1 vote

Counter discourse. Eastern freethinker's perspective.

So I noticed a lot of one-sided arguments on DP after a year here. At times I've said what I think about all that - and didn't get much attention. But that doesn't mean I should stop trying to change you all for the better, regardless of the fact if either you want it or not. Problem, that is probably familiar to many of you who are active about waking people up.

Post will be long, cause I'll be providing translation of an article that in many ways describes how free-thinkers over here view the ongoing situation with regard for some history. I think it is important to understand for all of you, cause in the end that is what all freedom fighters will have to do - not only understand each other, but also use correlated efforts to our advantage.

Also to note - I'll be skipping parts of the article that I feel will be important only to those interested in us enough to know the language. Those of you who are - just follow the link in the end and read original author's text.

------------------
Original author: Andrey Orekhov

It has been 20 years since the fall of USSR and end of Warsaw pact. And, somewhere quickly, somewhere slowly, died off most notable and popular slogan: "When we are united - we are unbeatable." Even now, saying it takes my breath away.

So what came in its stead? Everyone remembers an old saying: "holy place is never empty". So the age of differences came. Age of individualism, both among simple folk and entire countrises of the former socialist camp. I remember very well the time of fall of USSR - everything around us appeared to have changed. From everywhere they said: so good that prison of nations have fallen - now ukranians, russians, belorussians - are free. The long-suffering german nation after four decades of separation - is united again. Czechs no longer abuse slovakians, because every one can build his own national country now and look into the future with confidence. And supposedly everyone will be able to take a full breath.

Almost instantly from a big loving family we became foreighners to each other, and later - even devoted foes. Russia was blamed in occupations of Baltic States, Ukraine and, of course, all other countries of the former socialist camp, including former GDR.

Now many have come to understanding who is responsible for that propaganda, what purpose does it serve. USA and it's allies in Western Europe have succeeded in pushing through their own agent in USSR - Gorbachev, who forfeited not only USSR, but also all nations and national elites of all countries from the former socialist camp. Not only USSR, but also all nations throughout Central Europe were defeted in the cold war.

It's not difficult to guess, why our former allies so blatantly blame Russia, saying that Russia held Baltic States and Central Europe as slaves for half a century. Let's look at what happened with these countries in 1989-1992. They all got massive economical crisis. Same as in former USSR countries in the 90-s. But the truth of the matter is that it was not a crisis. This was a simple pillage of those defeated in the cold war by US and it's allies, and that pillage was conducted through economical means.

Occupants put their own administrations in every conquered territory. Not hard to prove really. Just look at Baltic States. Presidents in those countries were 'imported' from US so blatantly that nobody even hides it. All as one - US citizens. All countries of Central Europe admitted USA to be their main strategical partners. And so enemy became a friend. And friend (Russia) - an enemy.

The lone exception in all that was Serbia. USA punished them for their defiance in 1998. It was a good choice of year, considering Russia's default (thanks to Yeltsin's well-paid efforts) and inability to help our friends due to that. Serbia's defiance reminds me of Russia, which, even after losing some of it's territories, didn't stop fighting. And still Serbia continued to proclaim that it's most valuable friend and partner is Russia.

Despite the US bombings and massacres, it took 7 government changes to push through euro-integration in Serbia. And yet - vast majority of serbians are speaking out against EU and for integration with Russia. There is no doubt that if we had shared boundary with Serbia - it would be a mamber of customs union long ago. Serbians show everybody else the greatest example of loyalty towards thier slavic brothers, roots and traditions.

If we look at the process of separation of peoples of the former socialist camp through prism of defeat in cold war and US occupation - everythin fits into place. Immediately you start to understand why history is being rewritten, why many specific parts of it are being targeted and vehemetly lied about. Like Katyn'. Even today documents from german archives that could convince even the most anti-soviet person are being kept classified (Naturally - all this situation started in 80-s before nobody even bothered. Facts have been ignored up until recently in 2012 European Human Rights Court - not the most trustworthy institution but still - stated that USSR had nothing to do with that. Remark by Jee-Host.).

Few hints of that earlier was so carefully silenced that you can see that it's important to some people that Russia and Poland bump heads on this issue. Obviously neither russians nor polish need that. Similarly in Poland-Ukraine relations there was a tension because of operation "Visla". But when in 2006 Yushenko became president and declared course for EU-integration - that problem suddenly and magically went away.

All elements of this huge mosaic are put in their places: if you're against Russia - you're friend, if you're for Russia - you're an enemy. Andd all these actions have only one goal - keep their colonies in a suppressed state, keep them separated and humiliated. What can little Slovakia do against USA? Or Hungary? Or even Poland? History shows that neither Poland, nor Czechoslovakia couldn't do anything agains Germany, let alone modern USA.

Even more so - many polish poeple already forgot how they were conquered by nazis, how many death camp there were on their territory. Forgot that only because their brothers-warriors of Red Army they still have Krakow and Wroclaw. 600.000 of our soldiers died on polish lands. They forgot about Hitlers special hate towards slavic peoples (masterfully conducted by West as well as Hitler's image and his coming to power), supposed role of eternal slaves for ' great aryan race', if only we lost that war.

To say it plainly - only because of USSR slavic people in Central Europe still exist and not became a part of history. Nobody says that everything was ideal in these countries, nor that is said about USSR itself.

After just 20 years all countries of the foremer socialist camp (save some of the Baltic States) became members of the EU. Or to call it what it is - the 4th Reich. What Hitler couldn't do through strength - was done by EU through economical means and propaganda. Finally coutries of Central Europe entered a family of european countries, finally their opinions matter...

Or do they?

It is obvious to everybody that voice of Germany is the loudest all the time. Sometimes matched by France and even rarer - Britain. Others - are just notaries, signing signing decision made by those three. Did standard of living in newfound EU member become as in those countries? It didn't. Was the unemployment solved? No, it became much worse. What become of industry and agriculture, which were supported by USSR at the time? In vast majority of cases they utterly degraded or become non-existent. How is the situation with poverty? Grows very fast. In Hungary, for instance, 40% of the populace live under the line of poverty.

Here and there there are some controversial articles about Poland. Some state that it has strongest economy out of those new member in the EU, that it's GDP rises even in crisis times. Others though say that more and more poeple in Poland are about to lose everything cause of debt. Nations of such countries slowly die off, birthrate is in decline, pension threshold rises.

Could all that be considered an achievment of civilization?

When you talk with poles and czechs, opinion that in times of USSR there was assurance of job and overall confidence in the day tomorrow is overwhelming. Nothing of this exists now. Paradox is that in their eyes russia represents a demon that wants to take their sovereignty 'again'. Many poles and czechs consider ukrainians to be a threat to their already depleted jobs. Thankfully, that is not a national rhetoric. However, almost everyone agrees that Ukraine should be helped into EU. Propaganda does it's dirty work.

It's good that in these countriese there are still enough people, who didn't forget how to think, analyze and not believe blatant lies and empty slogans. Numbers of awakened people are growing. Little by little they come to their senses, and those euro-integrated slavic people start to realize that this integration - is a lifeline for the West on the account of Central Europe, destruction of slavic traditions and ascendance of liberal junk - "non-accoutability freedom" - in their stead.

Despite 20 years of differences propaganda - it becomes more and more obvious that differences between slavic nations are miniscule, but what we share - is far, hundred times greater than that. There is almost no difference in mentality. All slavic people tend to be responsive and open. After just a short conversation social barrier completely disappears, which would be utterly out of character for per say anglosaxons. We speak different languages, but that is actually just an appearance.

Any ukrainian or russian needs only couple of days to adapt to each other's language. I remember one time, long ago, in my school time we went on a trip to Slovakia. So we spoke ukrainian to them and they spoke slovakian in return - 90% of things said were understood completely. Or another example. Me and my polish friend were talking via skype, and at some point he decided to invite his slovenian buddy on a condition that we all speak our native languages. And we understood each other perfectly, so nice lively conversation between three slavic brothers emerged.

What conclusion can we draw from this?

Only one comes to my mind: If one language is spread over vast territory and kept it's integrity for many centuries, then advanced slavic civilization must have existed. And in such a civilization communication means were supplied by a concrete language structure, which was understood even in the the farthest reaches of the country. And "enlightened" West was just a bunch of small sovereign countries. More over, West lacks slavic loyalty and honor. With fear and inability to comprehend they see the fact that for slavic people money and profit are not the most important thing, the fact that we protect our land to the last drop of blood.

Throughout the last millenia West constantly tried to divide slavic nations, forcing many types of differences. First and foremost - latinization of western slavs (poles, czechs, slovaks) and some southern (slovens, croatians), when cyrillic lettering was changed into latin one. Some slavs lived under occupation of Osmans, Austro-Hungary, Prussia and then Germany, which changed their genofond, affected mentality. But no irreversible encryption of consciosness was made, thankfully. Slavic spirit turned out to be strong and the hour of it's awakening is near.

In light of what had been said we can firmy conclude that all slavs - are one nation, which tends and will tend to be reunited. At times the idea of this union shone through and was supressed by West's lackeys. But, times change, and this idea grow stronger with each passing day. More and more slavic people start to think that we have our own civilization with our own values, different from those of the West. And, in light of this, Russia must yet again bear her historical role. Role of liberator and unificator.

Slowly but surely Russia grows in strength, freeing herself from West's occupation, and already firmly proclaims that russian (and be extension - slavic) civilization is to be! History repeats itself, powerful, though yet "oppositional", movements grow in Ukraine and Serbia. And soon USA's "warfare" will be pushed on their own soil (Here author points out psychological, economical and so on warfare of US government puppeteers - remark by Jee-Host.).

Reunion of Russia and Ukraine will create a huge gravity well for all other slavic nations, which will awaken their genetic memory for realizing themselves to be a part of one nation. That is what scares US so fiercely. They understand what consequence these events would bear. That is why Hillary Clinton openly stated that "USA will do everything in their power to hamper or at least slow down "immersion" of Ukraine into Russia's Customs Union and Eurasian Union."

Note the wording on that - "hamper or at least slow down" - meaning they simply don't have the means to stop it and preserve the status-quo. Soon there will be a time for another Stalingrad, one we'll win again, and USA understands that. That will signify unification of slavic world and final end of politically single-poled world.
------------------

Source: http://ru-an.info/news_content.php?id=2077

Now if you managed to sit through that and keep cool head, refer to my words in the very beginning. I completely understand that for many here this will be anything from "I don't even bother" to "enraging", but I still dare to put it on. May it be a somewhat of a measurement of you people and your ability to look forward and analyze on your own. I know there are plenty of people here who do analyze, and this article is mostly for you. What I wnat to achieve is that for you to adjust your 'creative juices' to see the bigger picture. Obviously I'm not reagarding this article as an example of sheer wisdom, it's not supposed to be so anyway. My main wish is for people, who are apt and able - to strife for knowledge of everything, to question everything and to check everything for themselves. Sounds easy enough, but I've seen unintentional hypocrisy on that so many times I don't even know even 100500 facepalm would cut it. So here goes.

Thanks for your attention.

P.S. I don't expect this to become a popular material, but anyway - please do not comment unless you have substantial point you think is really worth hearing. And don't call the title misleading - that is not the case if you read carefully. Last thing - English is not my native language, so cut me some slack.

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.

A necessary topic?

If the goal is Liberty, then there is a competitive process that works to get closer, instead of further away, to that goal.

"Immediately you start to understand why history is being rewritten, why many specific parts of it are being targeted and vehemetly lied about."

http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/literature/laureates/...

"But let us not forget that violence does not live alone and is not capable of living alone: it is necessarily interwoven with falsehood. Between them lies the most intimate, the deepest of natural bonds. Violence finds its only refuge in falsehood, falsehood its only support in violence. Any man who has once acclaimed violence as his METHOD must inexorably choose falsehood as his PRINCIPLE."

"This was a simple pillage of those defeated in the cold war by US and it's allies, and that pillage was conducted through economical means."

Check this out:

http://www.reformed-theology.org/html/books/wall_street/

That is economic means in action as those who "provide the means by which we suffer" (through fraudulent money and extorted power = The FED and IRS) finance ONE side in a scheduled World War.

The same "side" (Economic Means of Legal Fraud and Extortion = "Wall Street") finances the other side too:

http://reformed-theology.org/html/books/bolshevik_revolution/

The same "side" (legal Money Monopoly/Currently The Dollar Hegemony) financed American Military POWER too:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/13285654/Antony-Sutton-Wall-Street...

Who, exactly, is dividing who, so as to overpower the targets with economic means?

Failure to hold the actual individuals to account benefit who exactly?

"What Hitler couldn't do through strength - was done by EU through economical means and propaganda."

Wall Street is a sign, a sign post, a front on a store, a name on a business, a way to point at a number of individual people, just like Nazi or Bolshevik is a sign, a name, a label.

Which individuals are now collecting all the power that can be stolen, fraudulently, threateningly, and violently, with FALSE authority, which actual people, and can the targeted victims stop them, by not paying them anymore notice, or money, or power, or votes, or time, or energy, or bodies to torture, maim, rape, abuse, consume, before that flow of power buys World War III?

Yes or no?

"History repeats itself, powerful, though yet "oppositional", movements grow in Ukraine and Serbia. And soon USA's "warfare" will be pushed on their own soil (Here author points out psychological, economical and so on warfare of US government puppeteers - remark by Jee-Host.)."

By economic means. If the schedule repeats then all the victims in all the places where The Dollar Hegemony (a few very powerful people) takes economic POWER will be EMPOWERING another World War and to keep the victims guessing, the World Reserve Currency POWER will shift from one place to another as it did after World War II shifting from England to America. Much in the way of evidence points (much in the way of lack of "NEWS" also points) to Asia, and specifically China, as The New World Reserve Currency POWER headquarters.

Who, except the most powerful people on this planet, which are few people in number, know exactly who will be in POWER after World War III?

If you don't have the list of names, then that is a POWERLESS condition to be in.

If you are told to blame The East, or The West, then you may be told a lie - in my opinion.

There is no such thing as "The West", at least not in English, since WEST is a direction.

"That is what scares US so fiercely."

Name one person who is scared by any honest, productive, peaceful group of people anywhere else on the planet, please, and then let that one person explain, exactly, what is scary.

In this country called America, speaking for myself, I am deeply concerned about exactly how much falsehood has infected exactly how many fellow human beings on this planet, whereby the inventors of the lies, who are few in number, have overpowered their victims with those lies, and here in America those liars include these very scary names:

Ben Bernanke
Barack Hussein Obama

If those two stooges could be tried, in a Jury Trial, by any randomly selected 12 people (not hand picked by anyone else in any way), as those two, here in America, are presumed to be innocent, but charged with at least TREASON, then a process of discovery could begin in an official manner, so as to find out who else can be found guilty of TREASON during the trial.

That could stop World War III, and that could be done legally, by 12 randomly picked people in America.

No more World War III.

Why not?

Because too many people are infected with falsehood, plain and simple.

So who fears who, exactly, and if you don't ask, if you assume to know the answer, then YOU are a dictator by that measure, dictating the answer you want to hear instead of finding out the answer that exists.

__________________________________________
"That is why Hillary Clinton openly stated that "USA will do everything in their power to hamper or at least slow down "immersion" of Ukraine into Russia's Customs Union and Eurasian Union."
__________________________________________

So is Hillary Clinton one of the stooges or one of the dictators ordering the stooges to produce all these lies, threats, and violence aimed at all those innocent people who will be consumed in World War III if something effective is not done to stop those people on that list of individuals who are planning on, and who are accomplishing their new War of Aggression for their exclusive profit?

Ben Bernanke
Barack Hussein Obama
Hillary Clinton

Who do I fear? I don't fear the West or the East, but I do fear that too many otherwise honest, and productive, individual people, will be led by those 3 people, and a few other people on a relatively short list of people, into abject belief in falsehood without question where one act will lead to another based upon all those lies, whereby the combined actions are some day in the future called World War III, and the true name for those events that will later be called World War III is CRIME, in English, and to make sure as to what kind of CRIME it will be, offered as a suggestion, in English, call it what it is: Legal Crime.

Good luck with whatever it is you are doing, if it works for Liberty, then I'm for it, if it works for Legal Crime, then that is truly fearful.

"English is not my native language, so cut me some slack."

Your power to command English is worthy of note - very good.

If Americans can focus on slowing down and then stopping the flow of power from those among us who produce that power (economic means) to those among us who steal that power and use that stolen power to steal more, then World War III will no longer have those finances being used to buy all the things required for that Legal Crime to happen on that schedule.

If we in American can invent, produce, and use a competitive money other than Federal Reserve Notes, The Dollar Hegemony Money, and if we in America do so by July 4th of this year, then that Ends the FED, and The IRS, and soon after The Troops funded by that money come home.

1.
End the FED
2.
End the IRS
3.
Bring the Troops Home (not to enforce a "better" Legal Crime Cabal)

Do so by July 4th, 2013, and World War III is put on hold, defunded, and probably canceled.

China does not gain World Reserve Currency Power, and The Dollar Hegemony is no longer World Reserve Currency Power either, so competition will then work to force Legal Money quality up, and Legal Money cost down, which results in power being used to make more power, which ends up being realized as higher standards of living at lower costs of living.

What is the problem?

If the problem is known accurately, then accurate, effective, solutions to the problem can be worked toward and realized in time.

"My main wish is for people, who are apt and able - to strife for knowledge of everything, to question everything and to check everything for themselves."

I hope that my response is helpful in reaching and gaining liberty.

Joe

That is exactly the kind of response

I was hoping for. In the manner in which you conducted it anyway. So thank you for that. This summary you assembled is very helpful in terms of reference. I personally know most of what you touched in your reply (I in fact read Sutton and, of course, Solzhenitsyn). I think you are of those able to look into the heart of the matter, but I also think I have to point out couple of things that I didn't in the post itself (for a reason though it might have been).

Of course this article, translation of which I presented, doesn't reflect my own opinion. Purpose of this article was not to start debate on it's specifics, but rather inspire critical thinking in the subjects head about his own worldview. Article itself is very one-sided, hence the title. Why many points may be true factually, they are, purposefully or not, emotionally colored by the original author. I have to say that over here when we say US, we don't really mean like it's the entire US populace made a referendum and decided something. It doesn't really matter in the time of bombardment - who bombs you. It matters after or prior.

So what I want to say is the fact that you addressed many particular notions inside the article itself is commendable and it contributes to the 'informing the masses' thing. All that is good, but in many a case is not exactly necessary. Luckily, your insight and dig is deep enough overall, to make conclusions in the right direction.

Additionally I want to say a few words about war. Article itself, however politicized it may seem, never suggests an actual aggressive warfare. It's just not our way. And I'm fine with that. Social parasites eventually fail by definition, But I personally am not going to wait till they die on their own, grabbing as much as they can with them. But that is a huge part of another kind of topic.

To change perspective,broaden it and thus acquire more tools for enhancing knowledge - it is important to break stereotypes once and for all. World is not going to win or lose just because America does it or does it not. That's not how world works. If 2008 events in Georgia are not an indication of that - I don't know what is)

But anyway, thanks for you reply and I hope that my piece of mind provides some (however little) inspiration on the road to understanding.

Only as high as i reach can i grow
Only as far as i seek can i go
Only as deep as i look can i see
Only as much as i dream can i be

Very good and powerful English

"It doesn't really matter in the time of bombardment - who bombs you. It matters after or prior."

If the message transfers intact, without miscommunication, then your use of the language is good, and in this case, in my opinion, the message is very powerful.

"Article itself, however politicized it may seem, never suggests an actual aggressive warfare. It's just not our way."

That is necessary, in my opinion. That is the power behind hope, and I think that is also the message offered by Solzhenitsyn, who is an authority, a true authority, and therefore one worthy of acknowledgement, recognition, note, and to heed the message, to employ the message, and do so effectively.

Again (worth repeating):

"Article itself, however politicized it may seem, never suggests an actual aggressive warfare. It's just not our way."

Too often those who exist well, in powerful positions, by their resort to crime, defined by them as they perpetrate crime, as they lie, and as they threaten, and as they resort to violence, tell a lie first, and the lie is such that their targets are demonized as violent monsters.

See, they say, all those violent monsters in the East, or West, or North, or South, see how those monsters are so eager to destroy us.

So what is necessary? Stop believing in those lies, and ask someone, and listen to the answer, and then find out the facts as the targets are allowed to speak for themselves. It can be known, for example, that Solzhenitsyn was a target, and if someone says, hey, look at all those Russians, they are monsters, they are wanting to destroy us, and so someone wanting to know the truth can pick up a book, written by a Russian, or pick up a Forum article, written by a Russian, and heed the warnings.

What warnings?

"Article itself, however politicized it may seem, never suggests an actual aggressive warfare. It's just not our way."

OK, well, if that is true, then who are the monsters, if not them, since bombs have fallen, many bombs, and bodies have piled up, many bodies, so who, then, is stretching the truth?

Well, seriously, who is making a lot of money from those wars that no one confesses to be wanting, those same wars that someone, somewhere, is pointing fighters at the monsters.

So, reasonably, OK, you say, they are monsters, you say that, Clinton H, Bernanke B, or whoever, you say so, and therefore let those monsters speak. Let's hear what those monsters have to say.

"Article itself, however politicized it may seem, never suggests an actual aggressive warfare. It's just not our way."

All of us can't be defending ourselves from no one. Who, exactly, are the monsters, and why not, as a possible valid idea, why not follow the money to the people who just so happen to be getting more and more powerful before, during, and after each war?

Russians?

No

A few, very few, people in Russia?

Maybe

When was the last profitable war fought by any Russian and how much money is in that Russians bank account, and how did that money actually get in that account, exactly?

I mean to say that if there is someone somewhere who is so ready to call someone else a monster then that someone, by definition, could prove the claim to be a fact, and not in theory, but by some accurate measure.

If the claim is true, hey, hey, hey, over there, is a monster, and there is another one too, if so, then by some means, that claim can be realized by someone else, as being true, before someone then rushes to get a bomb to drop on the target.

Yes or no?

"To change perspective,broaden it and thus acquire more tools for enhancing knowledge - it is important to break stereotypes once and for all."

I think the English word prejudice may be useful in this case.

If person A claims that person B is a monster, or group B are all monsters, and the claim is done in such a way as to further say, that we must destroy those monsters, then the claim can either be backed up as being a true fact or not, and if not then the claim is based upon a judgment made before the facts are known.

Previous to any effort to find, measure, and know the facts, in other words, previous to judgement, the targets are made targets by the person making the claim - prejudice.

Another useful English term, in this context, is collective punishment.

Hey, that person is caught red handed, that person is, as we speak, busy torturing and murdering innocent people, see, see how the bodies are piled up, hear the screams of the victims, as that person, right there, that person, see, that person is a monster, no doubt, and that person has a big nose.

So...everyone with a big nose is punished since that one person with the big nose is so busy torturing and murdering so many people.

So...the person with the smaller nose starts torturing and murdering all the people with big noses, for what?

Fun or profit?

Fun can be measured by following the laughter.

Profit can be measured more accurately.

Joe

Enjoyed the rant.

"So what is necessary? Stop believing in those lies, and ask someone, and listen to the answer, and then find out the facts as the targets are allowed to speak for themselves."

I think it's worth saying that everyone should stop believing... Period. Believing as a term suggest taking on faith, without any proof. Which is in itself - an extremely dangerous way to go about anything, especially worldview.

"If the claim is true, hey, hey, hey, over there, is a monster, and there is another one too, if so, then by some means, that claim can be realized by someone else, as being true, before someone then rushes to get a bomb to drop on the target.

Yes or no?"

If you have an actual rapist or murderer (typical low social parasite) in your custody - can you really take a risk of releasing him/her just hoping he/she changes? Killing anyone, even such individual - does damage to your own self, no matter your own mindset about it. And any such damage is irreparable - it can only be compensated by some other effort, but not undone. So at some point there a decision will have to be made about beaten social parasites. One that as history tells us - often made wrong.

"I think the English word prejudice may be useful in this case."

You are probably right. prejudices are very persistent, especially among those people who didn't acquire their information on their own. who didn't think it through and didn't make it their knowledge. And this plagues US liberty movement a lot. For example - if I even mention that I consider gays to be a medical condition above anything - I instantly get trolled, sneered and spammed with "you're ignorant, you don't even consider moral side of the issue" at most. Instead of at least listening to my argument and fact regarding it - everyone is stuck in "It's impossible just because". Very few people actually do listen and even fewer - make correlative research on the subject. That is a hardcore baseless prejudice as I see - when people don't even care about your rationel.

"Another useful English term, in this context, is collective punishment."

That is more based on stereotypes I think. Any decision you make in your life is unique. So are decisions about somebody else. But it's always tied to any collective approach. You can always find things to point your finger at. For instance - liberty movement proclaims liberty in everything - including liberty to be stupid in your decisions. Even this gives (and rightly so) so many opportunities to call hypocrisy. But let's make additional step. We can't really allow children to do anything they want, do we? So we restrict them. And our bubbly liberty-minded generalization doesn't work anymore, cause we willfully make a distiction. What that all tells us? That this generalization to describe an idea is in fact to the detriment of the idea itself. All I want to say that collective punishment will never be a problem, if we move the right direction from the beginning. And that can only be done on your own, not following some leader. Otherwise we have complete chaos, everyone has "his personal opinion" that you "must respect" or bust. No knowledge, no evolution is gained by species as the result.

Only as high as i reach can i grow
Only as far as i seek can i go
Only as deep as i look can i see
Only as much as i dream can i be

Discussion (listening) is possible.

Rare but possible.

"For instance - liberty movement proclaims liberty in everything - including liberty to be stupid in your decisions. Even this gives (and rightly so) so many opportunities to call hypocrisy. But let's make additional step. We can't really allow children to do anything they want, do we?"

If you listen to someone who makes a claim about what is or is not Liberty, then you have one viewpoint and that one viewpoint is relevant, or having to do with, that one moment in time and place.

If you want to listen to my viewpoint, then you can see how well my viewpoint compares to any other one.

Put two viewpoints side by side and have a competition (In Liberty) of viewpoints as such:

A.
"For instance - liberty movement proclaims liberty in everything - including liberty to be stupid in your decisions. Even this gives (and rightly so) so many opportunities to call hypocrisy. But let's make additional step. We can't really allow children to do anything they want, do we?"

B.
People who make mistakes in liberty pay the costs of their mistakes in liberty and if those people who make mistakes choose to pass on the costs of their mistakes by resorting to deceit, threats of violence, or violence, then that ends liberty in that case, as liberty is set aside in favor of crime for that person who chooses, voluntarily, to end liberty. So...compounding the original mistake, where the person in liberty refuses to pay for their own mistake, that person in liberty makes a second mistake which is the mistake called crime and once on that path, the crime path, which is opposite the liberty path, the criminal has to commit two more crimes for each crime, two more lies for each lie, two more threats for each threat, and two more acts of violence for each act of violence on that path, or, return to liberty by paying all the costs within the criminals power to pay, which is then a return to liberty. Note: No mention in this viewpoint of the factor of charity, which is a human power transfer of notable scale.

So what does "liberty movement" say now, right now, after you read, and presumably understand, that last voice in liberty written above competitively, side by side, in a free market of ideas, while avoiding any resort to deceit, threats of violence, or violence where anyone of us may be choosing to pass on costs.

You see, this is the link that links "West" and "East", and this is the link that links "Socialism" and "Capitalism", and this is the link that links those divided by the Legal Criminals so as to then have the targets combine their defensive power against Legal Criminals instead of having our divided power used against us so that we all remain victims.

The reason so few people at the top of the Legal Crime Cabal gain so much power is the reason of transfers of Unearned Income from those who earn it, to those who steal it, and use the stolen loot to steal more.

Passing on costs.

The false capitalists (fascists) demand subsidy for the rich, which divides all the targets into those willing to lie, cheat, and steal to be rich, and those who have to work even harder to make a living.

Left and Right?

No, it is Might (falsely) making Right.

False socialists [Bolsheviks/Communists (who were not socialists by their own words)] demand to take from those who earn riches and give to those who do not earn riches and that divides the targets up into those willing to lie, cheat, and steal to be rich, and those who have to work even harder to make a living.

It is very difficult for me, being in the West, to find anyone willing to recognize the fact that there was, and still is, a voluntary form of socialism which is as valid, and as competitive as the voluntary form of capitalism once both are understood and accurately measured to be exactly what they are, and not anything other than exactly what they are, because of what you are confirming to me to be factual reality.

This:

"That is more based on stereotypes I think. Any decision you make in your life is unique. So are decisions about somebody else. But it's always tied to any collective approach. You can always find things to point your finger at."

But then, as you know that exists, you do it yourself. The liberty movement does not say anything, people say things, competitive things are said by people, and which things said are more accurate than which other things said in this movement away from crimes made legal as people work to move as far from crime made legal as possible, and as movement is made away from crime made legal, then people find themselves IN liberty.

"We can't really allow children to do anything they want, do we? So we restrict them. And our bubbly liberty-minded generalization doesn't work anymore, cause we willfully make a distiction. What that all tells us? That this generalization to describe an idea is in fact to the detriment of the idea itself."

The concept of independence of mind and body applies to how human beings reproduce, and certainly that process does not apply to how human beings account for each others responsibilities otherwise.

In other words:

A Parent who allows their (ownership in a sense) children to drink mercury will pay the cost of having a dead child - the child pays the cost too, but the child is not yet "responsible" or "accountable" or "independent" or "autonomous" or "self sufficient", so that accountability PROBLEM is a human reproduction PROBLEM and that is not a problem found among responsible, accountable, independent, autonomous, and self sufficient people who may or may not have children being raised into responsible, accountable, independent, autonomous, and self sufficient human beings.

A responsible, accountable, independent, autonomous, and self sufficient person does not need diaper changes, that is a dependent person, not an independent person; etc.

"We can't really allow children to do anything they want, do we? So we restrict them. And our bubbly liberty-minded generalization doesn't work anymore, cause we willfully make a distiction. What that all tells us? That this generalization to describe an idea is in fact to the detriment of the idea itself."

The methods I use to raise my kids are none of your business unless I'm injuring those dependent people and then they need help from anyone, since I am a criminal, and I torture, and then murder my own children, but otherwise, my children, are mine, and you, or anyone else had better not impose your will upon me, having to do with how "we" raise our kids.

So there are two different subjects here, as Liberty does not apply to raising children, except in the capacity of moral common sense, since a person murdering another person, or a person torturing another person, is wrong, even when a parent does it to a child, but raising children, a natural dependence the child must depend upon, is not the stuff of Liberty.

Liberty is the stuff of political economy, the stuff of who is paid what, for what, by whom, and how anyone deals with the criminals, on and on, in the POWER struggle among responsible, accountable, independent, autonomous, and self sufficient human beings.

If you are not passing on costs (committing a crime), by resort to deceit, threats of violence, or violence, upon an innocent victim, then whatever else you do, is none of my business.

In other words there is no need for me, or anyone, to intervene on behalf of the victim, when there is no victim.

In other words: a child/parent relationship is not voluntary, the child does not choose to be borne, at least not as far as I know, so that child/parent relationship is not the stuff of Liberty, it is not either/or voluntary or involuntary association stuff chosen by responsible, accountable, independent, autonomous, and self sufficient human beings.

I hope my words help in conveying what I, as a member of the West Liberty movement see when I see this liberty movement happening here in the West.

"All I want to say that collective punishment will never be a problem, if we move the right direction from the beginning."

The right direction from the beginning, in accurately measurable accounting processes, is to avoid abandoning victims, and avoid becoming criminals (convicting innocent people and then punishing innocent people).

That is a viewpoint of LAW, or Common Law, or Natural Law, or perhaps, if there are any spiritual people willing to compete in this contest of viewpoints, that is also God's Law (in other words).

1.
Don't just allow victims to be tortured and murdering (in your kitchen or half way around the world).

2.
Don't torture and murder people as if doing so was the method by which torture and murder victims are "saved".

The economic law, on the other hand, has to be set onto the right path from the beginning too, and again that can be a precise account that utilizes accurate accounting processes, whereby no one passes on costs (unearned income) by way of deceit, threats of violence, or violence upon the innocent (crime) as a supposed means of accomplishing anything, since that is precisely the full measure of crime.

If a brilliant genius claims that the way to begin is to force everyone to pay me so I can then make everything good, then that is an evil genius, and it may be time to stop listening to evil geniuses.

"All I want to say that collective punishment will never be a problem, if we move the right direction from the beginning."

So what is the right direction from the beginning?

"And that can only be done on your own, not following some leader. Otherwise we have complete chaos, everyone has "his personal opinion" that you "must respect" or bust. No knowledge, no evolution is gained by species as the result."

Have you read the work of Bakunin?

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/m/mikhail_bakunin....

"Political Freedom without economic equality is a pretense, a fraud, a lie; and the workers want no lying."

I have not read much from Bakunin but I have read his contemporaries in the West, which are Josiah Warren, Stephen Pearl Andrews, and Lysander Spooner.

Political Economy is a power struggle, it is the human condition, and understanding it aught to be a goal, instead of human life being a goal to pay the best liars the most earnings for lying best.

Joe

Thanks for the perspective.

"History repeats itself, powerful, though yet "oppositional", movements grow in Ukraine and Serbia. And soon USA's "warfare" will be pushed on their own soil (Here author points out psychological, economical and so on warfare of US government puppeteers - remark by Jee-Host.)."

Very informative

Not sure if this qualifies as substantive commentary enough but I just wanted to say that none of the article's insight seems to reach to propagandized west in any other form. Perhaps we can learn something from a better exposure of this and similar information.

Thank you for posting this.

If so, I will try make more posts

with view from our side. And not just translation of a politicized article (like this one), but with more meaty facts to boot.

Only as high as i reach can i grow
Only as far as i seek can i go
Only as deep as i look can i see
Only as much as i dream can i be