40 votes

What exactly is the Bible?

I'm writing this because in the last week, not just only DP, but I have had people argue for their beliefs of various topics, ranging from anarchy to minarchy, and more. But people keep telling me they hate Christians because Christians want and expect everyone to be slaves.

There seems to be a lot of confusion about this so I wanted to clear something up.

I will say first I completely accept your beliefs, if you do not wish to accept Christianity that's fine, but I have to set something straight so people can stop hatemongering and spreading the wrong message.

The Bible is not a book of tyranny. it is not a book that says, "You WILL obey God." It says, "You should obey God."

Throughout the whole Bible, the message of Liberty is spread. It says that man was meant to rule, and not each other, but over the earth and be caretakers of it. Man is NOT meant to be slaves to any man, and definitely not slaves to God. Each man has his own free will to choose.

The Bible does ask for submission. However to submit is not to be enslaved, it is to willingly serve. You will find that serving others inspires others to serve you. All of the principles of Bill of Rights and dare I say, yes, the Declaration of Independence and natures law, can be directly pulled from the Bible.

I just wanted to clarify that, because many seem to think the Bible is the cause of war. I guess if that's true, than so is Liberty. Because liberty and freedom is exactly what the Bible teaches us to take part in. Just for the record, it also teaches us to stay out of entangling alliances.



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I don't know if you received my email or not.

My family and I would like to meet fellow liberty minded believers in AR. Drop me a line through my contact page if you'd want to meet with us sometime. Thanks. :)

Christians should not be warmongers! http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance87.html

I'm sorry -- "none of it is accurate"

So out of God all things did not come? Because I said that.

If you do not believe in God - you do not go to Hell (forever)?
---Because that's in the Bible
---Are we still talking about the KJV Bible?

According to the Scripture Sola folks -- all Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus etc etc who ever lived are in Hell, right now, and those alive who do not find Jesus of the KJV (accept that he is Messiah) and commence to "believing" will find themselves in Hell for-ever and ever.

Are you saying THATS not true?

What kind of "believer" are you -- to your own whits end?

Jews (of the Old Testament) believe that when you die you are body-locked until Judgement Day (could be another millennia and has been a millennia of a millennia for all ancestors -- well 10 millennia for those who believe in creationism.). You are either body-locked in Joy (peace) or you are body-locked in Restlessness (distress - nightmare).

According to primitive motivational thinkers.

What part of what I wrote above is false? I guess it depends on the particular branch of Christian you are -- but it's all true according to Martin Luther -- so if you are the kind of christian who followed from the logic of Martin Luther than it's true for you too.

Why do you...

...limit the possibilities to either your dying with the lights going out forever, or being in eternal dismay under the 'whimsical pleasure of a cosmic dictator'? Would you be terribly disappointed if in fact you discovered that God is rather like the father of the prodigal -- willing to grant his son the freedom to pursue his own path and mess up, yet always waiting to meet you with outstretched arms to welcome you back? What if the idea that 'God IS love' is actually true?

I don't believe God's love for you has an expiration date, even if you die spitting on the very notion of such a God. Collosians 1 says that ALL things whether in heaven or on earth will be reconciled to God through Christ; it may be later on down the road, even beyond this earthly life after eons of wandering; but eventually you will understand that He is not a tyrant after all. Some of my fellow believers will be ready to 'stone' me for questioning the idea that some are eternally lost; but that notion of eternal, conscious torment doesn't jive with the overall pattern of the Bible: covenant, humanity breaking the covenant and bringing exile on itself, God restoring them from exile. Even Egypt, smitten with plagues, rises again in prophecy as an example of a restored nation with an altar to the Lord.

The harshness of the judgment and calamities and exiles in Scripture needs to be seen in the context of ultimate redemption, restoration of ALL creation. The end of the story is good.

History shows us what the "leaders" and "individuals" who adhere

to a literal interpritation of scripture are capable of.

I'm not "fine" with your belief or the one you teach your children that people of "other faith" and people of "no faith" will burn forever and ever in Hell.

How can you ever be "casual" with whom your child spends time -- what if they changed faith, what if they got-logic and stopped believing; would that throw you into a fit of worry (knowing their fate)?

If not, if you took a "I'll re-convert them later" approach, then you are not worried about Hell or are "hopeful" for another outcome then the ones outlined in the Bible -- which further means you are not a "true" believer; you are more a hobbyist pick-and-chose believer.

If you are a true believer then you would home-school (like we did -- though we are not "bible believers").

Notice I said bible believers (that includes any and all scriptures) -- although I like the metaphorical interpritations made from the oldest of scriptures -- Rig Veda and Bhagavad Gita) but those scriptures do not require "belief" they require "practice"

Great Question

Your "belief" of what God's Love is -- is not the love described in the Bible -- when the children were torn into 42 and 42 pieces by a she-bear just for "mocking" Christ; that's what God does to disobedient children, the God of the New Testament.

The God of the Old Testament is just as bad -- for sodomy he destroyed an entire city (two of them). Yet allowed, under the right circumstance, justifiable rape and slavery -- as long as you weren't too mean about it. How-to and When-to stone a person.

All in the Bible.

If you are a Catholic then you believe that all of Luther's Decendent-believers are in hell (actually no -- if they "get right" while in purgatory they can at least escape eternal damnation -- otherwise it's off-to-hell).

If you are a decendent-believer of Martin Luther then you believe all Catholics (that once lived) went straight to Hell -- As were all Jews, Muslims, Hindus, and Buddhists to just name 60% of the planet give-or-take).

If you have "other views" then understand that those with those views see you in the light of your fate!!!

Would you want your children spending time with people of "other faiths" -- if it does not scare you to no end, that your children might change faiths then you are not "one of those" believers -- you are an "amateur hobbyist believer"

If I thought, by wrong belief, my daughter-relative-wife were going to hell for-ever and ever (or going to purgatory for as-long-as-it-takes) I would be in a fit of worry.

If you find yourself whistling or otherwise happy in life, then you are not "that kind" of believer -- you are a happy-go-lucky believer, carefree.

People are not "worried" (about the hellish fate of others) because they don't really believe it or their hearts are of stone (they don't care as long as "they" are safe).

If I "believed" (truly) on the Bible I'd be in a fit of worry over every thought and activity in my childs life.

Thank God! I do not believe in a "literal" Bible -- which means I can (without concern).

This has nothing to do with compassion, generosity, kindness, or charity -- those are far far far older than any scripture (since every scripture discounts it's predecessor).

It seems as if...

...your approach here is to ignore all the Scripture that does expand on God's Love and to only focus on the judgements or other violent occurrences recorded there, ripped out of the broader context of ultimate reconciliation.

"For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies," declares the Lord GOD..." (Ezekiel 18:32; and the same idea is repeated in Ezekiel 18:23, 33:11)

He "desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (I Timothy 2:4)

"For by Him [Christ] all things were created, both in the heaven and on earth...It was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself...whether things on earth or things in heaven." (Colossians 1:16,19,20)

And here is a description of God's perfect Love for you:

"Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

"Love never fails...faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love." (I Corinthians 13:4-7,8,13)

Now regarding the bear episode: first off, it was actually recorded in the Old Testament as occurring while Elisha was traveling between locales (see II Kings 2:24), and it is arguably translated as 'young men' rather than 'little children'. It is in the probable context of a mob (there were 42 hurt/mauled by the bears, so probably a lot more than that were there who fled without being hurt) coming out of the town of Bethel to violently assault him (by the way, I understand that Bethel was a major center of Baal worship at the time, involving human sacrifice, etc.; not a happy place.) All this to say that it probably wasn't the 'sunshine and lollipop' brigade that you seem to picture.

That said -- yes, there is plenty of death and suffering at the hands of God's wrath and judgement, either directly or indirectly, recorded in the Bible as having occurred, and as yet to come (assuming those who take Revelation, Daniel etc. as involving things not yet fulfilled are correct). But again, you are ignoring (or unaware of) all of the counter verses which talk about the restoration of nations and people, and ultimately ALL THINGS in creation, after the judgements and exiles.

I am worried about people bringing down suffering on themselves due to the consequences of their actions or experiencing it at the hands of others. If you hold out the hope that someone can recover fully from a stroke after long rehabilitation, does that mean you don't care that they went through it or that you don't care about helping others understand how to possibly prevent it? Just because I hold out the hope that despite growing tyranny in the world, Liberty will triumph again at some point -- does that mean I don't care whether people go through the suffering under such a tyranny in the meantime?

Just because I have the ultimate hope that a God whose love never fails will indeed reconcile ALL THINGS in heaven or on earth (straight from the Bible), doesn't mean I minimize the suffering and the pain and the wandering through the wilderness that many will face, perhaps even for eons, until they "come to the knowledge of the truth" and stop wallowing in the pigpen of self-induced misery, like the prodigal, and return home to the Father who is waiting with open arms.

And to all those who say 'what about the eternal fire and punishment and death?': I say, yes indeed, the 'old man' will pass away and remain in eternal judgement, while the 'new man' will rise like a pheonix from the ashes to find God's eternal love unquenchable.

Rome recognizes most protestant baptisms.

So the purgatory thing would apply to them same as any Catholic.

I was blessed by all that you wrote

Thank you. What a treasure you are.

Jesus is the saviour of the WHOLE WORLD, "As in Adam all die, so too in Christ ALL shall be made alive." (ICor.15:22) All means all. The pagan 'hell' of literal fire & eternal torment is a lie and is SPIRITUAL TERRORISM. http://www.hopebeyondhell.net

Thanks :)

I'll have to check out that hopebeyondhell.net website, too.

'O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?' :)

I would challenge

your base assumptions of the tenants of the Bible. But, the great thing about being a Libertarian is that I am OK with you believing what you want! Honestly, it bothers me not :) The certain tenants I would say the bible puts out there are 1) God exists 2) God is perfect 3) God created all things 4) Because God is the creator and is perfect we owe him our perfect obedience 5) We are unable to perfectly obey God 6) Since God is perfect he provided a substitute to satisfy divine judgement for our failures 7) This substitute is Jesus 8) We have Jesus 'represent' us before God on the basis of faith, not based on works

"Be a listener only, keep within yourself, and endeavor to establish with yourself the habit of silence, especially on politics." -Thomas Jefferson

I'm fine with your "tenants" -- mine are not born from Dogma

so they are alterable -- plus I see them as more-or-less the same as yours.

Here's the problem:

Saying that the Bible says "this" or the Bible says "that" is not that easy. The Bible contains many things, but you have to know how to interpret it. This is called hermeneutics and it is not even necessarily a religious thing, it is a academic thing.

Let me give you an example, you may read a recipe book. It may say in one place "add 1 tsp of salt" and in another it may say "add 3 tablespoons of salt". You may say, "See! it contradicts itself! It's flawed and wrong!" My point is you have to understand who wrote it, who was the audience, why was it written and the context. And then ask questions like, 'is there any amplifying information we've been given to help understand this?'.

This principle of sound hermeneutics applies to all books, and all religious texts. People (including myself) should not be so quick to claim they know what the Bibles says or does not say. (P.S. I have a MA in Biblical Studies for full disclosure).

"Be a listener only, keep within yourself, and endeavor to establish with yourself the habit of silence, especially on politics." -Thomas Jefferson

SteveMT's picture

Is this the way to enternity?

...Correctly interpreting and deciphering whether the Almighty meant 1 or 3 tablespoons of salt by your example. Maybe taking the average of 2 tablespoons of salt in the right one. Who knows for sure? The point is would the God of the universe communicate with us in such an indirect and nonsensical way? Why would God be so in-your-face direct with Moses, Samuel, Saul, and even the whore-monger Solomon, and be so indirect with us. How do we tell the difference between true realization and hearsay? Miracles are for those involved in them only. Salvation should not be based on whether others believe them or not. If God wants to talk to me, then he will. He will not talk to you first about me and you relay that message my way.

What a gracious God,

to leave us instructions for life which appear to be open to interpretation, then burn us in hell if we interpret them wrong.

Free market capitalism isn't right for America because it works better. It's right because it's free (and it works better).

snakepit22 --thank you for asking good questions

I've been reading many of your reply's to others and you have received ZERO answers to your sincere questions. The answers you have received have been HOLLOW, sarcastic, and full of death---certainly not LIFE giving and for this I am grieved and ask your forgiveness on behalf of those who profess Christ as their Saviour.

First, I want to answer your essential question of "how can God be gracious and full of love if He is going to torture and burn the majority of His creation for eternity?"

God is love, His nature is love, and all that He does flows from His nature of LOVE.

I categorically deny and repudiate the teaching of eternal torment and agree with the Apostle Paul that the teaching of 'damnation' is HERESY. (2Pet.2:1)

The teaching of eternal torment is heresy. This teaching originated with Augustine...He could not read Greek and because of this he interpreted many verses with the words 'fire', destruction', ernal/everlasting' through the Latin language and thus the error of eternal torment was spread far and wide.

Is there judgement? Yes, for God is just and His judgements are to so that people will learn righteousness (to do and BE right with God) and his corrections are temporary in length and redemptive in nature.(Is.26:9; Matt:12:20-21)
Jesus said that if " I be be lifted up (on the cross) that I will draw (Greek *drag*) ALL MEN UNTO ME".
All means all...not a few...all.

This will happen to each person in due time as grace is given for that individual person to receive the life of Christ freely given to them. (1cor15:21-22).

Mercy TRIUMPHS over judgement!

Love never fails.

Jesus Christ death on the cross has paid the price for every mans sin....for the WAGES of sin is death but the free gift is life eternal through Christ Jesus.
Praise His Holy Name!.
The blessings of Christ to you!

Jesus is the saviour of the WHOLE WORLD, "As in Adam all die, so too in Christ ALL shall be made alive." (ICor.15:22) All means all. The pagan 'hell' of literal fire & eternal torment is a lie and is SPIRITUAL TERRORISM. http://www.hopebeyondhell.net

Just to correct your post:

2 Peter 2:1 is not the writing of the Apostle Paul. It is the writing of the Apostle Peter. Also, while Augustine could not read Greek, I can. And the teaching of an eternal judgment is not antithetical to the teaching of the Bible, even Paul (or Peter). Please understand that is possible to hold to a loving God and a God who is just. These two things are reconcilable. What you have set up is a false dichotomy; that God cannot be both loving and just. So, I respectfully disagree with your post.

"Be a listener only, keep within yourself, and endeavor to establish with yourself the habit of silence, especially on politics." -Thomas Jefferson

Since you read Greek then you know the word "aion" right?

You also know that aion and the Hebrew word "olam" are the same right?

.......

But, for all those who do not read Greek here are the meanings:

Aion is the Greek word meaning "an age " thus denoting a period of TIME. The greek word 'aion' is where our english word 'eon' comes from. This word 'aion' is mostly translated "eternal", "everlasting", and for "ever" in the King James Version. However, there are other translations that have correctly translated "aion" as "age-abiding" "age-during" or "eon".
Robert Young, author of the highly respected Young's Analytical Concordance, in his literal translation of the Bible, always translates it "age" and never as "everlasting', or 'eternal'.

In the Septuagint the Greek word, 'aion', is used to translate the Hebrew word "olam". If we want to get a correct understanding of the New Testament meaning of "aion" then we must have the original meaning of "olam" in the Old Testament.

Here are just a few passages in the Old Testament referring to "olam" showing clearly that it cannot mean 'never ending'/'eternal':

** Jonah was in the fish forever (olam). But only until he left 3 days later (Jon.1:17;2:6)

** Sodom's fiery judgement is eternal (olam). But only until God returns them to their former estate (Ez.16:53-55; Jude 7).

** The Mosaic covenant is everlasting (olam). But only until it vanishes away. (Lev.24:8; Heb.8:7-13)

** The leprosy of Naaman shall cling forever (olam). But only until his death, of course.(2King5:27)

** God dwells in Solomon's temple forever (olam). But only until it is destroyed (2Ch.7:16;1King8:13;93)

** Animal sacrifices were to be offered forever (olam). But only until they were ended by the work of Christ (2Ch.2:4; Heb.7:11- Heb.10:18).

So, as we can see, "OLAM" does NOT mean "eternal" though it can last a very long time.

Now let it be clearly understood that I do believe in the justice of God and that He is both JUST and LOVE...for He is ONE...and that all of His judgements are purposed in love to bring about correction so that people will no longer live in sin (for sin is enslavement) but that they will learn righteousness and be set free. His judgements are TEMPORARY and not for eternity.

It is a sad truth that the majority of Christendom teaches that God will send most of humanity to an eternal Hell of literal fire while the chosen FEW get to 'go to heaven' for eternity....this is not scriptural and produces fear and blasphemes the character of My Father....for the earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof and THEY WHO DWELL THEREIN.
As in Adam all die, so too in Christ ALL SHALL BE MADE ALIVE, each man in his own order. (1Cor.15;21-22).
Is there Hell? Many are living in it right now while they walk on earth...but even in Hell...God is there too..."If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there." (Ps.139:8).

Nothing can separate a person from His love...life can't and death can't.(Rom.8:35-39)

Scripture must interpret scripture. It is not man that interprets scripture.

This is where the problem has always been...the carnal mind of man interpreting scripture.

The letter kills but the Spirit gives life.

Anyone can read the dead letter...and usually those who do are reading it through a literal lens...but they have not been given the understanding by the mind of the Spirit...for it is only the Spirit that opens the eyes to see, the ears to hear, and the heart to recieve and understand,

I thank you for bringing to my attention my mistake of assigning to Paul what Peter wrote (I tried to edit and correct my origianl post but the edit button was not made visible).

I stand by what Peter wrote....that preaching of a gospel of damnation is HERESY.
It is a lie and this lie is meant to malign the character of my Father and the glorious atoning work of His Son and my Lord...Christ Jesus.

Jesus will save to the UTTERMOST!

His love will conquer ALL....and EVERY knee will bow to him....not out of fear or out of a forced obligation but because His love has reached to the deepest part of their being and has washed them so deeply in His love, acceptance, joy, peace, forgiveness that they will WANT to out of deep heartfelt gratitude.

This is my Lord...this is my God....the most glorious Saviour of ALL MANKIND and I will contend for THE FAITH of the RESTORATION OF ALL MANKIND because He is so worthy of all the glory!

His peace and grace to you.

(For more information and deeper study please go to HopeBeyondHell.net and you can download the book Hope beyond Hell for free-- much of what I quoted above is from this book).

Jesus is the saviour of the WHOLE WORLD, "As in Adam all die, so too in Christ ALL shall be made alive." (ICor.15:22) All means all. The pagan 'hell' of literal fire & eternal torment is a lie and is SPIRITUAL TERRORISM. http://www.hopebeyondhell.net

Yes

But I don't think or read it as Aion, that is the Enlighization of the word αἰώνιος. I agree with most of what you said, things like 'Jesus will save to the UTTERMOST!' We must use Scripture to interpret scripture, ect.

A few things though. The Septuagint is helpful at times, but the original Hebrew is much to be preferred. The meaning of עוֹלָם (olam) to my knowledge was never meant to be forever. The fact that is transated to Aion in the Septuagint is a mistake by those translators. The Septuagint, after all, is not divine but it is a translation of men.

A few questions for you that I would honestly like to hear your answer:

*Since you agree that God is just, how is divine justice satisfied on those outside of Jesus?

*Why, on what basis, do you believe that the judgement of God are temporary (as you said in the post)?

*If God's judgment is temporary, why did Jesus come at all? Why did he die? What did his death accomplish, if anything?

Thanks for reading :)

"Be a listener only, keep within yourself, and endeavor to establish with yourself the habit of silence, especially on politics." -Thomas Jefferson

Thanks for asking, here are the answers to your questions

You ask, "Why, on what basis, do you believe that the judgement of God are temporary (as you said in the post)?

The foundational truth is based upon God's will, first and foremost.

1. It is God's will to save all mankind--"“,Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.” I Tim. 2:4.
The word 'will' in this verse is not a wishy-washy, maybe-might...NO...it is CONCRETE...Thayer's Concordance gives the definition as "to will, to be determined, to be resolved".

2. No power can defeat his will. “Thy will be done.” Matt. 6:10. “He doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?” Dan. 4:35. “He worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.” Eph. 1:11. The will of God, then, will be done. No power can defeat it.

3. All things will be reconciled to God. "“And having made peace through the blood of the cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in heaven or things on earth.” Col. 1:20. The 'all things' here is understood to mean 'all mankind'--Thayer's Concordance gives the definition as " individually
1a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things,everything".
Strong's Concordance gives the definition as " all, any, every, the whole--anyone, everyone".

You ask, "If God's judgment is temporary, why did Jesus come at all? Why did he die? What did his death accomplish, if anything?"

Jesus Christ is the agent of God to accomplish this great work of reconciling ALL TO GOD and this is why He came.“God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.” II Cor. 5:19. It is God’s purpose to save all by Jesus Christ, and we are informed that God’s pleasure shall prosper in his hand. Isa. 53.

Jesus tasted death for EVERY MAN (Heb.2:9)
Why?
Because the wages of sin is death...not eternal torment...but DEATH.(Rom.6:23)

For what purpose did He do this?
1.) He gave himself as a ransom so that ALL might receive eternal LIFE, and this is a free gift to all to be testified in DUE TIME. (1Tim.2:6; Rom.6:23; 1Cor.15:21-22; 1John 2:2)

2.) He was sent to take AWAY the sins of the world, to DESTROY the works of the Devil and to make each and every person a NEW CREATION in Christ.
(John 1:29 ; 1John3:8 ; 2Cor.5:17)

3,) Jesus came preaching the good news (gospel)...what is this good news? THE KINGDOM OF GOD! " Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God"(Mark 1:14)

Where is this Kingdom? Is it in some far away place in the universe? Jesus tells us the answer "Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

The Kingdom of God is to be experienced right here and right now by WHOSOEVER WILL....Jesus continues to say..'Repent (take a new mind, the mind of Christ) for the Kingdom is AT HAND" It is at hand...it is present, it is NOW.

The Kingdom of God is the RULE OF GOD within the heart of the believer.

Oh how wonderful it is to be ruled by God...for His Kingdom to come within the heart...to be ruled by the LAW OF THE SPIRIT OF LIFE IN CHRIST JESUS...because His law sets us free from the law of sin and death!

Finally you ask, "Since you agree that God is just, how is divine justice satisfied on those outside of Jesus?"

First, I would like to address the point you made about those "outside of Jesus?"
It is my belief that no man, woman or child is outside of Jesus and my reasons for believing this are found in the following scriputes“I am the light of the world.” John 8:12. “That was the true light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.” John1:9. “But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.” I Cor. 11:3.
" For of him , and through him, and unto him, are all things. To him be the glory for ever. Amen." (Rom.11:36)
No one is outside of Jesus...those that have not been quickened by His Spirit might not realize that they are OF HIM yet...but in due time they will and rejoice!

Secondly, regarding the rest of your question about "how is divine justice satisfied", my first and foremost answer is CHRIST ...we are told in the book of Romans chpt. 8 that the WAGES of sin is death....and so Christ Jesus offered himself as the sin offering for every man (Heb.9:11-15).
Now, if by asking how is divine justice satisfied you mean 'what does that look like to those that die and face the judgement of God'? I have no answer for you.

I do know that those who have never heard the message of reconcilition will hear it in DUE TIME..."He gave himself a ransom for all to be testified in
due time."
(1Tim.2:6)

Nothing can separate a person from his love...,life can't nor DEATH. (Rom.8)

Jesus descended into the lower parts of the earth (SHEOL/HELL) and took captivity CAPTIVE...He went and preached to the prisoners in Hell and gave each of them the grace to repent and receive His love, forgiveness, redemption, and LIFE....He did this then and He is the same yesterday, today and forever!! (Eph.4:8-10; Ps.68;18; 1Pet.3:19-20; Heb.13:8).

Obviously, those that were disobedient in the days of Noah had been in Sheol(hell) for hundreds and hundreds of years (thousands)...and yet the scriptures tell us that a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day. What was it like for them in prison? I have no idea...God is the Judge and he is the one who dispenses the appropriate correction for each of those who have sinned and rejected His love, and yet all of His corrections are purposed in love and are redemptive in nature and temporary in length.

Bottomline...LOVE NEVER FAILS...for GOD is love...and God never fails.

Jesus has the keys of Hell and death...and He has made a way for ALL TO RETURN to Father's house.

“And the ransomed of the Lord shall return and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.” Isa. 35:10

Be blessed!

Jesus is the saviour of the WHOLE WORLD, "As in Adam all die, so too in Christ ALL shall be made alive." (ICor.15:22) All means all. The pagan 'hell' of literal fire & eternal torment is a lie and is SPIRITUAL TERRORISM. http://www.hopebeyondhell.net

I don't know any Christian church....

....that teaches that *God* sends anyone to hell.

Can you provide a source?

People send themselves OR people are just not admitted into the Kingdom.

Church is a PEOPLE, not a physical building...correct?

So based on the truth that PEOPLE are the church ....here are some quotes from a few PEOPLE that have taught and perpetrated the LIE of eternal torment in a pagan hell.

Tertullian "At that greatest of all spectacles, that last and eternal judgment how shall I admire, how laugh, how rejoice, how exult, when I behold so many proud monarchs groaning in the lowest abyss of darkness…"

Jonathan Edwards "Reprobate infants are vipers of vengeance,which Jehovah will hold over hell, in the tongs of his wrath, till they turn and spit venom in his
face!"
"The view of the misery of the damned will double the ardour of the love
and gratitude of the saints of heaven."

Thomas Aquinas "That the saints may enjoy their beatitude more thoroughly, and give more abundant thanks for it to God, a perfect sight of the punishment of the damned is granted them."

Here are some more LENGTHIER QUOTES from noted theologians of which many DENOMINATIONS derive their doctrine from:

Jonathan Edwards (A Calvinist of the "Great Awakening" fame.
Newspapers reported people leaving his sermons and committing suicide from
the fear he instilled in them.)

"The world will probably be converted into a great lake or liquid globe of fire, in which the wicked shall be overwhelmed, which will always be in tempest, in which they shall be tossed to and fro, having no rest day and night, vast waves and billows of fire continually rolling over their heads, of which they shall forever be full of a quick sense within and without; their heads, their eyes, their tongues, their hands, their feet, their loins and their vitals, shall forever be full of a flowing, melting fire, fierce enough to melt the very rocks and elements; and also, they shall eternally be full of the most quick and lively sense to feel the torments; not
for one minute, not for one day, not for one age, not for two ages, not for a
hundred ages, nor for ten thousand millions of ages, one after another, but
forever and ever, without any end at all, and never to be delivered."

John Calvin (Who had some of his theological enemies burned to death in green slow-burning wood.):

Calvin describes hell as: "Forever harrassed with a dreadful tempest, they shall feel themselves torn asunder by an angry God, and transfixed and penetrated by mortal stings, terrified by the thunderbolts of God, and broken by the weight of his hand, so that to sink into any gulf would be more tolerable than to stand for a moment in these terrors."

The Reverend C. H. Spurgeon in his sermon "Sermon on the Resurrection of the Dead":

"When thou diest, thy soul will be tormented alone; that will be a hell for it, but at the day of judgment they body will join they soul, and then thou wilt have twin hells, thy soul sweating drops of blood, and thy body suffused with agony. In fire exactly like that which we have on earth thy body will lie, asbestos-like, forever unconsumed, all they veins roads for the feet of pain to travel on, every nerve a string on which the devil shall forever play his diabolical tune of 'Hell's Unutterable
Lament.''' (Quoted from Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin)

There are hundreds of thousands of other Church leaders throughout the centuries who could be quoted expressing similar thoughts to the ones above listed.

Hopefully you are not one of them.

If so I would ask you to repent and seek the face of of your Heavenly Father so that He can reveal to you His love...His mighty love given through His glorious gift of His Son Christ Jesus.

Eternal torment is a LIE and is spiritual terrorism. Plain and simple.

He who the Son sets free is free in deed.

Perfect Love cast out all fear...for fear has torment.

God is love and love never fails...and He will save to the uttermost!

Praise and Glory to the name above all names....Christ Jesus!

Jesus is the saviour of the WHOLE WORLD, "As in Adam all die, so too in Christ ALL shall be made alive." (ICor.15:22) All means all. The pagan 'hell' of literal fire & eternal torment is a lie and is SPIRITUAL TERRORISM. http://www.hopebeyondhell.net

I still don't believe.....

...but this makes so much more logical sense to me than what many Christians believe. A God like you explain him makes sense to me. A God like many believe, seems evil, and unlikely to me.

Free market capitalism isn't right for America because it works better. It's right because it's free (and it works better).

thanks snakepit22

I really do appreciate your sincerity--I feel His love for you...and I know that He will make Himself REAL to you in due time.
His blessings of peace, mercy and grace to you!

Jesus is the saviour of the WHOLE WORLD, "As in Adam all die, so too in Christ ALL shall be made alive." (ICor.15:22) All means all. The pagan 'hell' of literal fire & eternal torment is a lie and is SPIRITUAL TERRORISM. http://www.hopebeyondhell.net

This statement is so ignorant.

There are linguistic differences, cultural differences, temporal differences. Do you have no appreciation whatsoever of cultures, languages and history? It's not a religious thing. As the person you replied to said, it's as much academic as anything else.

What was the measure of a cubit in 2000 BC? 1000 BC? 0AD, 1000 AD? and what it equals today?
There is nothing religious to this question.

Do you know? Is it the same? If you cannot answer that question you should not be replying, particularly not with such snark. It only reveals your own ignorance.

?

So, if I don't know what God meant by a cubit, or what other cultures meant, or how much it means now, then I shouldn't be commenting on trusting my life and salvation to a book which is ambiguous at best, and misinterpreted,translated or downrights ficticious?
I understand the issue is academic. It is difficult to say what the bible means when it has been translated and reinterpreted and when different cultures much less individual people read and comprehend things differently. Having said that, it would be tough to program my DVD player which such sketchy instructions, yet Christians are supposed to trust their lives to something so flimsy? I'd rather not.
As far as it being academic, if anyone who took the bible as truth, had an ounce of concern for being academic about their pursuit of truth, they'd be no more taking the bible as godspell than they woudl the latest issue of Spiderman. How's that for snark!

Free market capitalism isn't right for America because it works better. It's right because it's free (and it works better).

The right to be wrong cannot be infringed.

That's individual liberty with personal responsibility. Thinking for oneself is fun.

Free includes debt-free!

That's not personal responsibility.

When god burns you for being wrong (according to him), that isn't liberty.

Free market capitalism isn't right for America because it works better. It's right because it's free (and it works better).

BULL

It is if you CHOSE to participate.

Just like any contract you enter.

BTW, it's not that "God burns you", this is a lie and misrepresentation.

It's if you want access to God's PRIVATE PROPERTY, which is the Kingdom of Heaven, then you must abide by the proprietor's rules.

How is this ANY different than any libertarian belief of private property? If you want in, then you have to play by house rules or the house can toss you out.

It's perfectly libertarian in fact.

I call BS

Nice attempt, but it isn't like trying to join a country club. If the local country club doesn't let me in because I don't abide by their rules, they don't throw me in jail. Nice try, but the God of the bible doesn't simply have a country club you can get in if you play by his rules. He either lets you in, or you burn in hell.

Free market capitalism isn't right for America because it works better. It's right because it's free (and it works better).

You are now deliberately misrepresenting.

God doesn't "throw you in jail" nor into the fire. If any throwing occurs it is one throwing oneself.

God owns his own house and property. If you want on, he gives you the house rules. If you don't that's your own issue. It's about as simple as that. And it's completely libertarian and consistent with private property rights.

I don't know where your got your information on God or the bible or whatever, but it's not accurate. Have you READ the bible or are you making it up as you go along?