24 votes

I don't understand...

I don't understand why being atheist, anarchist, and/or protector of liberty you stand on the positive for the killing of infants through abortion.

I am pro choice too. You can choose to have the baby or give the baby up for adoption.

Sick of it.

Edit: Because people seem to be talking about this (I am glad; I didn't expect anyone, just was ranting), I am going to propose my argument against abortion as an anarchist and atheist.

The quick and dirty version (probably out of order haven't fleshed all this out):
P: Property rights are to be respected.
P: Your body is property that you own.
P: You own your body because you grow your body.
P: The mother helps you grow your body like watering a plant.
P: The mother is holding on to your property until you become sentient enough to take ownership of it.
P: The mother cannot destroy what is rightfully yours.
P: Profit?? LOL
C: Abortion is not permissible.

I know this is not in the correct format or whatever. I'm not an expert on logic or philosophy. I think you can understand what I am getting out here though. I haven't heard it anywhere else and I thought of it on my own (Was really proud of myself haha).

Do you like my the rough draft of my argument?



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To me A does not = K

If there's no heartbeat I don't see it as killing a human that was never alive. To me what a woman chooses to do in the first 6-7 weeks is her business.

-Matt

I used to feel the same way

And say "a woman has a right to choose" what to do with her body, though I wouldn't choose it. After reading Ron Paul's "Liberty Defined," I have solidified my belief that this is a moral issue and once this "hook-up culture" changes, the laws will follow. I also think men need to stop copping out & make it their business too, as they are 50% of the equation...

Who knew today's algebra and abortion debates....

were kissing cousins???

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Gilligan's picture

It's not often to find such a thoughtful and civil debate

on such a controversial topic. Good job!

Google is government.

You Said It

The maturity displayed in this discussion is heartening.

Here's what Judge Napolitano had to say

in an interview from November 2011 with ReasonTV.

Nick Gillespie asks:

"Let's talk about some of the dicier issues, or ones that separate libertarians among themselves. In your book, you talk about the right to own your own body, but then you're also very pro-life - you're anti-abortion. So, where does the right to own your own body stop, and where does the right to the infant or the fetus or the potential human life begin?"

Judge Napolitano answers:

"I believe - and it is a question of science and it is a question of faith - that a fertilised egg is a human being. It is the by-product of copulation by two human beings (I'm not talking about some scientist and a petri dish, now) and it has a full human genome: and I accept that as a definition.

"Stated differently, it has all the chemical and biological make-up necessary to become human with the [potential] to become a person as we understand it - a post-natal person with nourishment."

Nick Gillespie seeks to clarify:

"Now that's a fertilised egg that has been implanted in the uterine wall, not just simply a fertilised egg?"

Judge Napolitano continues:

"Correct. If we can't draw the line there, there is no intellectually acceptable place to draw the line other than 'the convenience of the mother'.

"So when I say, 'You have the right to own your own body,' the fetus is not your body. People say, 'It is easy for you to say that because you're not a woman' - I am obviously not a woman - but I say it because of my fidelity to some basic libertarian virtues: the primacy of the individual; the individual is greater than the state; [and] the state cannot, without the greatest violation of moral law, authorise one human being to take the life of another."

The full video (OP is somewhere on this site):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lA_Yl_JCdFg

I believe in the freedom to be what we choose to be.

That is a really good statement

Imagine if you will the following conversation:

W: "You can't tell a woman what to do with her body!"

Me: "I agree."

W: "So you are pro-choice?"

Me: "Absolutely!"

W: "But I thought you just said you were against abortion."

Me: "Correct. The woman can do what she wants with her body. The body inside her is the baby's body. The woman may choice to have the baby and keep it, or give it up for adoption. I am pro choice."

Thanks for the post.

Abortion is safe and legal...

...hopefully it will stay that way. It would be very ironic for a "liberty-movement" to forcefully take away a women's right to choose what they want in their body based on an opinion of morality.

Then you won't mind if..

I just choice to put my penis in your butt hole right?

I mean... You wouldn't want to put a debbie-downer on my freedom right?

I think you got the whole "freedom" thing a little bit skewed.

hahhaha

Your an idiot

I just now saw this

You're*

Still anti-abortion.

And you're calling me an idiot?

....

You're an idiot.

i'm interested

to learn what you think the solution is. this country has tried it both ways. illegal and legal. when it was illegal, it didn't stop. what's the goal, exactly? to eliminate abortion? if it's already been tried using government without success, how do you think it can finally be curbed? do you think more government is the answer?

if not, what do you think is the answer?

the goal is to

the goal is to de-legitimatize abortion by making it illegal; it has nothing to do with effectiveness. a society that legally accepts the murder of the unborn is one that has truly fallen.

not a bad veiw point

but, you're right. it won't stop it from happening. and it's sad.

Abortion is part of a broad

Abortion is part of a broad eugenics program. It's just the beginning, so make sure it stops where it is. Through abortion, society has been conditioned to devalue human life. We see this in Obamacare death panels, imagine in 2030 when senior citizens (projected to be a majority w/ hispanics) are a strain on depleting resources. They want to choose who lives and who dies.

It's all about control

i agree

i don't think abortion is a good thing. i'm wondering how this is truly solved. because i'm against big or bigger government. it should be in the states hands, i think we can agree on that. but would even that stop it from happening?

how does someone prevent a person from making bad decisions? i would consider murder a bad decision, to put it mildly.

The Issue of Abortion

is a slight of hand for tptb just like race and many other "issues" that keep our attention off things like HOW MANY KIDS ARE BEING KILLED BY DRONES for the sake of MONEY! Whether you believe in abortion or not is really irrelevant compared to the murder of hundreds of children ALREADY LIVING if you ask me. Worry about THOSE people and when THAT problem is solved THEN move on to abortion! Are you aware that Clinton killed over 500,000 children in Iraq due to sanctions? Do you anti abortion people even CARE about THAT? Why do so many people focus on protecting fertilized eggs and NOT on LIVING BREATHING, THINKING SCARED TO DEATH little kids that are being blown to bits by our freaking government daily? I don't understand people at all!

skippy

Couple things

I really don't like it when PEOPLE try to emphasis WORDS by caps locking the words. It is really pointless TO me.

Also, yes I am aware that other murders happen.

I was a wee bit disturbed by your comment though when you said "worry about the children already living."
These kids were alive and then were killed and you don't seem to understand that very simple concept.

And this man isn't a one trick pony. I have many topics that I am frustrated about it just so happens that today it is people that are atheist usually tend to be liberal and pro-killing of children before they are vaginal born...or at least from what I have seen (happy now jerkoff who I responded to above that got all butt-hurt? Lol) I do my part in telling people how Obama has bombed 6 countries but really? No one wants to hear it or cares. They think Libya; meh. Must be a good reason. Whatever, did you watch sports last night?

I think it's backwards

Abortion is ageism at it's nadir. Too young to protect itself, the most innocent of human life are, "dehumanized".. "They are not even people!" And thus begins the "cult of death".

Those who are pro-life I know, don't discriminate on age, as many are antiwar too.

MSM shows us what they want us to believe.. that pro-life is pro-war, and while there may be the few who are, I don't personally know any, and I know many pro-lifers.

Women have choice

There IS choice -- to have or not have sex. After you get pregnant, the choice has already been made.

GASP! Yes, I'm female. I'm not bullied by my husband, and I enjoy sex. I also believe that if you're going to engage in sex, you should be prepared for consequences of all kinds, pregnancy included.

For those times when sex is non-consensual (rape/incest), I also believe that there are other options that will ENABLE and SUPPORT women, not add to their emotional pain. (There are studies, look them up.)

Abortion destroys more than one life.

Where do I begin to look them up?

For those times when rape/incest is non-consentual, and it continues for years, and the victims words fall of deaf ears, and society let's them down, and sex is never enjoyable, but always a constant reminder of the mental and physical abuse that began as a child, I'm very curious what studies you have.

I am a victim. I have never been married. I never will never because of my experience and I only found relief when my father died.

He lied about it for decades and no one believed me, until he finally admitted it, and it "killed" my Mother, who died less than a month after he confessed.

I have been to many groups, years of therapy, and I'm really curious what studies you have that provide options and support, because in all my decades, I never found any that actually did anything but placate at best. I don't need a pity party. What I needed was TRUTH and justice!

He also abused my sister, and she went to work in brothels. I went there once, thought I would rescue her, and I was able to talk to many women there. I didn't meet one who was into sex. They all wanted to be LOVED, but conditions in life, and I'm sure many were like my sister and me, left them turning TRICKS for money.. the better the TRICK the better the money.

So please.. help me out there with those studies.

THANK YOU.

My point was

that they are studies (perhaps not the right word) that show that abortion doesn't "fix" rape or incest when pregnancy is the result, and that sometimes, it compounds it. (http://www.physiciansforlife.org/content/view/238/26/). Regarding getting help, I can look into that if you'd like, but it seems like you've attempted that.

Sometimes we have to deal with sh*t in our lives, and I'm sorry you had to deal with what seems like a big pile of it. That being said, I will stand by my belief that choosing life in these circumstances may be better than choosing death.

juneau

I am sincerely interested in any information or sources that help rape victims move past surviving to thriving. We stand together in standing for life. The gap between needing help, and getting help, is like the difference between living in Hell and reaching Heaven on Earth. I'm only open because it's my way to help victims know they are not alone and they can overcome.

The fact you have a happy marriage is a blessing that helps victims by giving hope and something to strive for. Stand TALL!

First

I am so terribly sorry to hear what you have gone through and I cannot stress my sympathy enough.

All I can say is be happy that you are alive. Life is fucking awesome. Even when it sucks and everything around you is full of shit, life ie beautiful. Go sit next to a tree and you can feel the Earth's energy. :)

I am adopted. My mother (no idea where father was in this) decided to give me up for adoption right after birth.

It would have been much easier for her to just get rid of me but nope, she gave me life. I am thankful she did this because I enjoy living (not always but I do now)!

It sounds like you are part of an abusive father, and that's a whole nother issue besides abortion. Happiness is a choice and being suicidal (have a huge scar on my arm near my main vain to prove it) I know what I am talking about. :)

I don't know what else to tell you because I can tell you are feeling sad right now; be happy to be alive. Look at space, stars, and see you are from fuckinng stars! That's incredible.

Listen to some Niel DeGrasse Tyson and just be amazed by everything he says! Lol

Love

Happiness is a choice I strive for ((((((timmy12688)))))))

I am not feeling sad ((((((((((((timmy12688))))))))))))))

It was not my fault. I didn't do anything wrong, so I do not have guilt, or saddness, about what happened anymore.

It was much harder when I was little and no one would believe me.

Now that I am much older, and been through a lot of therepy and counselling.. I'm fine. It's why I can talk about it openly.

The fact you reached out to me, admitting your own pain, and showing me the light and giving LOVE.. I THANK GOD for you ((((timmy12688))))) I am grateful to your mother for having the heart, brains, and guts to bring YOU into this world, because ((((((timmy12688))))))) YOU are they kind of human that makes this world a better place for being here.

May God pour his abundant blessings upon you constantly and make you strong, because I know.. YOU have a big job to do here. God does not give everyone the wonderful ability to LOVE.. and you have a wonderful gift. I think you may be a healer.

(((((((((((((timmy12688)))))))))))))))))

Ugh... I hate to say this

But I loved your comment until you gave all the thanks and credit to my loving character to a god.

There is no evidence this being exists to me. You saying that some object/being gave me that love rather than myself is very degrading to myself and insulting to my character. I developed those traits through deep and thoughtout thoughts twith the help of friends and self reflection

Not a problem ((((((((((((((((timmy12688))))))))))))

Take it as it pleases YOU.

My father was an objectivist, HATED GOD with a passion that was crule. I ran aay from home when I was 15, and could, sought God, but found life. I wrestled with the concept of God for decades, completely denied God, so why would I deny you the same freedom of choice? I don't.

Now that I have GOD, my life is so completely outstanding and wonderful. I am so HAPPY. My life is PERFECT, I have NO FEAR and only hope you are as fortunate, blessed, gifted and LOVED as I am.

Peace be with you!!!

I can't speak for men

but women like to walk the very safe fence: "I would never have an abortion because I think it's murder, but it's not my right to tell other women not to have an abortion." WHAT?! If it's murder, it's murder. Grow some and stick up for the innocent life within who can't speak up to save his/her own life.

I'm with you on this one, timmy. Sick of it.

do you think these women

who don't share your view belong in prison?