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Should the United States have created the state of Israel?

I hope this essay isn't seen as anti-Semitic in any way. It is not meant to be.

It only asks a question about the role of the U.S. in creating another nation based solely on a creed.
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When the United States created the state of Israel in 1948, it sealed a certain fate which will last indefinitely.

One might argue that the U.S. didn't create Israel by itself - after all, didn't many nations participate?

But after WWII, the U.S. had the biggest guns in the world, including sole possession of the atom bomb.

No one could have forced us to do, or prevented us from doing anything.

So without the power of U.S. military might behind the decision to form a new nation (which meant displacing three quarters of a million people), and draw up new borders (based only a religion), such a nation-state would not have been created.

The United States itself was formed under strict rules prohibiting it from being based on any religion, creed, culture, language or any other such parameter restricting citizenship - other than the idea of individual liberty.

So it's rather ironic that we were instrumental in creating a new country BASED COMPLETELY on a belief system.

If you weren't Jewish, you couldn't live in Israel proper after the borders were drawn, and it's basically the same today I believe.

Now I'm not arguing whatsoever against U.S. efforts to liberate Jewish prisoners from Nazi concentration camps.

I read the book "Auschwitz" when I was 13, and it had a profound and lasting effect on me.

It was hard to believe humans could do that to one another, but the photos didn't lie.

My question is: After the Germans were defeated and Jewish prisoners freed from those camps, is that where the U.S. should have stopped?

Other than humanitarian efforts (not by government force, but rather by charity) to aid former prisoners back into freedom, was it a good idea to actually create a nation for them?

Would our founders have warned us about being invloved in forming a nation based strictly on a religion?

Would thay have told us we would never be safe again if we did that?

Will we one day be involved in a war over Israel?

Is there's any stopping it?

How many Americans will die (or have already died) in defense of Israel?

Will it never end until the end of time?

How many more 9/11's will happen to us for our involvement?

Will all the biblical connotations become self-fulfilling prophecies wherein our interventions will be justified and deemed necessary i.e. Revelations?
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Maybe I'm off base here, and I suppose the criticisms will come hot and heavy.

But today, American citizens are a semi-slaves, not only to Israel, but to all the other countries to whom we're giving untold billions of dollars in a futile attempt to buy peace and "friendship."

Case in point: We've given Egypt some $70 BILLION over the last 40 years to leave Israel alone.

And we still give them billions. But they're not going to leave Israel alone anymore.

So what do we do NOW? Continue to give them weapons and money which one day will be used against US?

The same goes for Syria, Libya, Jordan, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, UAE, Qatar etc.

Our founders warned us, but we didn't listen.

And now we'll forever pay the price - in blood, treasure and national insecurity.
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As always, I'm open to opinions as to why I may be wrong about this.

I only wish I was.



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rephrase the question

Should the United States have created the state of Israel?

to this

should the rothschilds along with other various actors have been allowed to create the crime ridden mafia state of israel ?

NO

"He's this eccentric Ghandi-Like figure that you cant touch with the normal bribes that people respond to."
the man Doug Wead on DR. RON PAUL

I hear you Ghostdog...LOL!

You and I pretty much agree on that.

But my essay questions the constitutionality of our involvement.

If only we had listened to the lessons of our founders we would be in much better shape today: "Honest friendhsip with all nations, entangling alliances with none."

As it is now, we're going the way of Rome, England, France, Russia and Germany - BROKE.

Like Dr. Paul says, one way or another it's going to end - it's up to us to decide how.

"We have allowed our nation to be over-taxed, over-regulated, and overrun by bureaucrats. The founders would be ashamed of us for what we are putting up with."
-Ron Paul

DID YOU WATCH THE HAGEL CONFIRMATION HEARINGS ?

sen lindsey graham , shill for israeli ,

"give me an example where we have been intimidated by the jewish lobby ?"

Hagel had to keep silent and say he knew of none. poor Hagel even he is intimidated by the power the lobby has over each and every one of those senators.

we need to sweep the senate and congress clean of all foreign agents and oath BREAKERS!!

www.veteranstoday.com/2013/01/31/american-hero-hagel-gets-ha...

"He's this eccentric Ghandi-Like figure that you cant touch with the normal bribes that people respond to."
the man Doug Wead on DR. RON PAUL

The United States

did not create Israel. The British who held a colonial mandate for Palestine until May 1948, opposed the creation of a Jewish and an Arab State in Palestine. They wanted to preserve good relations with the Arabs to protect its vital interests in the region. The British turned the problem over to the United Nations in 1947. By a Special Commission, Resolution 181 was adopted (also known as the Partition Resolution). The United States backed the resolution. So it's not surprising there is so much trouble there. The UN loves divided countries.

We are in another war for our Independence.

as for the 'state' of Israel (modern)--

http://www.nkusa.org/activities/demonstrations/20121120Jerus...

I should have posted that originally.

I don't know about what happened in 1948, though I've tried to study it, along with the Bolshevik Revolution, the Holocaust and the establishment of the Federal Reserve.

I don't know, because I wasn't there. I would like to know the 'truth' of all of it, but I do know that God loves those who are 'right' before Him, and these people are:

http://www.nkusa.org/AboutUs/Zionism/opposition.cfm

These people are like the minority of Christians who don't believe in warmongering--

If *they* are kooks, so are those of *us* who follow principles of liberty and participate in discussions on DP.

Some of *us* Christians believe that America will only be prospered if *she* operates on righteous principles, including that of not oppressing other people and declaring constant wars--

and, yes, America has suffered for oppressing American 'natives'--

*We* are really no different from these people.

Some of *us*, whether Christian or Jew (or Bhuddist, Hindu, Muslim) believe that it is time for wars to end and for all people to be free--

that it is time for swords to be beaten into plowshares--

are *we* radicals? There are those in the current administration who want mainstream Americans to believe we are terrorists--

Are *we* really any different from these Jews--

who believe they can claim the blessings of heaven only if they obey God?

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

has anyone seen this?

http://www.singingrevolution.com/

Russian and Nazi treatment of the Estonians (and SO many others) had nothing to do with religion and everything to do with evil oppressors.

Why didn't Britain and America:

1--save the Jews before it was too late; there was a window, and for some reason it didn't happen?

2--create a land for all the deposed people from all the nations the Nazis, Soviets and Japanese imperialists invaded and destroyed?

3--go into Siberia and take all the people from all nationalities out?

4--go into all the German-occupied nations and rescue all the people in all the labor camps--?

They didn't, because the PTB wanted a war; they wanted the gain from a war; they didn't care of the lives of:

Americans, British, Danes, Dutch, Estonians, French, Germans, Japanese, Jews from anywhere, Poles, Romanians, etc.--or Russians or any of the countries the Soviets eventually included in their own evil empire--

There was no good side, no bad side, just the PTB playing their little chess games with human beings as pawns--

EVERYONE should have been rescued or NO-ONE should have been rescued--

the rescuing wasn't fair or just--

too many lives were lost, so that the PTB could become even more wealthy and even more powerful, and Israel is just--

part of the story.

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

Lets Ask Ourselves, Who Benefits In Modern Wars ?

My answer is; The bankers who fund the wars by lending/giving money to warmongers.....There were no world wars, before the Fed was formed.

beesting

yes--

point made with fewer words than any I made.

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

This is a false statement

"If you weren't Jewish, you couldn't live in Israel proper after the borders were drawn, and it's basically the same today I believe."

There are Palestinian Israeli citizens living and working in Israel proper and even Palestinian members of the Israeli Knesset.

I love how...

...some people on the DP downvote an irrefutable fact, just like opponents of Ron Paul do.

Getting downvoted by enemies of truth is a badge of honor. Thank you.

"and even Palestinian members of the Israeli Knesset."

Really? I am trying to get all this Zionism stuff straight in my newly found "Liberty Mind."

I find that many people seem to hate Israel. I keep wondering...they are just a dot on the map. Why do they get so much attention. There are people everywhere suffering. I hear the Israelis are causing the Palestinians to suffer and visa versa.

Then I see your statement "There are Palestinian Israeli citizens living and working in Israel proper and even Palestinian members of the Israeli Knesset."

So do they really all get along and all this stuff in the news is a sham? Or are there just some bad people trying to stir stuff up? Then I see stuff about Mossad doing 9/11 and Israeli concentration camps for Palestinians.

I have always felt supportive of Israel because that is what I was taught. So, I am confused. I can see how an enemy would want to separate allies. I can also see that I have believed many lies. Do you understand how all of this stuff works? What do you understand the truth to be?

...

...

It doesn't invalidate the fact.

I provided a simple fact. I did not elaborate. You provided speculation. It doesn't change the fact.

Could you please re-read my response, I thought I was asking a

question. It was not a question about your fact. It was a question about what is going on over there and if you can help me understand.

I dont know I dont live there.

"Do they really get along or is it all a sham?"

What does that have to do with the fact that there are, in fact, Palestinean non-jewish citizens of the state of Israel or that there are a small number serving in the Knesset?

One might surmise that there are some who are friends, some who are friendly but unhappy, some who are indifferent and some who hate each other, just like everywhere else.

What does it have to do with the the fact?

"What does that have to do with the fact that there are, in fact, Palestinean non-jewish citizens of the state of Israel or that there are a small number serving in the Knesset?"

Well, since that is a fact, I think it speaks volumes and it makes me wonder if hatred of Israel is unfounded. It makes me wonder if they are really the victim in the Israeli/Palestinian scenario because that is what I have always been taught and I suppose I want to validate my past beliefs.

But more than that I want to know what the truth is about Israeli accupation as a nation in the middle east. Some people think it is wrong. I want to know why. I want to understand why.

Do you know if the Israelis provoke the Palestinians or if the Palestinians provoke Israel? See, I always thought the Israelis were the ones getting picked on until I started seeing stuff on the DP about Zionism.

I haven't been awake long. I always thought America was good to support Israel. But I also thought the Republicans were the "good guys."

Now I know better, but I suppose I still want someone to be the good guy.

You seemed to have facts so I thought maybe you would have an understanding of the whole situation. I did not mean to put you on the spot like you lived there or something.

...

I dont think it's possible....

....to summarize several thousand years of history in a reply bubble on the DP. Is that fair?

People who claim to do so or be able to do so are outright charlatans. That is certain.

You know,

that is practically the same answer my husband gave me. He said my questions concerning Israel were ambiguous and that there were multiple reasons and combinations. I suppose I am a simpleton. I should have listened to him, because now you are having to tell me the same thing. It is just that I see hatred toward them on the DP and am trying to get it all sorted out in my mind. You made a positive factual comment so I thought maybe you had more answers. Thank you for your time.

Look to Ron Paul as the answer.

Ron Paul neither hates Jews nor Israel. He also has Jewish friends and associates. He also opposes collectivization of people, any people and all people.

His position is it is simply none of our business. And we should be following our constitution to the word.

If everyone did that the world would be a beautiful place! :)

God bless...

Off topic

This is one part of the constitution that I question, but I am told I am not supposed to question it in that very same constitutional wording:

AMENDMENT XIV http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution_amend...
Section 4.
The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, SHALL NOT BE QUESTIONED. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.
-------------------
I suppose if we would mind our own business, there would be no need to question :)

...

Yeah....

..this one deserves it's own thread... Probably it's own website! :)

Why not start a thread on it? It would be an interesting discussion!

I hope you will stop

in http://www.dailypaul.com/273212/questioning-the-constitution and take part in an interesting discussion :)

I took you up on your words. I wanted to do it earlier but just couldn't seem to get it done. There was a post tha Nystrom put up asking folks to post, so that also drove me to put up a DP original.

Have a great day :)

It was not America, but the Leaque of Nations

What many don't understand about Israel, is that during WWII many nations had abused their Jewish populations. We hear much about what Hitler's Germany did, but that was only the tip of the iceburg of hate and inhumanity.

Stalin imprisoned and murdered hundred of thousands of Jews during his reign of power. Pregnant women were forced into his GuLags where they birthed children, who were raised in those prisons. Europe had problems as many people sided with the Germans and wished their countries had done to the Jews (not the others so much, not those who had mental illness, or were sick, but this was a secular/socialist/communist war that was never declared as much).

Russia knew it was wrong to have all these children growing up in prison just because they were born to Jewish mothers. They had hundreds of thousands of these innocent prisoners, and Europe feared another war because the population against Jews was very vocal.

So the Leaque of Nations came together.. Balfore Treaty.. and came up with a solution.. send all these folks to Israel. And they have made the Jews fight for a home. They didn't work anything out with Palestine, as they found Arabs for the most part stuck in Islam's backwards culture and unable to make any negotiations.

So these innocent children were shipped off to Israel and told to fight in the war of 1948. They fought and won.. and they fought again in 67 and won, and they continue to fight, even their own government, that forces them to fight, military training 2 years.

Most people who have issues with Israel do not know how Israel came into being what it is today. They have no idea that Russia and Europe purged their Jewish populations and sent these people to Israel. It was not fair to the Jews, or the Palestines, or the world.

And now we have a UN, that continues the same path of destruction to people in the name of protecting the interests of those who invested in the ME.

Many of these Jews who were in Stalin's prisons HOPED in America, HOPED America would give them Amnesty.. Trumen received over 40K letters requesting Amnesty from these children who had grown up in GuLags because their mothers had birthed them there.. Truman sent the letters back to Stalin who assassinated every one of them.

The Arab Leaque has agreed to the 1967 borders, and the propblem is that those who have invested huge bucks outside those borders have the power, political connections to fight.

I agree with Ron and Rand Paul.. it's time to let Israel stand on it's own.. enough generations have been born at this time, where they have their own military complex, power, and NO FEAR.

FREE ISRAEL AND PALESTINE WILL BE FREE TOO

Being honest what bothers me when I hear the anti-zionism

talk, is that perhaps people are turning on the Jews again like Europe did. I have even heard people in my extended family speak against the Jews and it was shocking to me. I was always taught to love the Jewish people. So I am having a hard time trying to understand whether the Nation of Israel is a "good guy" or a "bad guy." I used to think America was the "good guy" but and finding that may not be the case. I don't know if I am making any sense or not.

My opinion

There are good guys and bad guys in every nationality,religion, etc. Take indivduals as you find them. If you don't it could cause you to become part of the division you can plainly see in this country today of lumping people together as no good because of what they are, not who they are. Don't think I've worded that very well. But I hope you will see what I mean.

We are in another war for our Independence.

Perhaps more than an opinion

but very good advice indeed!

Hi Bear--thank you for asking sincere questions

As I have been reading your different reply's I sense your sincerity in wanting to understand this whole conversation--and yet before one can even begin to understand the conversation, there has to first be the correct understanding of specific words used. I would encourage you to do some basic research on certains words...such as 'zionism', 'semite', 'Israel', ect.

The words "Zionism", "Israel", "Jew", "Semite", "Antisemite"....they mean different things to different people.

Many here on the DP are anti-zionism but that does NOT mean they are anti-jew.

There are a few(very few) on DP that are anti-jew but not anti-semite.

There are a many on DP that are Pro-Semite and ANTI-zionism.

There are many here on DP that LOVE the people of Israel but are anti-zionist.

So if I have you scratching your head...that is a good thing!

Be blessed Bear!

Jesus is the saviour of the WHOLE WORLD, "As in Adam all die, so too in Christ ALL shall be made alive." (ICor.15:22) All means all. The pagan 'hell' of literal fire & eternal torment is a lie and is SPIRITUAL TERRORISM. http://www.hopebeyondhell.net

Thank you for your thoughtful answer.

Anti-Zionism is not something I had even heard of until this last couple of years and I see it here on the DP as well. When I first heard the term it bothered me. It still bothers me. I am more of the everyone get along type. I wrote a post http://www.dailypaul.com/comment/2764794 about the holocaust and Zionism, but I still have a hard time keeping things sorted out and it still bothers me to see hatred towards Israel.

I believe the Semites are decendants of Shem. One of Noah's 3 sons who populated the earth after the World Wide Flood.

I believe Jew comes from Judaism which is a religion. I believe Hebrew to be the race of people who came from Jacob.

I believe Israel to be alot of things: A name for Jacob; a Nation; or a people devoted to God which could also include Gentile Christians.

I assume Zionism has to do with the creation of Israel in 1948 but I do not know that for a fact.

...

I have many of the same questions and fears

that you have brought up. I think there are some who use "anti Zionism" to cover their antisemitism among other things.

Yes,

in this world of up is down and right is left, one is left wondering. On top of all of that, I tend to want to see in black and white and it may not be that simple.

You hit on an extremely important point.

All of this " nations being 'good guy' or 'bad guy' " goes completely against what Ron Paul believes and has taught us because it is the epitome of COLLECTIVISM.

Non-collectivists know that people are INDIVIDUALS. There are good ones, bad ones and every shade in between in every nation, every year in history, every race and every religion.

And according to Ron Paul, that is how you approach people, treat people and understand people AND nations, i.e. a collection of INDIVIDUALS all of whom are necessarily different.

Watch for the tell-tail signs of collectivization. There is a suprising amount of it here on DP even among those who claim to be libertarian, particularly when it comes to the subject of Israel or Jews.

If you see collectivization you may know instantaneously it is false.