40 votes

What exactly is the Bible?

I'm writing this because in the last week, not just only DP, but I have had people argue for their beliefs of various topics, ranging from anarchy to minarchy, and more. But people keep telling me they hate Christians because Christians want and expect everyone to be slaves.

There seems to be a lot of confusion about this so I wanted to clear something up.

I will say first I completely accept your beliefs, if you do not wish to accept Christianity that's fine, but I have to set something straight so people can stop hatemongering and spreading the wrong message.

The Bible is not a book of tyranny. it is not a book that says, "You WILL obey God." It says, "You should obey God."

Throughout the whole Bible, the message of Liberty is spread. It says that man was meant to rule, and not each other, but over the earth and be caretakers of it. Man is NOT meant to be slaves to any man, and definitely not slaves to God. Each man has his own free will to choose.

The Bible does ask for submission. However to submit is not to be enslaved, it is to willingly serve. You will find that serving others inspires others to serve you. All of the principles of Bill of Rights and dare I say, yes, the Declaration of Independence and natures law, can be directly pulled from the Bible.

I just wanted to clarify that, because many seem to think the Bible is the cause of war. I guess if that's true, than so is Liberty. Because liberty and freedom is exactly what the Bible teaches us to take part in. Just for the record, it also teaches us to stay out of entangling alliances.




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If you a believer,

your mind is not consitently rational. So bringing rational to defend religion is lame. Consider just two things:

1. Money changers at the Temple were the only capitalist outlet besides trade. It was the most important outlet there at the time (like Wall Street today) to form PRICES for trading on global level. Jesus and others could not understand why conversion rate one day was different from another. Jesus, instead of using Libertarian principles, used brutal force instead.

2. The main idea of the New Testement is that the end of world is coming soon. All Apostles believed that the end will be during their lifetime. No practical career or long-term investment was needed. If Jesus were honest and had told Apostles he would not be back for another 2,000 years, the latter would had switched to another rabbi.

Cyril's picture

Shameless plugs for both believers & non-believers in the Bible

Shameless plugs for both believers & non-believers in the Bible.

Well, I've said everything I had to say on the Bible per se (and why we ought to defend the right for people to continue reading it - FOR THEMSELVES).

Now, I take it that both believers and non-believers in the Bible who bother posting on here at least care at minima about morality, A BIG PART of which pertain to the restoration of sound money, here, in this country, these days...

So, feel free to contribute and help me (us) and challenge/denounce THE FRAUDSTERS :

Plug 1 (best location to speak out = the fraudster's blog, himself):

http://www.dailypaul.com/271915/i-have-posted-this-on-mr-kru...

Plug 2 (share your own thoughts):

http://www.dailypaul.com/272049/my-four-simple-questions-to-...

Let's continue to build up our argumentative content for our future debates with / to debunk the collectivist statists' plans - aka the Spreadsheets Worshippers!

For Liberty!

Peace.

P.S.
Oh, why do I care / why is this relevant to the Bible, anyway?

Here is why:

http://www.dailypaul.com/272026#comment-2927712

... in a few lines nutshell.

"Cyril" pronounced "see real". I code stuff.

http://Laissez-Faire.Me/Liberty

"To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." -- Confucius

Those are the most ludicrous arguments I've ever read on DP

and that says a lot.
Kitchens weren't designed to sleep in.
Bathrooms weren't designed to cook food in.
Bedrooms weren't designed to poop in.
Houses of Worship weren't designed to sells goods in.
Your eyes don't hear and your ears don't see, but according to you that's exactly what they should be capable of doing.
Your brand of 'Liberty_First' doesn't impress me.

If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.
James Madison

You use "design"

often, like wise central planners do. But I see no real arguments for using force. People at the temple needed the service of the money changers, otherwise they cannot perform religious duties (they needed to buy or exchange animals and other things.) Jesus did not build the temple. People who built it and the high priests understood capitalism better than Jesus.

How about the protection money paid to Romans from poor box?

The Empire's money changers provided Ceasar's coin for the taxpayer.

Why did the Temple authorities allows this atrocity?

This had nothing to do with Free Trade or Market operations. It was a kowtowing to Empire to maintain political control.

The reward for betraying Israel was the destruction of the Temple.

Free includes debt-free!

But

money changers were before Rome and taxes. You do not understand that before and during Jesus time, it was animal sacrifices not prayers that were needed. People who came from different countries needed the common exchange mechanism. At the time they left for home, they needed to exchange things, traded or bartered during their stay, for currency of their home country.

The exchange was FOR entrance to the temple.

It wasn't their side business, it was the PRIMARY PURPOSE for their presence, for better or worse.

You are simply uneducated

Temle attendence was not about pure prayer, but sacrificing animals. People needed to buy animals. Jesus did not provide "free stuff." Animals were delivered and exchanged by people. Suppliers and customers were linked by the common media - money.

Correct.

Their PURPOSE was to serve as an exchange for those GOING TO THE TEMPLE.

Jesus was not the first.

Book of Nehemiah

"Non-Jews were permitted to conduct business inside Jerusalem on the Sabbath and to keep rooms in the Temple. Greatly angered, he purified the Temple and the priests and Levites and enforced the observance of the law of Moses."

Free includes debt-free!

I say

if you believe in a wise central planner, follow Jesus. If you trust people on the ground who built the temple and made sacrifices, then they should decide. No force is justified since the high priests and the majority approved the money-changers as doing useful service.

But your argument is about "morality", not reason - like apply force against gays since that is immoral. You see, you failed on all fronts of argument here.

Cyril's picture

Okay. Now, that is just insulting.

Okay. Now, that is just insulting:
"I say, if you believe in a wise central planner, follow Jesus."

Have you even read the Bible?

I don't like quoting it too much, as I consider honest people should have made the effort of researching by themselves. Common sense.

Where can you find a quote of Jesus himself as he self-proclaimed along the lines of "Follow me, I have a plan for your life, how to live it, every second of it"? Nowhere.

That's not what he said. Not what he taught people about. In the current Bible's records we have (but maybe you have another version) he never talked about that. He taught about people living their lives, WHATEVER THOSE MAY CONSIST IN, WHATEVER THOSE MAY DEPEND UPON, by following HIS example of how HE lived HIS. In the main lines: thru self-reliance, honesty at home, honesty at work, honesty at trade, compassion, understanding, love for others, including our enemies. I'll stop here in the enumeration.

The prophets DID mention "the plans" of the Lord - many times - mostly alluding to the salvation for those who will/would believe, have Faith, in His Word - in His principles, and "His Father's" - e.g., the Golden Rule, TO START WITH.

On the other hand, MANY, many other quotes WARN US in the moral hazards, in the HARM that will come from putting one's Faith only in the plans OF OTHER MEN.

Psalm 20:4
May he give you the desire of your heart and make all your plans succeed.

Psalm 33:11
But the plans of the Lord stand firm forever, the purposes of his heart through all generations.

Psalm 140:4
Keep me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; protect me from men of violence who plan to trip my feet.

Proverbs 12:5
The plans of the righteous are just, but the advice of the wicked is deceitful.

Thank you for your paying better attention to your statement, next time.

Are you trusting reason more than the Faith that some of us put in Christ and other Bible's principles? Fine.

Your choice. Please, though: do not defame the latter.

You wouldn't appreciate if I called you names for all to see and no one bothering/caring to defend your name and fame against that.

I care for His Name.

Thank you.

"Cyril" pronounced "see real". I code stuff.

http://Laissez-Faire.Me/Liberty

"To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." -- Confucius

You said Jesus overturned the moneychangers tables...

...because he didn't understand the free market and the moneychangers at the temple constituted the free market in exchange at the time.

That statement is FALSE.

The moneychangers were at the temple to help people get (right or wrong) what they needed to enter the temple.

In other words, you believed that a temple-based economy was a correct model for a free market exchange.

Which, naturally is absurd. Therefore, Jesus acted consistently with his belief and teaching that it was improper to make a profit on people's access to the temple.

Further, no temple, no money exchangers at the temple for Jesus to turn over their tables. In other words, your premise in the first place was false. In the second, your assessment of Jesus' understanding of the market was false.

And WHY were people trading things with the moneytraders?

To get what they needed FOR THEIR TEMPLE VISIT.

Not to go out into the market.

So, I guess you are saying it is correct to have a religion-based or temple-access based basis for the market?

That's a pretty bizarre argument.

The Temple

served only Jews at the time. Several times each year, on high holidays, all Jews were supposed to travel to Jerusalem and attend the Temple. Money changers were the global outlet - like currency exchange booth at the airport or city center. Jews traveled from different places with different money and different products.

Read some history.

They were there to EXCHANGE for the goods needed to ENTER THE TEMPLE.

That was their PURPOSE there, for better or worse.

There was no much prayer

in the Temple. Mostly animal sacrifices according to the Old Testiment itself. Just read.

Let's see you saw this post

Let's see you saw this post and figured it is your job to turn a persons faith away from God? Hmmm interesting

After reading your words I will burn my bible! NOT

Also rational? When you can explain all things to me then we can judge that comment... until then it will take faith and believing in the unknown.....

Nope

All people have ability to reason. But not all people use reason (rational thinking) all the time and many are not focused even when they use it.

A believer does not use his/her faculty of reason consitently. My arguments above are for that portion of reason that a believe is still able to use.

So just tell me one thing and

So just tell me one thing and I will believe all you have to say... Where did the universe come from? If you say big bang... where did the space for the bang come from.... How did it all start.... Give me a rational answer.... Some things are well beyond rational thought

You,

like many simple people, cannot take reality as it is. Human beings came from nature and the brain is the product of that nature. Therefore, reality is bigger than our brain. With our reason we can understand things more and more, but we will never know everything.

Back to your question. It is the same arguement like the one used 300 years ago "Who do you think creates thunder & lighting if not god?" I am fine that I do not know everything. That is not an argument for existence of hell, angels, god children.

Come from nature? Where did

Come from nature? Where did nature come from? Can you teach me anything? Thank you for your time. Yes I am a simple person not an Angel nor God.

You see

Rational is not compatible with a blind belief. You cannot rationally argue about a miracle, you can only blindly believe in it. The fact that we do not know everything does not rationally justify one blind belief over the other. Especially if proof is not there to convince everyone. In fact, the more people study, the more they go away from religion.

For example, who had created colors of natural objects (red, blue, orange), god or not? Well, if you study physics, then you know, nature has no colors. It is the product of our mind, nothing else.

I'm going to go with

I'm going to go with rational... there is a creator whom is so far advanced we can't even imagine. Unless you can prove different it is quite rational.

People move away from religion as morals decay. It's pretty hard to believe is God and bomb everyone in the world, abortion, cheating, Porn, Gay, and all the other things that have become the norm and even glorified. This country was once great when it had morals. Now not so much as we dwindle in sin and debt.

Think about it... When this county was built and grew into a great nation... Church attendance was very high... People had very strong morals... We didn't have government social programs folks and the church was the back bone... Now what do we have... War, Sin, and Debt... The decline appears to have started in the roaring 20's

So say you.

You know all believers and have judged the extent to which they utilize their God given reason?

You're AMAZING!

All you have to do is read

All you have to do is read the title to the post and pass by it. If I see a post that reads "What is the Koran". I can simply pass by if it isn't my cup of tea. I don't go into the forum and attack the poster. It is pretty easy to see the evil at work. A few non believers have been on here for hours attacking the believers. Why work so hard to try to destroy ones faith? No one is forced to read this thread. What I have a hard time understanding is why those who don't believe bother to click into this post. Why don't they simply start a thread "Know why we don't believe in the bible?" You can bet I won't click in...

SteveMT's picture

"...many seem to think the Bible is the cause of war."

This is not a "seem to think" or an "if." The Bible and Christianity both have have started many wars. These wars are facts. The Crusades were a series of over a dozen wars lasting intermittently for about 500 years carried out at the behest of multiple Popes and with their blessing of course. There was even a Children's Crusade of 1212 in which teenagers were goaded into battle by the priests and their parents. Those few kids who did survive were taken into slavery. The Popes and the priests did not want to stay out of entangling alliances. Power corrupted them just like power corrupts today. Power corrupts whether it is derived from religions origins or not.

Yes and that is why when you

Yes and that is why when you read the title to this post you armed up and jumped right in!

Just like guns cause crime.

LOL

magwan--good points/good questions

th

You have made some very good points here and I want to thank you for asking sincre questions.
Sadly, one of the biggest heresies preached by the majority of Christians is what Paul the Apostle referred to as "damnable heresies" or literally the preaching of the heresy of damnation. (2Pet.2:1)
This heresy of eternal damnation origininated with Augustine but it was not taught by the Lord Jesus Christ THE SAVIOUR OF THE WHOLE WORLD nor was it taught by the early church.
The gospel means "good news" and you have rightly pointed out that many Christians have given a message of bad news, horrifying news, cruel and torturous news---and I humbly ask your forgiveness
on behalf of those who have shared with you a blasphemous gospel for they have maligned the name of my Lord and His wonderful atoning work of REDEMPTION for ALL mankind!
Jesus said " If I be lifted up I will draw (Greek *drag*) ALL MEN unto me" (Jan.12:32).
All means all.

The words 'hell', 'eternal/everlasting', 'lake of fire' and 'destruction' have been sadly mistranslated by some well known versions of the Bible.
For a true understanding of these words listed above and for a deeper study please visit hopebeyondhell.com you can download their book for free.

The blessings of Christ Jesus to you!

Jesus is the saviour of the WHOLE WORLD, "As in Adam all die, so too in Christ ALL shall be made alive." (ICor.15:22) All means all. The pagan 'hell' of literal fire & eternal torment is a lie and is SPIRITUAL TERRORISM. http://www.hopebeyondhell.net