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Bitcoin Debate- Silver Shield vs. Brother John F

Bitcoin Debate- Silver Shield vs. Brother John F

http://youtu.be/9Y4T0t_ZWXE

A debate on whether the Bitcoin is a Fiat currency or not, compared to Real Silver .




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Bitcoin is more FRN than it is Silver.

What is important here, is that Bitcoin is not redeemable, and it is not money by virtue of its own value; Bitcoin is just nebulous computer data.

Silver is something of value.

This is the most important difference, and something that Bitcoin supporters don't understand. Bitcoins and FRN's are trading vehicles; a means to an end. Gold and Silver are beautiful precious metals, and an end in their own right.

When you receive a Bitcoin, or a dollar, what matters is what you can get for it -- material enrichment. When you receive Gold, or Silver, you've been materially enriched.

Well Put

There are so many uses for Gold and Silver, not only as Money, but many other things. Try doing that with a Bitcoin or FRN

"Never be afraid to raise your voice for honesty and truth and compassion against injustice and lying and greed. If people all over the world...would do this, it would change the earth. "
— William Faulkner
twitter.com/@Battleforce3327

An eloquent way of making the

An eloquent way of making the point I try to make.

Please come join my forum if you're not a trendy and agree with my points of view.

Bitcoin CAN'T BE fiat currency

Unless/until there is a law forcing it to be accepted. Real money is whatever people freely choose to use to an extent that people no longer consider it mainly to be anything other than money.

Fiat currency requires fiat.

Whether bitcoin is a good money is another question. I think it is a decent money, because it exists in a world of fiat currency. Since there are not as many laws against using it as there are traditional competitors of fiat currencies, such as gold or silver. Try to use silver and you face a lot more hurdles than bitcoins. But they will figure it out in time and smack bitcoin too.

In a free market I don't think there would ever be bitcoins, but in our world they seem to be a good option. If they are really not counterfeitable they might survive even if we ever got a free market. But I think they are only initially viable because they compete in a fiat currency world.

Just remember that while they aren't a fiat currency, but they can become fiat non currency with a stroke of legislation by some jackweed like Chuck Schumer. Caveat emptor.

I don't like the idea of bitcoin at all.

I'm actually quite surprised that there seem to be alot of people here on DP that seem to like the Idea of bitcoin. I'm on Chris Duanes side, bitcoin is absolutely nothing. It would be easier to manipulate than even FRN's. How can you even tell really how many bitcoins are in circulation now?

Beep beep boop beep... I am a Paulbot... prepare for liberty and prosperity!

the blockchain

The "blockchain" is the general ledger of Bitcoin. It shows every bitcoin in existence and what Bitcoin addresses are authorized to spend them. If a Bitcoin address does not have the authority to spend according to the blockchain, the transaction does not take place. The blockchain is constantly being audited by independent users taking part in an activity called "mining". The combined power of this auditing network has ten times the hashing power of the most powerful supercompter on earth.

The code on which Bitcoins run is open source and can be inspected by anyone. Many have verified that there are no back-doors for malicious entities or governments to exploit.

But since you know how to manipulate Bitcoins, share your proof of concept with the rest of us so that we can get rich and donate that money to Ron Paul or something else useful.

Well I will look more into

Well I will look more into this "blockchain" and "mining" aspect you speak of. I'm not claiming to know how to manipulate it, I'm talking more about from the originator or creator of bitcoin, seems like the first step is putting a ton of faith in them, or him/her.

Beep beep boop beep... I am a Paulbot... prepare for liberty and prosperity!

Inspiration

Thank you for at least pledging to look more into Bitcoin. May it be an inspiration to the rest who simply spew FUD about that which they do not understand.

I can't pretend to know what was going on in the minds of those who initially put faith in the Bitcoin network, but I did because I fully believe it will reign in, if not end the state completely.

LOL.

He says, "You have something from nothing and soon you will have nothing from something. I will stick with something for something."

He says this on the INTERNET. On his YOUTUBE CHANNEL.

If he truly believes that Bitcoin is "nothing", then why is he wasting his time on the nothingness that is the internet??? He should stop wasting his time playing in nothingness, and start burning those talks of his onto DVD so that he can mail them to his listeners.

Digital FRN's

My opinion of the Bitcoin is that it is a digital FRN, even banks recognize it as a form of "Money",but not in real competition of the FRN's. Neither have anything backing it, other then a promise that is empty. May as well agree with Helicopter Ben when he stated that Gold wasn't money. http://youtu.be/6Pnrn8UJl2A Also, with bitcoin, it's just another step into doing away with physical money (Gold and Silver), and use strictly digital credits, which will be controlled by the Govt. Is that what you want?

"Never be afraid to raise your voice for honesty and truth and compassion against injustice and lying and greed. If people all over the world...would do this, it would change the earth. "
— William Faulkner
twitter.com/@Battleforce3327

Please do your research.

Please do your research or do not comment on this subject.

Bitcoin cannot be controled. There is no back-door to the software. It is open source. It can be reviewed by anyone. It cannot be maliciously changed.

Bitcoins cannot be created in any way other than originally programmed. They will never inflate beyond 21M units. They cannot be falsified or hacked.

Bitcoin transactions cannot be stopped by any bank or any government or any entitiy, period. Bitcoins do not need to be stored in a safe and protected by guns. Bitcoin cannot be siezed and thus cannot be taxed.

Do any of these properties resemble FRNs in the slightest?

Again. Do your research or do not comment.

Time Will Tell

And when it happens, who will pay the price?

"Never be afraid to raise your voice for honesty and truth and compassion against injustice and lying and greed. If people all over the world...would do this, it would change the earth. "
— William Faulkner
twitter.com/@Battleforce3327

Who will pay?

Probably those who are clutching their guns, trying to protect their safes from the tanks that are rolling through their living rooms, courtesy of the power-hungry, foaming-at-the-mouth sociopathic government.

I will never need a weapon to protect my purchasing power.

You won't Have any

purchasing power when the net is shut down. You'll have to get in line with everyone else and use the system that they approve of, and that is a digital credit system. More than likely the RFID, then what? That's right, the Government isn't going to take away the internet, and your bitcoins will be safe in cyberspace.
Don't put your complete trust into a system that can be controlled by the government.

"Never be afraid to raise your voice for honesty and truth and compassion against injustice and lying and greed. If people all over the world...would do this, it would change the earth. "
— William Faulkner
twitter.com/@Battleforce3327

I reject your vision of the future.

The difference is that opting out of FRNs can have an effect TODAY and stop what you are suggesting will happen tomorrow. We can reign in government TODAY. We can avoid collapses and shtf scenarios by saying TODAY that we've had ENOUGH of the monopoly money bullshit. We can choose that future TODAY.

Your future is reactive, dystopic, RFID, 1984 bullshit.

I choose a different future.

And by using putting my purchasing power into a system that is off limits to the force of government, that I can use to buy what I want from whom I want TODAY. Easily. Anonymously. In the comfort of my own home.

With bitcoins, I am taking a stand TODAY.

To understand why PMs will fail to undermine fiat, please read this: http://themisescircle.org/blog/2013/02/19/end-the-fed-hoard-...

I reject your vision

of your "Future" as it is unrealistic. Until this revolution is over and We The People are in full control of our government again, I will not put faith in a system that can be and is controlled by the current system. Yes, the power grid is part of that, and everything associated with it, even Bitcoins, which would be useless in any manner w/o power. If you can not tell, there is a major push by our so called "Representatives" to take control of the internet, and will accomplish it, one way or another, which means that the Electronic "Currency" you put your trust in, will be controlled or eliminated by them.
I would prefer a physical currency, such as Au and Ag, which can be easily used, or hid, for trade when this economy and dollar collapses, which it will at this current level of spending and FRN printing. When the collapse happens Do you think that you can afford to pay for the electricity that it takes to access your bitcoin account, or would you use that wheel barrel full of FRN's to buy a loaf of bread? I will continue to "Stack Silver" until this current system is returned to We The People, and Au and Ag is returned as the means of Coinage, as the Constitution states it should be.
So, continue to have faith in the same type system that is based on electronic digits, backed by nothing.

"Never be afraid to raise your voice for honesty and truth and compassion against injustice and lying and greed. If people all over the world...would do this, it would change the earth. "
— William Faulkner
twitter.com/@Battleforce3327

Bitcoins =/= the Internet

Apparently you haven't been paying attention to China. "The Great Firewall" as they call it is a joke, bypassed every second of every day, by those who wish to access the "outside world". There are also utilities like Tor, which obfuscates your browsing by encoding and scattering your traffic through a peer network. Tor, like Bitcoin, cannot be snooped or intercepted by a malicious entity or government.

Even further, Bitcoins do not explicitly require "the Internet" - just a TCP/IP-capable device. Computer, cell phone, tablet, modem. There are billions of these devices, and they only need the ability to contact each other, not the internet. Certainly "the Internet" makes Bitcoin easier to use, but is not a requirement.

The only way to stop Bitcoin is to cause a massive (read: coast-to-coast) sustained (read: weeks) power-outage. I simply do not believe that will happen.

If you do, Bitcoin is not for you. But for the sake of the rest of us, when you argue about why you don't believe in Bitcoin, please lead with "There will be a massive, sustained power-outage", and we'll know to ignore you, because there's just no convincing you otherwise.

currency is just

a way of transmitting information. The value of anything arises out of the transaction, and has nothing to do with the material.

If everyone refused to accept transactions with gold, then gold would not be money.

The utility of gold as currency comes from the difficulty in manipulating the value over time. I don't know enough about how bitcoin works to say how hard or easy it would be for some group to manipulate its value to their advantage, but, if it is as difficult as silver and gold, then it is as good a currency. It is clearly a much more convenient currency.

What are you talking about?

What are you talking about? He's talking about money. Unless he is claiming that the internet is literally money, I don't see your point.

Please come join my forum if you're not a trendy and agree with my points of view.

My point is

My point is that if he considers Bitcoin to be "nothing", then he must also consider the internet to be "nothing". Bitcoin, like the internet, is "only" a string of bits and bytes, but that certainly doesn't make it "nothing".

The internet has immense utility.

So does Bitcoin. Its utility alone gives it value.

That's not a point. You're

That's not a point. You're comparing something people claim is money to a physical network of computers providing information that no one claims is money.

He says a bitcoin is nothing because they can't be physically held. They aren't even backed by anything. The supply can be inflated. It's been pretty much only used by computer nerds.

The internet is not ones and zeroes, it's a physical network of computers.

Please come join my forum if you're not a trendy and agree with my points of view.

You really don't know what Bitcoin is

You said that the internet is a physical network of computers, (implying that's what gives it value)?

Bitcoin is also a physical network of computers. In fact, the bitcoin network has more hashing power than any other super computer in existence... BY A FACTOR OF 10X!

And to your argument that "Bitcoin isn't money," there are a number of physical establishments (restaurants, what-have-you) that accept Bitcoin, as well as a growing number of online presences (including HUGE names like Wordpress and Reddit) which now accept Bitcoin. Do these establishments believe Bitcoin isn't money?

Ask any of the users of Silk Road (who freely and fearlessly buy guns and drugs with Bitcoin - the only tender the site accepts, mind you) whether they agree with your statement... that Bitcoin is not money.

If you believe Bitcoin isn't money, then, perhaps, Bitcoin just isn't money to YOU. But day by day, more and more of the world is disagreeing with you.

What happens if those

What happens if those establishments lose power or their internet connection? No, I'm not talking about some global disaster. Shit happens everywhere. It's life. They probably shut down because they also likely don't know how to make change without a register showing the amount. Your precious bitcoins rely on electricity and and internet connection to even use.

Please come join my forum if you're not a trendy and agree with my points of view.

Generators, batteries....

If your local ISP drops service, which happens often enough at my house, I switch to data on my cell phone. I've never experienced a time when I was out both simultaneously.

I could just as easily ask, "What if you're out of cash, the bank is closed and the ATM is out of power?"

Basically my point is that IT WOULD TAKE a global disaster to cripple the usability of Bitcoin.

As for your question, if my favorite Bitcoin-accepting restaurant lost power, they wouldn't even be able to make the falafel I planned on buying, so...

Also, I didn't notice any retort to my comment above. Does that mean you accept that Bitcoin is money? ...albeit with the risk that someday, somewhere I might be out of power and have to resort to using Caesar's coins?

My point is that it's narrow.

My point is that it's narrow. It's money for a tiny minority of people. People need electricity and internet to use it. Not everyone wants to be assimilated into the global matrix just to purchase things. There was also some asshat commenting on that video who thinks it is going to take down the global banks. Restaurants mostly use natural gas for their grills, by the way.

Please come join my forum if you're not a trendy and agree with my points of view.

Natural Gas

Do their refrigerators use natural gas too? Jussayin'.

Bitcoin will never be the solution for everyone. Like, I could never see the Amish using it. But for the "tiny minority" of people who own TCP/IP-capable devices (read: cell phones, tablets, & computers) and live in countries with a government-controled central banking systems, Bitcoin offers freedom and utility.

What did people do before

What did people do before refrigerators? Store food underground. I fail to see how a fridge not working means your food can't be cooked. And yes, a fridge could run on natural gas. They could even be hand cranked. Once a fridge is cold the compressor barely ever needs to run.

Metals will be used as money between the collapse and the global RFID chip 666 money.

Please come join my forum if you're not a trendy and agree with my points of view.

dystopia

I don't even recognize this conversation anymore. You started by asking about a simple power outage and now you're talking about burying food and cranking fridges?

If you believe we'll all be cranking fridges and burying food, then Bitcoin is not for you. I don't share belief in your dystopian vision of the future.

You're twisting my words. My

You're twisting my words. My whole point is that we can live without electricity. Your point seems to be that with a power outage people are helpless and your bitcoins won't buy anything because nobody will be producing anything without power. I've seen power go out plenty, and up until a few years ago, they could even take credit cards without electricity. Some places likely still even use credit card imprinting machines to take unswipeable cards. People haven't demanded these electronic means of payment, they just simply don't reject them when things are slowly mutated towards dystopia. Those of us who hoard real money (metal coins) will be prepared in a disaster and the shelves at the stores will be full because most everyone will only have their funny money and plastic.

Please come join my forum if you're not a trendy and agree with my points of view.

Common misconception.

No Bitcoiner is AGAINST owning PMs in the case of disaster. We just think that disaster of that magnitude is unlikely and/or far off, and in the meantime, Bitcoin allows us to transact with whomever we want, globally, without being snooped on by gov't and without having to mail bricks of metal across the planet.