8 votes

Should the United States have created the state of Israel?

I hope this essay isn't seen as anti-Semitic in any way. It is not meant to be.

It only asks a question about the role of the U.S. in creating another nation based solely on a creed.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
When the United States created the state of Israel in 1948, it sealed a certain fate which will last indefinitely.

One might argue that the U.S. didn't create Israel by itself - after all, didn't many nations participate?

But after WWII, the U.S. had the biggest guns in the world, including sole possession of the atom bomb.

No one could have forced us to do, or prevented us from doing anything.

So without the power of U.S. military might behind the decision to form a new nation (which meant displacing three quarters of a million people), and draw up new borders (based only a religion), such a nation-state would not have been created.

The United States itself was formed under strict rules prohibiting it from being based on any religion, creed, culture, language or any other such parameter restricting citizenship - other than the idea of individual liberty.

So it's rather ironic that we were instrumental in creating a new country BASED COMPLETELY on a belief system.

If you weren't Jewish, you couldn't live in Israel proper after the borders were drawn, and it's basically the same today I believe.

Now I'm not arguing whatsoever against U.S. efforts to liberate Jewish prisoners from Nazi concentration camps.

I read the book "Auschwitz" when I was 13, and it had a profound and lasting effect on me.

It was hard to believe humans could do that to one another, but the photos didn't lie.

My question is: After the Germans were defeated and Jewish prisoners freed from those camps, is that where the U.S. should have stopped?

Other than humanitarian efforts (not by government force, but rather by charity) to aid former prisoners back into freedom, was it a good idea to actually create a nation for them?

Would our founders have warned us about being invloved in forming a nation based strictly on a religion?

Would thay have told us we would never be safe again if we did that?

Will we one day be involved in a war over Israel?

Is there's any stopping it?

How many Americans will die (or have already died) in defense of Israel?

Will it never end until the end of time?

How many more 9/11's will happen to us for our involvement?

Will all the biblical connotations become self-fulfilling prophecies wherein our interventions will be justified and deemed necessary i.e. Revelations?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Maybe I'm off base here, and I suppose the criticisms will come hot and heavy.

But today, American citizens are a semi-slaves, not only to Israel, but to all the other countries to whom we're giving untold billions of dollars in a futile attempt to buy peace and "friendship."

Case in point: We've given Egypt some $70 BILLION over the last 40 years to leave Israel alone.

And we still give them billions. But they're not going to leave Israel alone anymore.

So what do we do NOW? Continue to give them weapons and money which one day will be used against US?

The same goes for Syria, Libya, Jordan, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, UAE, Qatar etc.

Our founders warned us, but we didn't listen.

And now we'll forever pay the price - in blood, treasure and national insecurity.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
As always, I'm open to opinions as to why I may be wrong about this.

I only wish I was.



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The Holocaust Testimonies You DIDN'T Hear

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtlPlZGvgY0

By the way. Anne Frank who miraculously wrote a book in ball point before the ball points pens were invented died of typhus.

Luke 3:38
Isaiah 43:3-5

OK, facts.

The Germans kept meticulous records.
http://abundanthope.net/pages/Political_Information_43/Offic...

Maybe a lot of them died, but none of them were gassed. I don't know and YOU DON'T EITHER, since neither of us was there. But how about we just stick to what documentation IS available? We are all going to have our own opinions, so if we want common ground we should stick to FACTS.

WW2 happened. Everything we know about it was spun, from Pearl Harbor to Nagasaki.

Love or fear? Choose again with every breath.

Many eyewitnesses were.

Many independent eyewitnesses were there, escapees, capos, prison workers and SS who testified in and out of court. Nice try though.

Shall we overturn every court conviction made from eyewitness testimony because you dont believe eyewitnesses?

Really? every single one?

You must be a powerful psychic.

You should spend a LOT less time putting words in my mouth.

I don't claim to believe ANYTHING. I KNOW beyond any shadow of a doubt that I have been lied to about WW2. Well, pretty much every war but lets stick to this one for now.
I DON'T KNOW. I do not believe the history books or the court records. I know that what passes as "justice" today is theater, but maybe Nuremburg was all above board.
If you look at ALL the documentation available, a reasonable human must come to one conclusion: I DON'T KNOW.

Love or fear? Choose again with every breath.

fishy

I understood perfectly what you were trying to say, and I voted you up for sharing your perspective. I wouldn't waste my energy trying to justify myself to this FBI_Exposer person, as they have made it quite obvious that they are just looking to pick a fight.
An open mind is required to find the truth. :)

Again with "either / or" declarations rather than truth seeking.

Of course people died at Auschwitz, lots and lots of them. That does not mean the story of Auschwitz has been accurately told. They changed the sign telling how many died, the sign AT Auschwitz, so are you telling me a couple million of the dead got resurrected, or did they lie about the number for many years?

Love or fear? Choose again with every breath.

Give or take murdering a million....

...you're right, if NAZIs killed one million fewer people than initially thought, that makes NAZIs good and Jews bad.

Give it a @#$@#$-ing break fishy.

You don't care if one million fewer were murdered by NAZIs, because it's ok to murder Jews, give or take a million, but you point out every Paki child murdered by drones.

You're a hypocrite incarnate.

I would argue that intent is everything.

Remember, jews were held as political prisoners, because Judea declared war on Germany first. The dead bodies you see in the history books are both jewish and non-jewish prisoners who died of Typhus (which the Germans had no cure for), and starvation due to shortage of food. The Germans made every effort to keep the prisoners safe and well; they deloused their bedding and clothing to try to prevent Typhus, provided them with sports for exercise (Auschwitz had -and still has- a swimming pool in the prisoner's barracks and Bergen-Belsen had a soccer team). They also had hospitals in camp.
In fact, the reason many prisoners were transported from camp to camp and lost contact with their families, was due to the Soviets pushing forward and the Germans having to move the prisoners farther back behind safe lines. You know, so they wouldn't be killed.

Those who accept the "extermination" story tend to overlook how absurd it is when you really think about it. If you have an army of men with guns, and a group of people you want to get rid of, how would you do it? I'll give you a hint. The answer's not "round them up, put them in camps, shave their heads, tattoo each of them with numbers, then gas them with a delousing agent that has never been used to kill anyone before or since."

Truth is, the Nazis were no worse than the Allies, maybe even a little better because at least they recognized the threat of Bolshevism and tried to stop its spread.

"Judea declared war on Germany first?"

Wow, I guess that would be a suprise to all the Jewish veterans who fought for the Kaiser in WWI and who earned Iron Cross 1s and Iron Cross 2s.

Maybe you can provide a source for that declaration of war you speak of.

I'll bet money you can't though.

Yep, they did.

Made headlines too.

http://tinyurl.com/9k5dqcx

You are way too sensitive on this.

I am blaming the power elite for victimizing Jews for generations, including crimes at Auschwitz which they then exaggerated for effect. The reason they told that lie was NOT to get more sympathy for actual Judaic Jews, it was to further a narrative about the suffering of faux-Jews. Having the facts at Auschwitz changed is what they did. Why my knowing that they did that makes you so angry, and accuse me of saying things I never said or implied... You need to chill. Dig into this. There is no way to say "Nazis were bad and Jews were good" because SOME Nazis were probably wonderful people and some were pure evil. Of the Jews that were murdered, there were probably evil ones, too, but that does not justify murder without trial (like bin Laden and Gaddafi got.)
The point is, truth needs sought as the common ground, not emotional knee-jerking.

Love or fear? Choose again with every breath.

You are making Obamas point on drones killing innocents.

What "faux-Jews" are you talking about. And who taught you how to recognize what you say are "real Jews" and "faux Jews".

And yes, you cannot trivialize a million deaths or whatever the Auschwitz revision in # was.

What's the difference between 1 and 2 million murders, does that make NAZIs "less bad"? Does it make the Holocaust "less real"?

Are you FREEKING kidding me. That's the same argument Obama makes about drone deaths. "well, it was only 10 children, not 20."

"Paki"?

What?

Why is the life of one destroyed person more important, based upon religion or color, etc.?

NO life wasted in the pursuit of the elite's dream of one world government should be forgotten--

There were people of all religions, all nationalities, all ethnic groups--

who suffered.

Who died. It is important that all of them be remembered--

numbers get thrown around, I agree. How many Ukrainians were killed by Stalin? How many Estonians and Latvians and Lithuanians were killed by Stalin?

How many Japanese died in Truman's bomb attack?

Etc.

But the fact is that suffering is not found in only one group, ever.

It's important to remember that.

Calling someone a hypocrite who wants to know the truth--

when they are concerned about what *our* government is doing today to innocent children in the middle east--

a 'hypocrite incarnate' is--

well, it shows a lack of reason; you are emotional about this--

most of *us* are--

*we* can excuse each other, but no good is accomplished by calling others names for having a different perspective--

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

I agree, but you are arguing a different point.

The point on the table was "the Holocaust did not happen, because they revised down the number killed at Auschwitz."

The point is factually FALSE.

Please dont change the subject midstream, or at least make it clear you are changing the subject.

Thanks.

I have never 'denied' the Holocaust, and for the record--

there is no proof of any of the numbers for any of the killings/genocide against ANY of the people--

who kept records? How do we know? We don't--

nobody knows the exact number of deaths of anyone--

That is part of the argument; the fact that I stepped into the discussion is not invalid.

I don't have the answers; I may not share the exact same opinion that fishy does, but I saw the discussion and wanted to add my 2 bits, which I believe are valid.

Nobody knows the numbers--

Could be off by one; could be off by one hundred; could be off by a thousand, whether it's:

Belgians, French, Germans, Ukrainians, Gypsies, Jews, etc., etc., etc.--

that is a valid thing to bring to this discussion--

The fact is, however, that if a person brings this up, and the topic comes to the Jews, all h#ll breaks loose, and people start calling names; seldom do people get so upset if anyone questions the numbers about anything else--

How many died in the 'killing' fields in Laos and Cambodia? How many died in the Pacific during WWII? Nobody knows, but it's all right to discuss it, because those people aren't Jews.

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

People with dead family members....

have proof.....

When our government hauls your family members into FEMA camps never to be heard from again, which they will (for all of us) in due time, are you going to argue there's no "proof"?

Interesting.

"Anti-zionists" deny our government will haul us off...

...to FEMA camps at some point.

See the reply and downvotes! If that's not the sure sign of the "anti-zionists" on this board nothing is.

you're deliberately misunderstanding me, so . . .

I'm afraid there can't be a reasonable discussion. You are getting lost in emotion here.

Sometimes entire families are annhilated.

Sometimes there is nobody left to count--

You are being 'ridiculous'; nobody denies that people died; it is the 'number' I am suggesting can not be perfectly calculated--

You've got an axe to grind, my friend.

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

Yes, my axe to grind is with liars...

...and with people who take focus off the Word of the Bible from God and His plan and attempt to secularize the spiritual battle by attempting to blame everything on "Jews".

No, I am not deliberately misunderstanding you. I straightforwardly reject your spin.

Do you have seeds of accuracy? You most certainly do.

Now you are being an agent provocatuer, pure and simple.

Never, ever, nowhere, no time did I say the holocaust did not happen. Indeed, I specifically said the EXACT OPPOSITE.
YOU are part of the problem.

Love or fear? Choose again with every breath.

Truth

Not popular.
Recently I heard a comedian comment on the irony of creationists giving "Thumbs down" to evolutionist videos. It still cracks me up. You got one thumbs up anyway. I'll stand by you, even down to the Hitler comment. Was he good? Was he bad? Don't know, all we have is fictionalized history. I DO know that people who ask reasonable questions are imprisoned in Germany. One judge actually declared - in a trial, from the bench - that it did not matter if what the defendant said was true, it was against the law to say it.

Love or fear? Choose again with every breath.

Thanks

Thanks for not hitting me over the head FC. :)

Luke 3:38
Isaiah 43:3-5

Even if the FED DID create Israel, it's still the U.S.

My point is it couldn't have been done without us.

Whether it was the FED or not - which I wouldn't doubt for a moment, if our congress had followed our constitution and our founders' advice, they would have prohibited our involvement with it.

We can't just pawn it all off on the FED because ultimately our CONGRESS at the time had the power to allow it or not.

But then - just as today - the congress was either ignorant of our founding principles or they couldn't have cared less about them.

"We have allowed our nation to be over-taxed, over-regulated, and overrun by bureaucrats. The founders would be ashamed of us for what we are putting up with."
-Ron Paul

I never said the Fed created Israel

I never said the Fed created Israel. I said the tribe behind it were and here is a quote from one of them.

“We shall have World Government, whether or not we like it. The only question is whether World Government will be achieved by conquest or consent.”
James Paul Warburg (1896-1969) was the son of Paul Moritz Warburg, nephew of Felix Warburg and of Jacob Schiff, both of Kuhn, Loeb & Company which financed the Russian Revolution through James’ brother Max.

The Federal Reserve is a privately owned corporation. It is not American. It is owned by Jewish banking families in Europe. So is the IRS.

How can it be American? What is your reasoning in saying so?

“A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within". - Marcus Tullius Cicero

Luke 3:38
Isaiah 43:3-5

You miss the point, I think.

Granted, it was not my point, but...
Since the Fed was formed, they have controlled our government.
Did you know this:
"Congressman Lindberg said in a Congressional Record dated, December 22, 1913, vol. 51, "This new law [the Federal Reserve Act] will create inflation whenever the trusts want inflation. It may not do so immediately, but ... if the trusts can get another period of inflation, they figure they can unload the stocks on the people at high prices during the excitement and them bring on a panic and buy them back at low prices... The people may not know it immediately, but the day of reckoning is only a few years removed."
http://www.thehiddenevil.com/crash.asp

Now, ask yourself about this:
http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1...

There have been "Ron Paul" type people all along, sometimes more than one but the Fed has pretty much have run things for a long, long time. Do you know what really happened to Sonny Bono?

And to be clear, "The Fed" has decent people in it, too, I suspect. What he said was "the tribe behind the Fed."

Love or fear? Choose again with every breath.

I'm not arguing with you about the evils of the FED.

But I'll say it again - The Congress of the U.S. always has the final say in things of this nature.

If they choose to let the FED influence their decisions either by threat or bribery, then they STILL are to blame for their immorality.

That's the whole problem to begin with.

The congress CREATED the monster central bank and they have the power to tell them what the hell they can and can't do.

The problem is, only Ron Paul has understood this and had the guts to stand up against them.

But he is only ONE member of congress. He can't do it alone.

And whatever congress does by majority they do in the name of EVERY CITIZEN of this country - like it or not.

I DON'T like it because they don't follow the law of the land - our constitution - let alone the SPIRIT of it.

But as American citizens, every decision the congress makes STILL has everyone of our names on it.

"We have allowed our nation to be over-taxed, over-regulated, and overrun by bureaucrats. The founders would be ashamed of us for what we are putting up with."
-Ron Paul

Congress did NOT create the central bank.

C'mon, you know better. Jekyll Island, pushed through while Congress was in recess.
As for citizens being responsible for Congress - nonsense. The citizens were calling in against the FIRST bailout - Bush's one - at a rate of 1000 to 1 against, and they did it anyway. They have rigged our elections - how does someone get re-elected, then have an 18% approval rating one month later?
"The government" is NOT my government, I DO NOT CONSENT. I do the best I can to not draw the wrath or attention of my slave-master, but that is a practical matter of survival, not consent.

Love or fear? Choose again with every breath.

It was congress.

And it was a special session midnight on christmas eve.

History... fishy...

Splitting hairs

Congress went through the motions, but they were already bought off. Most of them were not present. The point I am not making very well is that even the people who we call "Congressmen" are not truly a legitimate government. Much of the "history" of the US is actually a history of a post-US shadow government.

Love or fear? Choose again with every breath.

That opens

That opens up another whole can of worms were politicians have been bribed or assassinated by the very same people. Not to mention instigating the "civil war" which was nothing more then a war to control what sort of economic model America would have.

“Either the application for the renewal of the charter is granted, or the United States will find itself involved in a most disastrous war". -Nathan Rothschild, of the Bank of England,

The Money Masters ~ Full Movie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfpO-WBz_mw

Luke 3:38
Isaiah 43:3-5