14 votes

Proud parent of an "aborted fetus"

There's a bumber sticker you will probably never see.

I believe abortion is probably the most touchy/difficult social issue out there. It is an issue that I personaly have had a hard time finding my stance on, but here it is.

I'm an atheist so I don't view this subject through the lense of "christian morality". For mostof my life I stood more on the side of "pro choice", but now after alot of thought,I as an individual am "pro life", because I've concluded that what this subject ultimately boils down to is personal responsibility. If you enjoy a sexually active lifestyle that's fine, that's your "choice". I think the responsible thing to do is to take the preventative measures of using some form of contraceptive. Now we all know contraceptives don't work 100% of the time, but you were aware of that and you were willing to take that risk,and it's time to own up. Your "choice" ultimately begins at being sexually active, so it seems very pompous to me when a women claims it's her right to choose. In the case of rape that's where you get sympathy from me, there is such things as the day after pill, but in the event of that failing, then I would say it's your right to choose an abortion.

even though I'm against abortion, I realize that the divide on this issue is so tremendous that I don't think it will be a good Idea to outlaw it. Like almost everything else that is prohibited,and illegal there will be a Black Market that arises, or just simply more events of post birth baby disposal. I think there is a good possibility that outlawing it will create much more herendous activity than the abortions themselves. Idk maybe I'm wrong, if any one would like to add or feel there's a flaw in my thoughts I would appreciate any thoughts that may differ.

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Ah yes the control freaks

I believe this and that and we should allow this or that, but what about liberty?

The bottom line, regardless of rape, incest or any other number of reasons for allowing abortion is this very basic premise.

Once conception takes place, a unique person is created with a complete set of chromosomes and DNA that is unique to that person, this is otherwise known as personhood.

At that point in time, that person has the fundamental right to exist. No Goverment should make a law giving a person a higher right than that of another - the ability to murder someone else legally.

While indeed it is a difficult subject to say what right does somebody have to tell a women who was raped that she must go forth with the term of the pregnancy of a child she doesn't want, it is no different than putting an honest man to death in a country that allows execution. We have literally put to death hundreds of innocent people via execution in the United States. The culture of death is what is bringing this country down with wars, mass murders, suicide, etc., but the killing of 40 million unborn leads the way, 40 million people that will never no life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Thanks

A reasonable atheist. Yet abortion is still pre-meditated murder imo.

donvino

We could agree on...

I agree 100% with this post - thanks for sharing your opinion.

I want to point out an elephant in the room. So-called feminists and so-called Christians, and so-called principled atheists..etc. would agree that human trafficking of women for sex is wrong/unacceptable. There is NO disagreement here. I do not see a lot of feminists trying to stop this cancer. At best the number is marginal. I see some Christians - not a lot - active in preventing this behavior. I see some secular people (i.e. Google) donating and working towards eradicating this cancer.

I find it unprincipled that the feminist/pro-choice movement just focuses on this single issue. Human trafficking is widespread and really humiliating for the human being. It is a huge issue happenning all over the world. Why is there such an emphasis in promoting abortions and almost none in addressing this other issue? It seems to me that this is just a power struggle at high levels. Hillary Clinton, Feinstein, Pelosi are using this issue to grab power. It is more benefitial to them to use this to attack their political opponents than to work with these opponents to solve a problem where there is an agreement.

Phxarcher87's picture

If all we are is star dust and pond scum randomly bumping

around what is the big deal, there is no true purpose to life. Now if you think we are more complex than that, were do you get your moral standards of correct and wrong? Governments or groups of people or a creator? Were the Germans wrong in WW2, by whos definition? Who is the ultimate judge of correct and incorrect? If left up to people we know what they are capable of. If left of to God, love him with all your heart and love your neighbor period end of story.

"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" - Mark Twain

The pre-born....

....should be required to CCW. I'm thinking if they could, they would likely use it.

A new twisted thinking is emerging, pre-born and infant children can't even discern that they are being murdered, as if that makes it's ok?

You're choice ENDS at conception.

Have a blessed day.

The night is far spent, the day is at hand.
And those who have not heard shall understand.

Yes

I've thought from that route exactly, and it was ultimately what made me define abortion as murder. That part of me that said "well I don't remember when I was a fetus so I don't think there's any pain/harm ect..." and I just took it a little further "but I also don't remember being an infant, infact I don't remember much of anything until I was about 3..." and I think (would hope) that everyone would agree that it's wrong to murder babies or toddlers.

Plus I remember Ron Paul sharing his experience of witnessing an abortion, and how they just pulled the fetus out and while it was crying just threw it in a bucket, and meanwhile down the hall they were struggling to save a premature infant about the same size.

Also the notion that I even had to question if it was murder or not ended up seeming rediculous to me. if I had to question something being mureder in the first place, then I think it's safe to say that it's murder.

Beep beep boop beep... I am a Paulbot... prepare for liberty and prosperity!

Easy reply to that "argumentation":

Say this:

"Would it be OK if someone shot you (the person presenting that argument, not you old_aldy) in the back of the head without you being aware of it happening? Would the person shooting you be a criminal if they did?"

www.youtube.com/truefictions

I try to change people every day. Do You?

You are correct.

That's a good way to put it. Thank you for your post.

The night is far spent, the day is at hand.
And those who have not heard shall understand.

Abortion is a form of extreme selfishness.

There are so many ways to prevent a pregnancy that I have no doubts in saying that women and men who create a new life, that they wish to abort, are negligent. If they follow thru with an abortion they are indeed criminal.

Abortion is a form of extreme selfishness because there are millions of people who would like to have children and can't, millions would have been very happy to take the responsibility of raising those kids who never got a chance and fell victims to the ultimate act of bullying.

Is it such a high price to pay to carry a life thru to birth until someone else can take over the process of maintaining that life when the mother and father have willfully engaged in the unprotected sexual behavior that led to the pregnancy?

This is one of the many fundamental changes Ron Paul has made in me and for this I am eternally grateful.

Someone has to protect the babies.

www.youtube.com/truefictions

I try to change people every day. Do You?

Cyril's picture

Before I recognize there is any relevance

Before I recognize there is any relevance for a so-called "pro-choice" thinking camp, I'd like to know about someone who ever had a chat with a woman (friend or relative) with whom the conversation went along lines alike:

"Hey, what's up?"

"Oh, not much... oh no, sorry... Almost forgot! I had an abortion yesterday! Was great! That felt sooo good! Finally got rid of the sucker! Plus, I could watch it happening "live" on the monitor, all the way thru! Super cool. Oh, yes, I feel so hyped up, now!" Etc, etc.

***AND***

the latter, same (woman) able to have AS MUCH "feel good" recollections ... just 10 YEARS AFTER that event (and a few more occurrences).

...

Okay, fair enough?

...

Till then, HOWEVER, here's my opinion on whether it's a good idea or not to try resolve "the abortion society issue" exclusively in terms of the Law, either way, or... if there ought to be (MAYBE) something else to be considered AS WELL:

http://www.dailypaul.com/271848#comment-2925592

'HTH,

"Cyril" pronounced "see real". I code stuff.

http://Laissez-Faire.Me/Liberty

"To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." -- Confucius

dr. paul bases his entire gvt

dr. paul bases his entire gvt philosophy on its most important role of protecting innocent life, where ever it may be found.
anyone who is prochoice and follows ron paul has completely missed his most important lesson on the proper role of gvt and is not fit to call themseves a supporter of ron nor rand paul.
period.
his entire foreign policy is based on prolife protection from gvt.

"if gvt wont protect innocent life, then who will?" ron paul

HOWEVER, I find it unique that all though paul is prolife and believes this issue should be left to the states to decide, he has been heard saying any state that outlaws abortion, and tries to stop a woman from crossing that states line to go into a state where the procedure is legal, paul has said his justice department, if elected president- would go after that state and believes the woman has the right to cross state lines to have the procedure done- where it is legal.

"OH NO! He has a SON?" Neoconservatives and Liberals EVERYWHERE!

Rand Paul 2016

Most people who are pro-choice

believe government has the responsibility to protect innocent life. They just haven't been convinced that unborn babies are live, human beings deserving of legal protection.

We had a stillborn baby

3 days after the due date. We were devastated. But, because the child was dead at birth we couldn't even deduct the medical bills. The government said it wasn't a child because he didn't live for one hour so we were not only screwed out of our baby but also out of deductions. Not saying there is a comparison but it added insult to injury. just thought I would add that food for thought.

skippy

.

im so sorry.
ron paul has had this happen and this is one of many reasons he says RvW
and our tax structure, makes NO SENSE.

Im really sorry about that skippy d. very sad and an incredible testimony. People dont even realize the half of what our gvt does to us and each other.
Imagine having gvt force a seat belt law and then lose your entire family because seat belts were on. This has happened also.
Ron Paul says no law should justify even one innocent death.
and thats why he is against federally mandated seat belt laws.
yes they save 15k lives a year but they also kill 2k a year.
It is the 2k dead because of a gvt law, he would stand for.

"OH NO! He has a SON?" Neoconservatives and Liberals EVERYWHERE!

Rand Paul 2016

It is about life

We defend adult life. Why not the life of young people? Dueling has long been illegal because life would be lost to a duel. If we protect two consenting adults, why not protect the life of an infant that does not consent to being aborted?

It's about LIFE...

The declaration of Independence guarantees the right to LIFE, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Where is the LIFE, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness for the baby? That is taken away. When the smallest (even helpless) of Americans are MURDERED, then it's not too long before other people groups face the same: the elderly, the disabled, the sick, homosexuals, etc. That is what happens at the end of a society. NO ONE is safe and NO ONE has the right to LIFE, liberty and pursuit of happiness, except for maybe the elite!

Dr. Seuss: A person is a person no matter how small!

"Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to get better. It's not." (Dr. Seuss)

I agree

I should've maybe made it a little more clear, I do think it's murder, and yes it is about life. It is so hard to get "pro choice" people to see it that way, and I've debated a couple of "pro choice" from my aspect of just being responsible, and it's funny because they have a hard time arguing against it, one girl just gave me a seething look and said nothing back. the other ended up agreeing with me from a personal level but ended up saying she still thinks it's others right to choose. as far as the whole rape thing I'm still working on how I feel about that, I think I would prefer adoption but it's still the only grey area where I bend. Thanks for your input, so far there's alot of great comments and insight on here.

Beep beep boop beep... I am a Paulbot... prepare for liberty and prosperity!

The Black Market argument

is probably he most problematic pain in the rear that we've had get in the way of mustering the willpower to get Roe v. Wade overturned. Ron Paul said it best in "Abortion and Liberty." Arguing against criminalizing abortion because someone might get hurt is like arguing to legalize bank robbery because someone might get hurt in an illegal bank robbery.

However, this isn't going to happen overnight. It wasn't until the 1850s, 60s, and 70s that the pro-life medical community managed to convince state legislatures that there needed to be legal protections for unborn babies. Of course, it was a lot easier back then when we didn't have a Supreme Court that felt it could unilaterally invent Constitutional laws.

We need to start out with majoritarian common ground and work from there rather than think we can outlaw all abortions everywhere and the practice magically disappear. For instance, one area to start would be to take the moderate position that abortion in the third trimester should outlawed except when the health of the mother is at risk.

hmmm

My whole perspective of viewing this from a personal responsibility aspect is something that I feel makes alot of sense, and it's something I kind of wanted to put out there for "pro choice" people to at least consider and think about, I've aproached this issue with a kind of "gadankin" way of thinking and I found it very hard to argue against "your "choice" begins at being sexually active", and just maybe if pro choice people realize this, then maybe that is a step towards the "majoritarian common ground".

The whole Black Market argument was just something I thought about and wasn't sure about the counter to that. Honestly I was very curious about what Ron Pauls view would be from that perspective, thank you for sharing that, I'll have to look more into "Abortion and Liberty".

Beep beep boop beep... I am a Paulbot... prepare for liberty and prosperity!

Thank you Dixie :)

Thank you Dixie :)

Beep beep boop beep... I am a Paulbot... prepare for liberty and prosperity!

it's only divisive for feminists

and they're not going to support liberty either way, ever, so why bother

If your an Atheist

Its all relative so it wouldn't matter whether you abort or not.

not believing in God

doesn't mean you have no morals. Do you think that no-one had thought of any of the ten commandments before they were passed down. i.e. do you think before the commandments people thought killing was fine?

Where did I say that not

Where did I say that not believing in God doesn't mean you have no morals. How does an Atheist define what is morally right or wrong? Is it society, is it evolution...you still wouldn't be able to make an objective claim for it.

I disagree.

The Bible makes it pretty clear that God gas given all people the knowledge of good and evil whether they recognize the source of that knowledge or not.

Romans 1:20 
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.
Romans 2:14-15 
14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

I was making a point for

I was making a point for Atheism and how philosophically broken it is. If one believes that we are here by chance...a cosmic accident a by product of matter and energy then there is no such thing as morals. Why are Atheist having this dilemma whether it is ok or not ok to have an abortion or just ok on some circumstances? To your point...we must have a conscience a rational mind given from God so we can go back and fact check ourselves from right and wrong when we have fallen astray especially from indoctrination.

How do you know right from wrong?

Morals are pretty easy. If you infringe upon another individuals life liberty or property(other than self defense) then you are an immoral person. It's as easy as that. Religion has nothing to do with morals.

.

.

By what standard

does infringing on someone else make a person immoral? If we are just a cosmic accident that happened by blind chance, then there is no such thing as meaning, whereupon no one has the authority to say that there is such a thing as right or wrong. In that scenario there is no such thing as authority, just as there is no such thing as authority with two random atoms floating around in a test tube.