40 votes

What exactly is the Bible?

I'm writing this because in the last week, not just only DP, but I have had people argue for their beliefs of various topics, ranging from anarchy to minarchy, and more. But people keep telling me they hate Christians because Christians want and expect everyone to be slaves.

There seems to be a lot of confusion about this so I wanted to clear something up.

I will say first I completely accept your beliefs, if you do not wish to accept Christianity that's fine, but I have to set something straight so people can stop hatemongering and spreading the wrong message.

The Bible is not a book of tyranny. it is not a book that says, "You WILL obey God." It says, "You should obey God."

Throughout the whole Bible, the message of Liberty is spread. It says that man was meant to rule, and not each other, but over the earth and be caretakers of it. Man is NOT meant to be slaves to any man, and definitely not slaves to God. Each man has his own free will to choose.

The Bible does ask for submission. However to submit is not to be enslaved, it is to willingly serve. You will find that serving others inspires others to serve you. All of the principles of Bill of Rights and dare I say, yes, the Declaration of Independence and natures law, can be directly pulled from the Bible.

I just wanted to clarify that, because many seem to think the Bible is the cause of war. I guess if that's true, than so is Liberty. Because liberty and freedom is exactly what the Bible teaches us to take part in. Just for the record, it also teaches us to stay out of entangling alliances.



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Hell is God's property.

Rev.1:18 "I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. "

Christ Jesus has the KEYS....

Again, I have enjoyed reading your replys...God is actually using you as a sharpening rod right now and I give Him all the glory.

Jesus is the saviour of the WHOLE WORLD, "As in Adam all die, so too in Christ ALL shall be made alive." (ICor.15:22) All means all. The pagan 'hell' of literal fire & eternal torment is a lie and is SPIRITUAL TERRORISM. http://www.hopebeyondhell.net

Kind of

It's only God's insofar as He created all things.

However, he wants you to come to His Kingdom, but to get in you have to make a decision to enter of your own free will, so he gave you that too.

I guess He owns many estates, but he desires that you come to the estate named "God's Kingdom".

If you end up on another estate, He didn't send you there, you chose to go there.

Let's talk about *free will*

Do you agree with Rom.8:7-8?...."Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."

Do you also agree further on down in verses 20 & 21 "For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God."

Notice those bolded words.... MADE SUBJECT...NOT WILLINGLY....?

Notice also who made the creature subject...BY HIM (God).

God is SOVEREIGN...and it is His will alone that is done...not the will of man.(Eph.1:11)

We are His workmanship...and no one can boast that they CHOSE HIM...it was He that first loved us and chose us.

Jesus said that "If I be lifted up I will draw (greek *drag*) ALL men unto me."
It is all Him and all His work of drawing each and every person to Himself.

God is the one who softens and hardens hearts...remember Pharoah?

Lastly, I agree with the scriptures that Jesus is the possessor of the Keys to Hell and Death and as possessor He is owner and has the power to open and close the gates to whomsoever He wills.

The Kingdom of God is a topic for another time....smile... many believers think that because they are saved this AUTOMATICALLY makes them inheritors of the Kingdom of God but that is not true. Salvation is a free gift to ALL (and those who have received salvation are even now enjoying the blessings and benefits of the Kingdom for they have been translated out of the Kingdom of Darkness into the Kingdom of God's Son.... but to be an inheritor of the Kingdom of God...to rule and reign with Christ...one has to be qualified and found approved...and these are those that Jesus refers to as the OVERCOMERS.

Be blessed!

Jesus is the saviour of the WHOLE WORLD, "As in Adam all die, so too in Christ ALL shall be made alive." (ICor.15:22) All means all. The pagan 'hell' of literal fire & eternal torment is a lie and is SPIRITUAL TERRORISM. http://www.hopebeyondhell.net

Armenian or Calvinist

This is the age old mystery of how God works with our free will. Predestination or free will? It's nice that you are bringing up this important issue.

I think in the end, when we all get there, then we will find out how God really caused us to choose Him.

So to clarify....

Are you saying:
a) there is no free will?

or

b) there is free will?

If b), God must be the source since He is the creator, correct?

If a), I would prefer to not engage with you further. Thanks.

Both

There are wheels (wills) within the wheel (THE WILL). (Ez.1:16)

God is Sovereign. (THE WILL)

Man has free will. (will)

God is Sovereign. (THE WILL)

Ultimately, it is always God's will that is done. (Eph.1:11: Ex.7:3,13)

For out of Him and through Him and back INTO Him are all things. (Rom.11:36)

The blessings of Christ to you, FBI_Exposer

Jesus is the saviour of the WHOLE WORLD, "As in Adam all die, so too in Christ ALL shall be made alive." (ICor.15:22) All means all. The pagan 'hell' of literal fire & eternal torment is a lie and is SPIRITUAL TERRORISM. http://www.hopebeyondhell.net

GoodSamaritan's picture

A question for both of you

How is prophetic fulfillment ever possible if God has to work around our "free will" decisions? Here is an example of what I mean.

In Genesis 3:15, we see the first promise of a Messiah. Speaking to Satan after the Fall of Man, God said: "I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel."

Thousands of years passed before Jesus was born. Consider the billions of human "free will" decisions that must have taken place over those years and yet Christ was born, lived, died and rose again, exactly as foretold by numerous (over 300) detailed prophecies throughout the OT.

I don't see how "free will" is possible. The only explanation that seems reasonable to me is that God is in absolute control of every particle and every decision made within this Universe and there can be no deviation from His sovereign will. Claiming the solution is His foreknowledge of our choices begs the question and makes a mockery of His sovereignty because that would mean He's forced to work around us.

Ron Paul - Honorary Founding Father

It is a mystery...

...of how He works all things after the counsel of His OWN will.(eph.1:11)

The reason why I answered "Both" (to FBI_Exposure's question of do I believe in free will or no free will)....is because man does have free will up to a measure but ultimately God is Sovereign and it is His will that is done.

I have a brother in Christ who would completely disagree with me on this point of man having free will up to a "measure" (smiling) because he would argue that man has completely ZERO free will, that every step of man is ordered by the Lord (good, bad, and ugly) and while I totally agree with his position on our steps being ordered by the Lord,I still see how God gives man free will up to a 'measure'. Bottomline, it is a MYSTERY...and my personal position is I see how BOTH arguments of Sovereignty and Free Will are in HARMONY with one another...thus the 'wheels within THE wheel' statement written above.

Over and Over again in scripture we see how God was behind the scenes, moving in the hearts of people to bring about His will.

Here are a few to remember:
Joseph told his brothers that what they meant for evil God used for good and even directed them to do it.
God hardened Pharoah's heart to bring about the release of the children of Israel from Egypt.
Assyria was the rod that God used to bring discipline...and Assyria was completely unaware of it.

So, you will get no arguement from me regarding the Sovereignty of God.
He is King, Lord and Creator...and as Creator, is owner of all things.(Ps.2:8; Ez.18:4: Col1:16: Heb:1:2)

Be blessed, GoodSamaritan!

Jesus is the saviour of the WHOLE WORLD, "As in Adam all die, so too in Christ ALL shall be made alive." (ICor.15:22) All means all. The pagan 'hell' of literal fire & eternal torment is a lie and is SPIRITUAL TERRORISM. http://www.hopebeyondhell.net

If your argument is right....

then it leads to the conclusion that we are not responsible for our moral actions and choices. Then it means all our moral actions and choices are the results of God's will. This would lead to dangerous and unbiblical conclusions.

Free will has to be possible. If not, then there would have been no rebellion, no pride, no sin, and no fall.

Starting from Adam and Eve, they were given a choice. The manifestation of that choice was the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. So does everyone of us have that choice.

I think the mystery is that God is able to work in our hearts that there are people who willing surrendered their wills to His, and they became one with Him. That's what Christianity is about, to become one with Christ. It is a mystery indeed. To be in Christ, be part of Christ, yet still retain our individuality.

And Jesus was eventually born, all the prophesies fulfilled because many people were like Mary, who said, according to Your will, Lord!

GoodSamaritan's picture

Adam and Eve before the Fall

were in a different category from the rest of us. They had free will to choose good or evil because they had not yet become sinful by nature. The only reason someone who has been born again can sometimes do actual good (not sin) is because the Holy Spirit enables. Our flesh still has the sin nature. This is the constant war Paul talks about as between our spirit and flesh once we've been made alive in Christ.

I would say that we are responsible for our actions and choices because from our perspective we have free will, but from God's perspective we are completely helpless to do anything except what He wants us to do. His Spirit moves both believers and unbelievers to accomplish His goals without any deviation. He is eternally the same. There is no shadow of turning in Him (James 1:17).

Ron Paul - Honorary Founding Father

good points you make too--

especially your last one..."Mary, who said, according to Your will, Lord!"

That is the beauty right there...and that is the Kingdom Of God...the rule of God , within the heart, of yielding our hearts to Him, His will...becoming ONE in His will...that is the HARMONY.

His blessings to you, gsmiro!

Jesus is the saviour of the WHOLE WORLD, "As in Adam all die, so too in Christ ALL shall be made alive." (ICor.15:22) All means all. The pagan 'hell' of literal fire & eternal torment is a lie and is SPIRITUAL TERRORISM. http://www.hopebeyondhell.net

Estates

Is there an "estate" I can end up in that isn't heaven or hell?

Free market capitalism isn't right for America because it works better. It's right because it's free (and it works better).

I guess you'll find out...

...as we all will, right?

I pray you don't find out the hard way!

Don't know...

.... if it exists, it's clearly NOT on the property of God's Kingdom.

It's up to you if you want in God's Kingdom or not. His house rules are set forth and you know where to find them.

If you don't want in, like I said, good luck to you mate. You'll end up whereever you end up. Good luck and good journey to you!

How do you opt out.

If you don't like California's taxes, you can opt out and move to Nevada. If you don't like the USA's laws, you can opt out and move elsewhere. But what if you don't like God's laws? I keep asking how the Christian god is compatable with liberty, and you guys just keep saying that you can "choose" to follow him or not. However, if you choose not to follow him, you go to hell. According to this religion, you cannot opt out. So I ask again, and I'd like an answer to the opt out question, not just another deflection, How is God's rule over us consistent with liberty? Can you opt out of God's system? If you don't follow him, but you don't want to be eternally damned, can you simply opt out?

Free market capitalism isn't right for America because it works better. It's right because it's free (and it works better).

Nope

there is no opting out. You are part of the human race and part of God's creation. Can't opt out. Can only decide what you want to do with it.

Prove it.

Luckily, God isn't real, so I don't have to worry about "opting out" of his system.

Free market capitalism isn't right for America because it works better. It's right because it's free (and it works better).

If you don't want to get onto God's private property....

called God's "Kingdom of Heaven", what happens to you is your own issue. Good luck!

No different than access to any other private property.

If you think not being in the Kingdom is Hell, well maybe you should have thought about that.

If you do NOT think not being in the Kingdom is Hell, well I guess you'll find out for sure in a few years, right?!?!?

I got curious about this

I got curious about this because I couldn't recall Jesus ever actually talking about hell in the bible. I found the top Yahoo answer to the question of Jesus talking about hell to be:

"Jesus speaks specifically of hell in Matthew 5:22:
"But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother 'Raca,' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' is in danger of the fire of hell."

So much, however, depends on the translation and interpretation of the original language. Being only an avid reader of the Bible and not a scholar, I can only go by what I've read about the annotations for this particular verse - in my copy it has a footnote saying that the original word used for hell in the above scripture reference was a Greek word, "gehenna," which got its meaning from a gorge area near Jerusalem where the city trash was burned. Consequently, there was a perpetual fire there and came to be symbolic of ultimate punishment after death."

So it looks like the closest thing he ever got to saying was a trash dump on fire. Sounds pretty metaphorical if you ask me. I would venture to guess that the idea of a "hell" as it is thought of today is a construct of corrupt church bureaucracies meant to keep the masses in line. It is important to seperate the words of Jesus from all of the crap that came after that is against his teachings but claim to be churches. My favorite example of this is Matthew 6:5-6:
"When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you."

These are the first of about 25 specific references to hell

that Jesus made. All I did was type in the word hell on a bible search.

Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Mat 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Christians should not be warmongers! http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance87.html

Yes, Satan has been very clever. He doesn't want people

to believe there is a hell, so he's changing what God said. He did the same thing in Eden. old trick--don't fall for it

Christians should not be warmongers! http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance87.html

don't fall for idol worship either...

many have made the KJV into an idol.

Let it be perfectly understood that I have never said that there is no hell...what I have said and am saying is that the concept of THE PAGAN HELL of ETERNAL TORMENT with LITERAL FIRE is a lie straight from the PIT OF HELL and all those who spew forth its dogma are instruments of the Devil.

We are to show ourselves approved as workmen of the Word.

I would encourage you to spend time in prayer asking your Heavenly Father to show you the truth regarding the topic of eternal torment.
You don't need to be afraid to look at other translations of the Bible. The Holy Spirit is our teacher right?
If you humbly ask your Father to reveal the truth to you He will not lead you astray...if you ask for bread he will not give you a stone.

His peace, grace, and mercy to you.

Jesus is the saviour of the WHOLE WORLD, "As in Adam all die, so too in Christ ALL shall be made alive." (ICor.15:22) All means all. The pagan 'hell' of literal fire & eternal torment is a lie and is SPIRITUAL TERRORISM. http://www.hopebeyondhell.net

I don't worship the Bible, I worship the God of the Bible.

And therefore, I believe what God says. Not what this religion or that religion tells me He says, but what He actually says in His word. Anyone in the world can use this snippet or that from the Bible to "prove" themselves right. It is also very common to hear, "well, what this actually means is...." It means what it says and says what it means. I may not understand it all, but I believe it nonetheless.

God requires belief in the gospel to appropriate his payment. The lie that eternal torment does not exist is what will lead many to go there. God's justice is not terrorism.

Christians should not be warmongers! http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance87.html

Each of the three views of...

...the ultimate destiny of humanity finds verses in Scripture which, at least on the face of a straightforward and/or naive reading of the English translations, seem to support their framework.

The Eternal, Conscious Torment view starts off with the hell and judgement texts and tries to view or explain the more universalist 'problem' texts through that prism.

Universalists start off with the verses talking about all things being reconciled (Colossians 1, etc.) and look at the general flow of covenant, broken covenant, exile, restoration in Scripture, and then try to view the 'problem' hell texts, etc. through THAT prism.

Annihilationists start off with the verses that seem to indicate drastic finality to the judgement in the context of souls, etc. and view the other 'eternal' hell texts and the universalist texts through THAT prism.

I believe many in each camp are genuinely trying to base their theological framework on a solid, Scriptural foundation, but the effort of working with 'problem' texts is unavoidable in each case. That's where the 'devil is in the details' and where we need to get beyond surface readings of English translations to really be able to discern things. Not that I'm an expert in that, but I do find it interesting that the Greek phrases for 'eternal' or 'everlasting' can actually mean 'of the age to come', specifying not necessarily duration, but in what age it occurs. If that is the case, then you have to look to other areas of Scripture to fill in what the nature of the 'death of the age to come' and the 'life of the age to come' entail.

It is kind of sad, though, if you consider the Eternal, Conscious Torment and the Annihilationist views: Creation is eternally scarred by some pocket of sin and death...evil is never truly conquered in ALL of creation...AND God's will is mostly frustrated (since He does not desire any to be lost...I disagree very strongly with the Calvinists.)

I think the universalist view is a higher view of not only God's Love as truly never failing (I Cor 13), but also of God's will to redeem and reconcile us being ultimately fulfilled and not frustrated (His sovereignty). Plus, it is also compatible with free will/libertarian views, in that as a patient God allows people to repent into eternity, hell would eventually empty out as more and more people freely chose that route. So you might even end up with an 'eternal hell' burning away, with all of our old selves under eternal destruction, but with fewer and fewer in it, as they are transformed out of the old, into the new. Again...Colossians 1...ALL THINGS will be reconciled, whether in heaven or on earth! The end of the story is good! :)

So true, there are 3 views within Christianity

concerning the ultimate destiny of humanity... these views are:

1. Eternal Torment

2. Annihalation

3. Ultimate Redemption

The majority of Christians usually hold to one (or a combination) of these 3 views.

I totally agree with your statement, "we need to get beyond surface readings of English translations to really be able to discern things"

There was a time in my life where I thought the eternal torment viewpoint was correct based on what I read ( not only what I read but also what I would hear from the pulpit too.)
All I can say is that God is faithful--He continued to draw me to Himself and gave me a hunger for truth....for He is TRUTH. He was the one who revealed to me HIS VIEW---the view of every man, woman, & child being reconciled to Himself! (Col.1:20)
This is the TRIUMPHANT VIEW!
This is the view of His salvation to the uttermost!

I have been so BLESSED by all your writings--the Spirit of Wisdom is beautiful in you.

The blessings of the Most High to you!

Jesus is the saviour of the WHOLE WORLD, "As in Adam all die, so too in Christ ALL shall be made alive." (ICor.15:22) All means all. The pagan 'hell' of literal fire & eternal torment is a lie and is SPIRITUAL TERRORISM. http://www.hopebeyondhell.net

It's interesting...

...ever since I began studying the 'UR' or 'universalist' view, when I'm in church during worship, the lyrics about God/Christ with respect to ALL creation and His unfailing love, etc. just pop out at me in all kinds of ways, with new meaning. There is so much joy in discovering that the end of the story is not bittersweet.

Thanks for your insights and encouragement. :)

That is beautiful!

Thank you too, I have truly enjoyed reading your posts. :)

Jesus is the saviour of the WHOLE WORLD, "As in Adam all die, so too in Christ ALL shall be made alive." (ICor.15:22) All means all. The pagan 'hell' of literal fire & eternal torment is a lie and is SPIRITUAL TERRORISM. http://www.hopebeyondhell.net

Why are there ChristianWarMongers? hell has produced them

Those that have sat at the feet of the KJV (making an idol of it and never EVER questioning if any words in it could be untrue) and quoting the passages that you referenced above as being an accurate portrayal of the judgement of God....these are the modern day ChristianWarMongers and are no different than the Crusaders who said "God wills for Muslims to be killed".

If one believes that Hell is eternal, that Hell is literal fire,than that person has a FALSE IMAGE of God as a cruel, torturous, mean, evil sadist and has made God to be worse than Hitler, Mao, & Stalin combined.

Every person is made in the image of THEIR GOD....so for Warmongers these are those who do not blink at going to war,have no problems with drones dropping bombs on innocent families, and actually can say as Mike Huckabee did in the '07 campaign when asked what he would do if gunboats attacked an American Ship...he would blow them to the 'GATES OF HELL".
What a loving pastor! (sarcasm) God have mercy on him!

Eternal torment IS A LIE....and God is not a SPIRITUAL TERRORIST and all those who agree with eternal torment are teachers of Heresy and blaspheme the character of God and are maligning the work of Christ and His atonement.

I again encourage you to spend time IN the WORD (for He is a person) and ask Him his thoughts on eternal torment and reveal to you the truth.

His grace and mercy to you.

Jesus is the saviour of the WHOLE WORLD, "As in Adam all die, so too in Christ ALL shall be made alive." (ICor.15:22) All means all. The pagan 'hell' of literal fire & eternal torment is a lie and is SPIRITUAL TERRORISM. http://www.hopebeyondhell.net

God's love is not undermined by his justice.

If someone raped and killed my daughter, I would want justice done. It's in our nature as human beings to see justice accomplished.

God does love and pursue all human beings. He wants a relationship with us but our sin separates us.

I read a parable once about a benevolent king who ruled his people wisely and they all loved him. Well, almost all. There was a small group of rebels who secretly tried to overthrow his rule. The king had passed a law saying that anyone guilty of treason would have his eyes put out.

One day a young man was brought before the court to be tried for treason. Rumor had it that he was the ringleader of the rebels. The court lawyers had his face covered to assure that justice would be accomplished. The king heard the overwhelmingly incriminating evidence. When it came time to pass sentence the lawyers removed the hood to reveal the king’s own son.

With great restraint of his emotions, he announced he would pronounce judgment in twenty-four hours. During this time, word of the situation spread throughout the kingdom. There was much speculation about what the king would do. Some said he was such a just and righteous king, he would not only put out the son’s eyes, but have him executed as well. Others said He was so loving, he would yield to his feelings toward his son and free him unharmed. Some said he would elicit a promise of allegiance and then set aside the penalty of the law.

The king found himself in a dilemma. Having blinded others for the same offense, how could he make an exception for his son? People would no longer respect his rule. His son would probably even grow bolder in his rebellion. But, how could he shut off all feelings of love and compassion toward his own flesh and blood? Would life have any further meaning for a father?

Twenty four hours later, court was reconvened. The king was the last to enter the chamber. He was led blindfolded as his son had been the previous day, to the throne. He began recounting the evidence, and just as he began to pass sentence he reached up and slipped the hood from his head.

The audience fell back in revulsion as they saw the two gaping, bloody holes where royal eyes had once been. The king asked the people if general justice had been served. They agreed it had been. The king had found a way to be faithful to his law, maintaining its integrity, AND a way to satisfy his love for his son.

This, my friend, is what God has done for us sinful human beings. All he calls us to do is believe that His gift of love (Jesus Christ's death on the cross) is everything we need to save our souls.

Christians should not be warmongers! http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance87.html

Where have you seen in any of my posts that I disagree with

the atoning work of Christ Jesus?

Where?

It is my humble prayer that the words that have been typed through this keyboard have only exalted HIS TRIUMPHANT WORK OF ATONEMENT...glorifying Him and extoling His work of atonement which will reach and reach until He has saved to the UTTERMOST, rescuing every lost lamb and bringing them safely home to Father's house.

I do not put a limit on the atonement of Christ. I do not say that his atonement applies to those that are living but as soon as they die...TIMES UP...atonement has no validity, it is no longer sufficient.

It is those that preach a heresy of eternal torment that BLASPHEME the glorious work of atonement that my Lord and Saviour Christ Jesus as succored for EVERY MAN. How so? By putting a TIME LIMIT on how far his atonement can reach (only while a person is alive but not after death) AND in addition they say to the sinner after they die "there is no end to your punishment".

Nothing can seperate a person from the love of God...life can't and death can't.(Rom.chpt.8).

Does God hold us to a higher standard of forgiving our enemies while He sends those that have transgressed against Him to an ETERNAL torment of a literal fire?

Think, my precious friend....think.

Jesus is the saviour of the WHOLE WORLD, "As in Adam all die, so too in Christ ALL shall be made alive." (ICor.15:22) All means all. The pagan 'hell' of literal fire & eternal torment is a lie and is SPIRITUAL TERRORISM. http://www.hopebeyondhell.net