8 votes

Should the United States have created the state of Israel?

I hope this essay isn't seen as anti-Semitic in any way. It is not meant to be.

It only asks a question about the role of the U.S. in creating another nation based solely on a creed.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
When the United States created the state of Israel in 1948, it sealed a certain fate which will last indefinitely.

One might argue that the U.S. didn't create Israel by itself - after all, didn't many nations participate?

But after WWII, the U.S. had the biggest guns in the world, including sole possession of the atom bomb.

No one could have forced us to do, or prevented us from doing anything.

So without the power of U.S. military might behind the decision to form a new nation (which meant displacing three quarters of a million people), and draw up new borders (based only a religion), such a nation-state would not have been created.

The United States itself was formed under strict rules prohibiting it from being based on any religion, creed, culture, language or any other such parameter restricting citizenship - other than the idea of individual liberty.

So it's rather ironic that we were instrumental in creating a new country BASED COMPLETELY on a belief system.

If you weren't Jewish, you couldn't live in Israel proper after the borders were drawn, and it's basically the same today I believe.

Now I'm not arguing whatsoever against U.S. efforts to liberate Jewish prisoners from Nazi concentration camps.

I read the book "Auschwitz" when I was 13, and it had a profound and lasting effect on me.

It was hard to believe humans could do that to one another, but the photos didn't lie.

My question is: After the Germans were defeated and Jewish prisoners freed from those camps, is that where the U.S. should have stopped?

Other than humanitarian efforts (not by government force, but rather by charity) to aid former prisoners back into freedom, was it a good idea to actually create a nation for them?

Would our founders have warned us about being invloved in forming a nation based strictly on a religion?

Would thay have told us we would never be safe again if we did that?

Will we one day be involved in a war over Israel?

Is there's any stopping it?

How many Americans will die (or have already died) in defense of Israel?

Will it never end until the end of time?

How many more 9/11's will happen to us for our involvement?

Will all the biblical connotations become self-fulfilling prophecies wherein our interventions will be justified and deemed necessary i.e. Revelations?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Maybe I'm off base here, and I suppose the criticisms will come hot and heavy.

But today, American citizens are a semi-slaves, not only to Israel, but to all the other countries to whom we're giving untold billions of dollars in a futile attempt to buy peace and "friendship."

Case in point: We've given Egypt some $70 BILLION over the last 40 years to leave Israel alone.

And we still give them billions. But they're not going to leave Israel alone anymore.

So what do we do NOW? Continue to give them weapons and money which one day will be used against US?

The same goes for Syria, Libya, Jordan, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, UAE, Qatar etc.

Our founders warned us, but we didn't listen.

And now we'll forever pay the price - in blood, treasure and national insecurity.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
As always, I'm open to opinions as to why I may be wrong about this.

I only wish I was.




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Should have been created in Germany if at all...

... and granted the best half (resources / agriculture / etc.) or more of the land within Germany's original, pre-war borders.

What would the Founders do?

Let me run a 'hypothetical' senario by you

The West, as defined in modern history, is undergoing a rapid, and catastrophic, economic decline. The reasons we won't go into here, but centered around greed, corruption and incompetent decision making.

There is an impending power shift to the East, both economically and militaristically, within the foreseeable future.

The Achillies heel of China is the reliance on the importation of raw materials and natural resources.

The PTB in the West, in order to counter that shift, have embarked on a course of strategic control, through militaristic intervention, predominently US and NATO, to take possession and control the wealth of natural resources in the Middle East and North Africa. The key element to power, is possession and control.

Neither China, India or even Korea and Russia present an existential threat to the West of itself, but there exists, in the face of interventionism, a common threat that forces a common alliance, and combined resistance.

Israel exists as a 'Western' power in the Middle East, and a controlling factor thereof, threatened only by Iran with any future nuclear capability provided to it.

The goal is world domination, the threat is world war. Big stakes, big risks in the name of "The New World Dis-Order".

End of hypothetical.

"Hell is empty, and all the devils are here" (Shakespeare)
RP 2012~ Intellectual Revolution.

Well written--nice job

Yes, and this is why Obama is now sending troops to Africa....to control more resources.

Jesus is the saviour of the WHOLE WORLD, "As in Adam all die, so too in Christ ALL shall be made alive." (ICor.15:22) All means all. The pagan 'hell' of literal fire & eternal torment is a lie and is SPIRITUAL TERRORISM. http://www.hopebeyondhell.net

Yes.

Israel is a Western bulwark. It was created for our own defense against the Russians, the Chinese, and the Muslims. This is not new, the West has been fighting the East for centuries...and it goes on today.

Russia, China, and the United Nations HATE Israel.

Gee, I wonder why.

A sovereign Western nation state, smack dab in the middle of the globe...geostrategically speaking, the creation of Israel was brilliant. In a military sense, it makes perfect sense. The Russians were anything but happy when Israel was born in 1947.

Israel is tremendously important to American and European national security interests.

Japan was, "created," for the same purpose on a more eastern front. Who's their closest neighbor? China.

I don't think the Chinese Communist Party leaders were smiling after the United States took control over Japan and helped build that nation into an economic powerhouse that forever changed the world for the better.

Israel and Japan are practically two giant Western military bases/fronts...each on the edge of the west and east.

Israel was created to keep an eye on Russia, and Japan was created to keep an eye on China.

Even though Americans rarely hear or see anything about Russia or China, I think those two countries are the real reasons behind the creation of Israel and Japan.

Never be afraid to ask simple questions.

this is all assuming that China and . . .

Russia are real threats, which they would not be, if America had minded *her* own business--

America could be a Switzerland in the western hemisphere--

no bases needed--

the enemy was created by the elite anyway--

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

Well, ultimately.

To be quite fair to the indigenous people of that land, this did create quite the problem to be sure. No one can deny this fact. Now, there is good evidence to suggest that many European countries did not want a major influx of Jewish refugees, much like Roma (Gypsies) are now seen as a nuisance to many Europeans. Anti-Jewish sentiment still existed after the war, and some allied and neutral countries continued to have suspicions that the Jewish people at least played some role in the war. This anti-semitisim did exist prior to WW1 and came to a head during the economic downturn that preceded World War 2. Many Europeans even came to blame the Jews, and not Serbian terrorists, for the assassination of Franz Ferdinand which led to WW1.

Now, looking at it from a perspective of if it should have happened - my answer is, unfortunately, no. It should not have taken place. Prior to Israel being established as a nation state, indigenous Hebrews, Jews, Christians, and Muslims lived in that region without much conflict, albeit under British, and once Ottoman rule. The issue of contention was that the British Empire, still in control of the world currency, and flexing its imperialistic imperatives, decided to do this, without so much as consulting anyone else in the region. At the time, the region was considered to be dominated by savages and so forth. Now, looking at what really happened, many Palestinians were displaced, and this cannot be denied. The state of Israel adopted a theocratic republic that would allow anyone of Jewish heritage to move there, which would kind of being like if you had a claim to being Roman, you could automatically gain Italian citizenship. It does not make any sense, except to super-religious people.

Thus, many Jewish families who traced their lineage to Europe alone, and not the "promised land" of Judea, found themselves moving there, and considering it their holy land. The problem, of course, being, that all 3 world religions have had a casus belli on this land (or cause for war under Christian Just War Theory) due to the nature of all 3 religions springing from this area. Thus, the only result could be conflict.

Mind you, however, that whats done is done, and cannot and should not be reversed. However, in the spirit of the UN Charter, I do believe that this violated it. Indeed, I also believe that Israel should comply with UN resolution 242 calling for 67 borders. Prior to this, the UN only recognized the 48 borders, and according to the UN, no nation can gain land from war following World War 2. This obviously makes sense as a world policy, since it deters nations from trying to annex land.

It is also the reason why the US failed to get UN support to invade Iraq. The entire point of the UN is to prevent war and not subsidize it, although the US and Britain have used their might in the last during Korea to make that a matter of discontent. So, really, no Israel should not have been created. But it has, and what they are doing now is far more important than what happened before. The settlement program needs to end and they need to go back to the 1967 borders, remove the blockades and physical walls through Gaze and the West Bank, and absolutely dismantle the settlements. The settlements encompass almost all of the West Bank to the point that it barely exists any more as a Palestinian entity. Israel cannot annex Gaza or build settlements on the strip because incorporating it into Israel proper would give the Palestinians living there the majority throughout all of Israel. The Knesset would be overrun by Palestinians and that would be end of the theocratic state.

So if you look at what is really going on, we are looking at the slow but sure elimination of an indigenous people as a culture, as a race, and so forth, whether intentional or not. Nation states always subjugate the indigenous peoples of a land to gain more territory and this is quite unfortunate. In the case of the Palestinians, there is nothing left, but Gaza is still one of the more densely populated areas in the world, and so they have built giant walls around it and so forth to prevent any interaction with the outside world. This is a policy of the state of Israel and not Jews themselves, which should be understood as being quite mutually exclusive.

Very well written

You have done a nice job here of looking at the many layers of 'human context' within this conversation of 'why was Israel created?'

I appreciate how you bring attention to the various indigenous groups living in the land of Palestine ( Hebrews, Jews, Christians, Muslims). Truly, there was a "mixed multitude" living in the land...and this is still true today.

As a follower of Christ, I am grieved over the cruel treatment of the Palestinians, especially those living in Gaza.
I totally agree with your statement, " This is a policy of the state of Israel and not Jews themselves, which should be understood as being quite mutually exclusive."

Looking at this issue from a spiritual perspective I would ask those that profess Christ these questions ,"Is this land in the middle east called 'Israel' really the Holy Land?" Does God approve of how the Palestinians are being treated? Is the Kingdom of God 'lo here or lo there' or is it WITHIN?"

Be blessed, RonPaulWasRight!

Jesus is the saviour of the WHOLE WORLD, "As in Adam all die, so too in Christ ALL shall be made alive." (ICor.15:22) All means all. The pagan 'hell' of literal fire & eternal torment is a lie and is SPIRITUAL TERRORISM. http://www.hopebeyondhell.net

the creation of Israel was

the creation of Israel was bankrolled almost 100% by the Rothschild Banking Family, so it should really be called the "State of Rothschild". Also Judaism and Zionism are NOT the same thing at all.

Here are a couple of links to get anyone started on learning:

They Dare Not Speak its name . . . Rothschild Zionism (http://www.davidicke.com/articles/political-manipulation-mai...)

The Zionist Elephant In The Room (http://www.rense.com/general86/zelephant.htm)

The History of the House of Rothschild (http://iamthewitness.com/DarylBradfordSmith_Rothschild.htm)

Forbidden History: Timeline of the ‘New World Order’(http://www.tomatobubble.com/fh1.html)

THE MIDDLE EAST CONFLICT: A CRASH COURSE FOR BEGINNERS (http://tomatobubble.com/middle_east.html)

It’s All about the control of the Creation of Debt Based Money & REAL Gold, this has been the case for 3000+ years.

"Great Men Do Not Seek Power, They Have Great Power Thrust Upon Them"
www.campaignforliberty.com
www.downsizedc.org
www.whatreallyhappened.com
http://scarecro.users.sonic.net/blog/

Face It - The Endless Checks are Going to Stop

What attracts me about libertarian ideas is that they reveal that artificial environments will eventually fall under their own weight. We see that in the analysis of the federally subsidized Ponzi schemes such as Social Security and MediCare.

I try to be neutral about Israel, the Arab states, the Middle East and all parties involved. I try to learn as much about the history, people and politics of the region. Like everything else there is a lot of good and bad and in-between on all sides.

Currently, we give Israel billions of dollars each year in military aid so it can defend itself against hostile neighbors. We give billions in dollars in military aid to Egypt so it won't fear Israel. We also give Egypt billions to keep their economy going so it can feed and employ its people. We give less but still large amounts to most of the other countries in the region.

Lets take geopolitics and religion out of this. What is Israel, Egypt and all these countries receiving foreign aid going to do when the aid stops? Anyone with a 6th grade education can easily see that the US government will go bankrupt before the end of this decade. All the recipient parties had better realize this and start making alternate plans.

On a personal level, I have come to the realization that Social Security will be bankrupt by the time I retire and I have to make alternate plans. I can moan and complain and blame and accuse. Still that isn't going to stop Social Security's bankruptcy and not going to pay my future bills.

Haavara Agreement

The US didn't create Israel, other than supporting international recognition of the Jewish State of Israel.
The German Nazis had a transfer agreement with the Jewish Nationalists (Zionists) ratified in March, 1933 that extended into 1942. This was to avert a Jewish worldwide boycott on the German enocomy. Under the agreement Jews in Germany, could relocate to Palestine, with their wealth, provisional on British immigration regulation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_agreement

"Hell is empty, and all the devils are here" (Shakespeare)
RP 2012~ Intellectual Revolution.

Hell even prior to that we

Hell even prior to that we had the Balfour Declaration.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration

"My theories explain, but cannot slow the decline of a great civilization. I set out to be a reformer, but only became the historian of decline."
- Ludwig Von Mises

thank you for this information--

I hadn't known this; there was a lot more going on there than *I* was told in public schools.

The British certainly held a lot of power--

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

Nazis made a lot of agreements.

The one with Chamberlain "peace in our time". The one with Stalin. With the czechs. With the Poles. With the French. With the Dutch. With the Danes, Norwegians, Hungarians.

Do you know of one agreement the NAZIs made that they honored?

Can you cite an example? Much appreciated!

Similar to asking

For one presidential candidate that honored his campaign promises, but there are exceptions to everything, as you no doubt know.

But yes, the Haavara agreement does seem to be one of those exceptions, considering some 60,000 Jews and 40,419,000 (1930's) dollars went to Palestine. I expect the prospect of a worlwide Jewish boycott of a poverty stricken, depression torn nation had something to do with it.

Possibly the fact that the German Jews, disproportionately, had a monopoly on the national media and failed banking system, also lent some incentive.
Unfortunately, due to British resistance, and the immigration levy imposed ($4,990), later increased along with other costs, only the wealthy (or fortunate) had access to the system, otherwise maybe a lot more 'transfers' would have been effected.

"Hell is empty, and all the devils are here" (Shakespeare)
RP 2012~ Intellectual Revolution.

An important aspect of the

An important aspect of the forming of Israel to remember is that many, many Jews were flowing into Palestine for YEARS before the creation of the state. And not only were they forming communities and enclaves within British Palestine, they were actively defying British rule even before WWII. Very similar to the American colonists here, they saw the British as the arbitrary rulers over their own land.

So when the U.S. voted in favor of the creation of the state of Israel (the Partition Plan), it was important but not game-changing. Indeed, the issue of recognition of Israel was highly contentious, with many in the Truman administration wary of its effect on Muslim relations, which the US saw as vital to contain Soviet influence. In fact Truman himself was more concerned with the displaced people of Europe than recognition of Israel.

Far more important was the tripartite agreement with Israel, the U.S., Britain and France, which followed the Palestinian Civil War and assured that the three superpowers would defend the Green Line should the Arabs encroach on Israeli territories. That's what really set up the prominence of the United States in Israeli politics. You could also argue that the relationship wasn't truly solidified until Nixon.

Dont forget the Jews native to Palestine before any of this.

Several hundred thousand *generally* living fairly peacefully side by side with everyone else even before the British mandate.

If anything it was the foreign western occupying powers that instigated the nonsense still going on today.

yes, the Jews did live peacefully with the Muslims and . . .

Christians there before 1948--

the 'foreign western occupying powers' are guilty for a lot of crimes, throughout the world, not just in the middle east--

and the Jews who moved into the 'neighborhood' after 1948 were a different sort of people than those who lived there before--

made for a very interesting situation--

that has led to heartache--

and not all the Jews were happy about it; will you ever respond to this:

http://www.nkusa.org/

The way you write implies that you are a Christian (as am I); I hope you are not the sort of Christian who believes that only secular Jews who don't believe that the Jews have any hope in the Messiah have a right to exist--

These people are real; they are righteous, and they have strong opinions--

but most Christian Zionists don't like them, because they actually believe that the Messiah will come.

So do those of us who believe that Jesus will come again.

These Jews are peaceable; they are friends of Christians and Muslims, though wary of secular Jews--

but they are not violent, though they do protest--

why can't you acknowledge them?

Do you think righteous Jews displease God?

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

Consider me Jewish.

How about this. I am a Christian and I am personally anti-zionist.

However, I am not anti-semetic like I suspect you are.

So, here's my proposal. I willingly take upon myself the mantle of a Jew for the purposes of our relationship.

Henceforth, I want you to consider me and treat me as you would any Jewish person, ok? Consider me to be what I think you believe is the "worst" kind - Ashkenaz.

Now, let's proceed accordingly.

Thank you.

I am not anti-Ashkenazi--

The only thing I have ever criticized about European Jews IN ISRAEL is the way they have treated African Jews and Sephardic Jews IN ISRAEL. I obviously didn't spell Sephardic the right way.

I admit that I haven't studied Jewish ancestry very much, even though I have Jewish relatives; some of them have concerted to Christianity; some of them have not, but I have had nothing to do with conversions, and I support those who remain Jewish.

Because I state that nobody knows how many have been killed in worldwide genocides--

I become anti-Semitic?

I, too, am not sympathetic with Zionism, but I think that using the word "anti" is problematic. I believe that the governments of both America and Israel are being controlled by some kind of cartel. Do I believe most of the 'members' of the cartel are of Jewish descent? No, I do not.

So, why am I anti-Semitic?

I am wary of Israel, because most of the members of my own Christian denomination revere the leaders of Israel and are highly pro-Israel, very sentimental about Israel--

and are highly anti-Muslim.

I am neither Muslim nor Jew, but it's enough proof to me that the Muslims have been used as an excuse for invading the middle east--

that hundreds of thousands of innocent middle easterners of mostly Muslim religion have been killed in the past decade--

That makes me suspicious that Islam is being used as an excuse for something--

the fact that most of my Christian friends claim that Israel is a frightened victim when the people of Gaza are suffering--

does make me wonder what is happening.

But I don't believe that any more of the Israeli citizens are 'evil' than American citizens.

In fact, I am quite convinced that many Israelis are not happy with the present 'regime', and I am also convinced that many Jews outside Israel are very unhappy with Israel's treatment of Palestinians.

I was heartsick when European Jews (not in Israel) were turned away when they tried to get aid to the Palestinians.

I don't believe there is a malignant religion; I don't believe there is a malignant ethnic group--

but I do think that Israel is controversial. I am not even sure why--but I think it's very controversial.

I believe there are evil people in every religion, ethnic group and nationality--

I would never pick out one group to call evil--

unless it is a shadowy group of unknown people who are behind this kind of thing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confessions_of_an_Economic_Hit_Man

I believe there are shadow governments (I heard Dr. Paul use that term) in every nation in the world--

I think they have more power in some than in others; I highly suspect they are very powerful in the most wealthy nations of the world--

but I don't know for sure--

You're asking me to consider you an Ashkenazi Jew--and I am quite sure there are Jews of Ashkenazi descent (I think there's another term for them) among those Orthodox Jews who are unhappy with Israel--

You didn't answer my question--

Is God displeased with righteous Jews? If so, why?

You didn't respond to anything I said about how I support the Jews against Zionism--

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

Holy cow FBI,

you are human first, jew second. Most of the western world states that they "hate Americans", and 99.99 percent of people know that it's American politics that is hated...not the everyday American that they meet.
Grow up about this.
I abhor Zionist politics...but I don't hate Jews.

I don't believe you, therefore, for your purposes.....

...consider me to be Ashkenaz. Thank you.

Look at what Harry Truman said about the Jewish people.

Truman?s newly-discovered 1947 diary entry continues:

?The Jews, I find, are very, very selfish. They care not how many Estonians, Latvians, Finns, Poles, Yugoslavs or Greeks get murdered or mistreated as D[isplaced] P[ersons] as long as the Jews get special treatment. Yet when they have power, physical, financial or political neither Hitler nor Stalin has anything on them for cruelty or mistreatment to the under dog. Put an underdog on top and it makes no difference whether his name is Russian, Jewish, Negro, Management, Labor, Mormon, Baptist he goes haywire. I've found very, very few who remember their past condition when prosperity comes.?

(this from the President that recognized Israel over the objections of the Joint Chiefs of Staff)

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/2503...

that might have been an opinion he had, but--

he dropped the bomb.

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

Yes, because Japan would not agree to "unconditional...

surrender," as they feared the Emperor would be tried for war crimes. In return, Truman ordered the incineration of the the two largest cities in Japan with Christian populations,carnage second only to Churchill's bombing of Dresden, which killed more people than both atom bombs combined.

they were both monsters--

I have just recently become aware that Churchill admitted that WWII could easily have been prevented--

but it wouldn't have suited the PTB--

grrr----

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

You keep using that word

(anti-Semitic) I don't think it means what you think it means.

How about you define what you think "Semitic" means, hmm?

Calling 1988vote "Anti-Semitic" and attempting to paint them as anti-Jewish (no, those two terms are NOT interchangeable, no matter how hard you believe they are) only shows how shallow your arguments really are.

Stop stating your opinions as facts, stop pulling assumptions from your rear, and stop attempting to alter the definitions of words.

Of course, if you *did* stop those three things, you'd have nary a thing to post.

A signature used to be here!

Mirriam-Webster and Dictinary.com definition of Anti-Semite...

Definition of ANTI-SEMITISM: hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group

I think you know perfectly well what Anti-Semitism means.

You're splitting hairs to avoid the subject.

"We have allowed our nation to be over-taxed, over-regulated, and overrun by bureaucrats. The founders would be ashamed of us for what we are putting up with."
-Ron Paul

I know exactly what it means.

Thank you very much.

And I'm more than fully aware of all the neonazi "versions" of what both mean.

Great, glad you know what it means, because...

Arabs are Semites too.
Now the question is...is Israel anti Semitic?

deacon's picture

i had at one time

a congressional map from the 30's
this map showed israel as a nation already
i have looked all day just for you
also on this map it showed the world sectioned off
with different nations running the sections
deacon

setting your expectations to high,can cause depressiuon