15 votes

What will it take for you to quit supporting murder?

What will it take for you to withdraw your support of our tyrannical government?

When will you give up your fear of the Nanny State and quit paying your taxes?

Jail serves three meals a day.

Are you scared? Provide an answer then.

Answer my question. How far must the central government go?




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I disagree as would many historically prominent Americans...

such as Thoreau.

You are lying to yourself to justify your compliance.

Are all victims of crime responsible for their victimization...

because they didn't stop the criminal, and are morally equivalent to their assailant?

I think Rothbard rather than Thoreau, has the correct answer.

There will be a day to fight this, eventually we will have the manpower to make the state irrelevant.

But first we need to educate, we need build our numbers.

Pick your battles.

You can mount a suicidal charge against the enemy all on your own, or you can wait for reinforcements to arrive and get the job done.

Check out the Laissez-Faire Journal at LFJournal.com


"The State is a gang of thieves writ large." - Murray Rothbard

"I'll keep paying because I'm reluctant to stand on principle"..

is what I hear.

We must lead by example.

There were only 25% that agreed with the first revolution. To hell with waiting on the other 75%.

We must be willing to be unafraid of consequences to make any headway. Complying with tyranny is supporting tyranny.

What principle am I refusing to stand on?

I don't agree with you that a victim of theft, is morally culpable for what the thief does with their money.

The principle I stand on its the Non-Aggression Principle, that it is wrong to initiate violence against innocent people.

I agree that taxation violates this principle, and I condemn it.

But there is nothing in the NAP, that requires you to act or not to act on it.

In fact many NAP adherents are complete pacifists.

This is a discussion of strategy, not of principle.

I agree that action is necessary, but I disagree with you that everyone should just pick a random hill to die on, and I believe that we should instead organize for maximum effectiveness.

We agree that action must be taken, but disagree with timing.

Check out the Laissez-Faire Journal at LFJournal.com


"The State is a gang of thieves writ large." - Murray Rothbard

You are wrong... Adherence to NAP is NOT passivism...

Defense of liberties is inherent in the non-aggression principle. That is a fundamental misunderstanding of NON-libertarians.

Participation is the only thing that supports tyranny... nothing else.

I never said the NAP was pacifism

I said it doesn't require you to act or not to act, and that's why there are many NAP adherents who are pacifists.

You can respond with defensive force, or choose not to, neither would violate the NAP.

Check out the Laissez-Faire Journal at LFJournal.com


"The State is a gang of thieves writ large." - Murray Rothbard

YOU SAID:

"In fact many NAP adherents are complete pacifists."

How do you draw this conclusion?

Because many NAP adherents are pacifists.

I did not say ALL, or that it was required.

In fact I said quite the opposite.

The NAP does not require one to act or not to act, you can act defensively or choose not to, either choice is in line with the NAP.

I don't see your complaint, are you saying that there aren't libertarians that are pacifists?

Check out the Laissez-Faire Journal at LFJournal.com


"The State is a gang of thieves writ large." - Murray Rothbard

I'm saying that libertarian philosophy includes...

defense of liberties.

To not defend one's liberties is not consistent with libertarian philosophy.

To not defend one's liberties is to say - "Ok, go ahead and take my liberty." That's not a libertarian action. That's the action of a compliant follower of democratic philosophy.

Then tell it to the pacifists...

But they aren't violating the Non-Aggression Principle.

Check out the Laissez-Faire Journal at LFJournal.com


"The State is a gang of thieves writ large." - Murray Rothbard

That may very well be...

But it is not a violation of the NAP, to be a pacifist, or to be selective in which battles you fight in defense of liberty, or when selective of when you fight those battles.

Check out the Laissez-Faire Journal at LFJournal.com


"The State is a gang of thieves writ large." - Murray Rothbard

It is certainly NOT consistent with libertarian philosophy...

too give up liberty at the first sign of tyranny.

Libertarian philosophy serves to maintain liberty regardless of the cost.

"A person that sacrifices liberty for security deserves neither."

Now we are veering far off course.

Nobody is advocating giving up liberty at the first sight of tyranny.

I was explaining to you that the NAP is not violated by pacifism, I was not endorsing pacifism.

Let's get back on track.

If you believe someone who pays taxes to avoid imprisonment is morally culpable for what the state does with their money, are you currently paying taxes?

When you go to a store do you pay sales taxes?

Are you yourself not then supporting murder?

Check out the Laissez-Faire Journal at LFJournal.com


"The State is a gang of thieves writ large." - Murray Rothbard

I'm not arguing for anyone to pay taxes.

I'm arguing that you aren't an accomplice to a thief's crimes, because you were robbed.

Perhaps you should read more carefully.

Check out the Laissez-Faire Journal at LFJournal.com


"The State is a gang of thieves writ large." - Murray Rothbard

If the tax CAN be avoided, one is complicit...

...

You can choose not to eat, or grow your own food..

but instead you are paying sales taxes when you can avoid them, so why aren't you complicit?

Check out the Laissez-Faire Journal at LFJournal.com


"The State is a gang of thieves writ large." - Murray Rothbard

I do avoid sales tax and grow my own food...

...

Don't pretend to me that you don't pay sales taxes ever...

You buy gasoline, you buy food from stores, you have payed sales taxes before.

Check out the Laissez-Faire Journal at LFJournal.com


"The State is a gang of thieves writ large." - Murray Rothbard

Ever heard of a tax free card?

...

what is a tax free card?

And also, I can't help it, but I am thinking of the 2012 Libertarian presidential candidate, Gary Johnson, who advocated a "fair" tax. What was the percentage 23% of something like that. Did you want him as a president even tho he advocated taxes?

If government was in check...

a consumption tax would be best.

I did support Gary and am unashamed.

A tax free card means that one doesn't have to pay taxes. One only has to present the card. I don't have one personally, but my dad has the exact same name as me. I'm a junior. I avoid taxes as much as possible.

Is there such a thing as a tax free card?

I liked Ron Paul's "Keep the fruit of your labor" so I balked at the Fair Tax idea. I wasn't trying to shame you, I was trying to figure out about the idea of not paying taxes, but supporting someone who advocated taxes.

I kinda wonder if a government can be in check and remain in check when it taxes. It seems like a lot of power is collected in a central location which attracts the wrong kind of power.

I would really like a Tax Free Card though.

There is such a thing as a tax free card...

...

Is this what you mean?

http://www.global-blue.com/customer-services/tax-free-shoppi...

Sorry to be butting in, but I would like to know how to get a tax free card.

OMG what a joke....

You were trying to lecture others this whole time that they if they don't go to jail, instead of paying extortion money that they are an accomplice to the thief, AND YOU ADVOCATE A NATIONAL CONSUMPTION TAX!

This is hilarious!

I can't wait to hear how you try to explain this as not violating the Non-Aggression Principle or not being an attack on liberty.

I'll go make some popcorn, this should be a great show.

Check out the Laissez-Faire Journal at LFJournal.com


"The State is a gang of thieves writ large." - Murray Rothbard

I supported Gary Johnson because he was a better choice..

than Barry O. or Mitt Romney.

Eat your popcorn.

Ya, I'm sure you never ever ever ever pay sales taxes...

drop the charade.

Check out the Laissez-Faire Journal at LFJournal.com


"The State is a gang of thieves writ large." - Murray Rothbard

Well, I don't....

So, you may as well quit trying to back me in that corner.