9 votes

I Want to Debate a "Liberal" Who Is Willing To Change Their Mind

Are you a democrat, liberal, socialist, communist, marxist or otherwise interested in exerting SOME type of control over me or others?

Are you sure of your convictions? Is it your intent to make the world TRULY a better place? Are you CAPABLE of absorbing new information and able to change your MIND and BELIEFS accordingly?

Those who have built themselves their own prison to stay in (a rigid belief system) need not apply...

Solutions are arrived at by identifying and analyzing the problems. If we can't be honest about the problems then you will not be seeing any solutions materialize. Everything will continue to go downhill and our prosperity will evaporate in this country... what's left of it anyway.

I myself am just one bad happening away from being back on the street with whatever I can carry... the FACT is this "government" has become downright PREDATORY and if you're not willing to consider that FACT then really is there anything that we can logically or rationally discuss?

...and it's very anoying how "they" can change the meanings of our words. Isn't a "liberal" - by a common sense definition - someone who likes "liberty?" No... of course not. Somehow they have managed to change the meaning of this word to "someone who wants to take your liberty away."

They divide us by messing with our language. The are conquering us by making it virtually impossible for us to communicate... organize... or even agree on the simplest point. If you can at least temporarily trust that I have everyone's best interests in mind... and the same goes for me regarding you... that is a place to start.

We need to be prepared to slow down these soundbites and actually start looking up these words and trying to figure out exactly what it is that we have been trained to PARROT by the "powers that be" - who are only in power because most people can't even figure out that there actually is some sinister deviant group of international financiers that are attempting to take over the planet and are right now preparing the people for forced subjugation on a massive scale.

Are you able to change your mind? Are you able to admit that maybe you didn't have all the information at your disposal before coming to a conclusion about whatever it is you choose to believe at this time? At the risk of using some "violent communication" here...

ARE YOU ABLE TO ADMIT IT WHEN YOU FIND OUT YOU WERE WRONG?

If we can't start there... then we are doomed as a species... because as everyone knows - "nobody is perfect." From simple logic, if you're not willing to admit that you're not perfect then you're obviously not capable of having a rational, intelligent and logical discussion about anything right? You are more intent on establishing your boundaries and building up the different facets of the fantasy world that you live in. Obviously... isn't that LOGICAL to presume?

I'm not conservative. I'm not a liberal. I don't know what "class" some "political pundit" would put me in. If I say "I want government to just leave me alone" does that make me a "conservative" or a "liberal?" The labels just boggle the mind...

I whole-hardheartedly recommend becoming a DP member and supporting Michael - there aren't many "mom & pop shops" left, especially in media. If we don't support the few that remain who are doing the right things they will evaporate along with what's left of our rights.

I'm living proof that you can speak you mind here and that's difficult to find now anywhere on the internet unless you have your own independent blog. Kudos to Michael who consistently amazes me every time I come back to DP and click "login" and still have the ability to do so :-P

If you're up for a AUDIO debate feel free to get in touch. You can email me @yahoo dot com if you're not already a Daily Paul member.

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I can 'wargame' an argument

If you're interested I have a pro-socialist argument that I can give you for which I have been trying to develop a counter argument for a few years. I wouldnt mind hearing someone argue against it.

Cyril's picture

Interesting. What is that one?

Interesting. What is that one?

Must be new, because Bastiat had debunked all socialist arguments, still in ridiculous and outrageous use today, well ahead of his time, and with little efforts.

I'm genuinely interested to hear more!

"Cyril" pronounced "see real". I code stuff.

http://Laissez-Faire.Me/Liberty

"To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." -- Confucius

I am a patriot

and I love my country. I ain't no democrat. I ain't no republican. I ain't no socialist. I ain't no communist. I ain't no imperialist. I ain't no capitalist. I only know one party and it's name is FREEDOM.

And the river opens for the righteous.

Lyrics to a song I heard...

beephree

Not an easy task.

You have two tools - shame him using morality or use logic.

Since socialists use the same morality as religious folks (sacrifice of an individual for universal neighbor and common good), the first tool is out. Same with the second tool - logic does not go well among those dogmatic people who rely on miracles, feelings, and blind beliefs.

Cyril's picture

I believe this is worth a watch:

I believe this is worth a watch:

The Difference Between Liberal and Conservative

http://www.youtu.be/5KHdhrNhh88

... and then to ponder about it.

Here's a useful tip I learned and I'd have been glad to be able to use earlier with our "liberal friends" - the 3 questions that will DESTROY most of the arguments from the left (for new policies / regulations / laws):

1. "... compared TO WHAT ?"

2. "... at WHAT COST ?"

3. "... what HARD EVIDENCES do you have ?"

Also posted here.

'HTH,

"Cyril" pronounced "see real". I code stuff.

http://Laissez-Faire.Me/Liberty

"To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." -- Confucius

Stop Blaming Government.

No one is holding you back.
No one is holding you down.

Figure out what you love doing, then figure out how to make that your living.

The problem with the OVER INDULGENCE of complaints on this site, and the HYPER FEAR MONGERING on the part of Alex Jones is that people start to believe that someone is really holding them down.

You say you're "one bad happening away" as though life is happening TO you. Maybe you learned it from your parents or some other poor influence - but the mindset has to go. You can be, do, or have anything you want. Dream your dream and then god damn it - GO AFTER IT!

I hear Alex Jones and think: Fuck - the world is about to End! And then I listen to the Joe Rogan podcast and hear him talking to people who don't have time for political bullshit - they're too busy chasing their dreams and passions. It puts everything into perspective.

Find your passion and go fuckin' get it.
I'd love to help.

Write your next article about "ok - this is what I want to do and this is my plan so far - anyone want to weigh in?" and I will be there giving you or anyone else every MONEY idea I have.

You can look at life from the "one happening away from the poor house" mentality or you can see it a different way as "one happening away from OWNING the house of your dreams." It's your call. Life is what YOU MAKE IT.

Go make it.

That's why this site is dying - it's too depressing and it is NOT AN ACCURATE PICTURE OF REALITY!!! (i'm not saying i'm perfect by the way. I've got plenty of shit to work out - but i know not to blame anyone - definitely not government. Einstein didn't need the german government to follow his passions. Neither did Picasso. Nor do you. Nor do i. In the end: Fuck Government. I gotta Live my LIFE.)

Ron Paul is smiling.
Are you?

Only thing I can say in response to this is...

you are making wild assumptions and also have not come far enough down the rabbit hole to realize the FACT that there definitely is a group of international financiers holding the rest of us down.

Sorry

but I think the first step is to FIND a liberal who's willing to change their mind.

New Hampshire and Ecuador.

Cyril's picture

Slow learning sponges

They are slow learners.

Another useful image is they are like sponges - soaking with propaganda.

You need a hand to squeeze the latter out.

That hand is usually called "Tyranny" - when it's SHTF times.

Then, they change their mind... right before being slaughtered.

Yuri Bezmenov was kind enough to describe the entire process for us, decades ago:

http://www.youtu.be/RS8LA-5fmrs

'HTH,

"Cyril" pronounced "see real". I code stuff.

http://Laissez-Faire.Me/Liberty

"To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." -- Confucius

I consider myself a pretty quick learner...

I used to be liberal, anti-gun, pro-abortion etc... Let's be careful about the collectivist thinking that somehow "all liberals are slow learners."

Cyril's picture

Well, all the liberals I have met so far, anyway.

Well, all the liberals I have met so far, anyway. Except one or two out of about a dozen...

But yes, Your Mileage May Vary. Maybe I was just unlucky(?)

"Cyril" pronounced "see real". I code stuff.

http://Laissez-Faire.Me/Liberty

"To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." -- Confucius

Put yourself on the same level as them

Hate to criticize, but this entire post comes across as "smarter-than-thou" and know-it-all and "*I* don't have to change my mind on anything."

Really, what self-respecting person would debate you on those terms? "Yes, I'll be happy to be humble and be willing to change my mind, knowing beforehand that you won't listen to me and my concerns, nor give me any credit for knowing anything that you don't know."

At best, you'd only invite someone who is just as stubborn as you come across, someone who can prove to you that NOTHING you say can change their mind on anything.

Invite to a fair debate, in which it's agreed that both sides refrain from name-calling and demonizing the other. Agree to treat each other as human beings who deserve respect. Be humble yourself, be teachable yourself. Only then can you reach others.

"Moderation in temper is always a virtue; but moderation in principle is always a vice." -- Thomas Paine

I don't mind the critisizm

As far as me changing my mind... it's not that hard to do. As far as trying to get me to UNLEARN some stuff so that I can be a "liberal" again I don't see that happening.

I see "liberals" as just people who don't have all the facts. I'm perhaps one of the most teachable people you will ever meet. Do I demonstrate an air of confidence in my knowledge? Yes... but that's because I am VERY teachable and have LEARNED much.

Read This

I've never heard it stated so eloquently. Cuts right to the chase:

http://www.dailypaul.com/275112/mark-levin-audio-clip-us-gov...

Apples vs. Oranges. How're they going to hear us when we're broadcasting in FM and all they have are AM radios?

Holy cow that is great.

10/10.

I'm glad you linked to that again because I missed it.

I don't get why you people hate the government

I guess you'd rather go back to the 1800's with your free markets and child labor. The purpose of government is create a better society, because without government everyone would be fighting all the time and there would be no roads or bridges or education unless you were a millionaire. Those who earn the most have a responsibility to give back to the community that helped them get to where they are, and that is one of the other functions of government. If you want to make the world a better place, you need a capable central government that is accountable to voters and has the power to make the world more socially just. Without the government, there would be no social safety me either.

Tu ne cede malis sed contra audentior ito

why you trolling, man?

You are trolling, right? What with the Mises quote in your signature and all.

Anyways, don't drag out that child labor fallacy again. You know that the Fair Labors Standards Act, outlawing child labor, wasn't passed till 1938, and then only to limit labor competition? And only after child labor stopped being a societal issue?
Read this:
http://mises.org/daily/2858

As a general rule, government social reform is always playing catch-up with societal reform, and then takes the credit. The social reform law is passed after it is no longer needed, because society has evolved. But the history books are written so that the government appears as the savior that made the change possible.

“Although it was the middle of winter, I finally realized that, within me, summer was inextinguishable.” — Albert Camus

I was wondering how long it would take

for someone to notice my signature haha. I thought this was an interesting thread, but it was quickly becoming boring because everyone was on the same side. I wanted to see if everyone knows their side as well as they think they do when faced with a barrage of progressive fallacies. I think arguments are one of the best teaching tools out there, at least in my case.

Tom Woods gives a great talk about child labor, and how it disappeared due to underlying increases in the productivity of workers, not legislation. He even gave an example of somewhere where they tried to legislate it away before the economic groundwork was there, and it jut resulted in children starving to death or entering prostitution, because in many cases these children represented 1/4 of the family's income, which is quite substantial when you're living meal to meal.

You make a good point about how government tends to jump on the bandwagon of these things and then take credit for starting the whole movement. This also conveniently ignores all the other times when the government was using force to maintain things like slavery and Jim Crow laws.

Tu ne cede malis sed contra audentior ito

But you don't really care about the things you claim to

You see social problems and you advocate certain solutions. The problem is, the solutions you advocate do not solve the problems you claim to want to solve. In fact, the problems only get worse.

- Health care costs have gone UP (dramatically) ever since government become involved (and continues to spiral higher as government becomes more involved)

- Education gets WORSE as government gets more and more involved

- Poverty levels have NOT CHANGED even though government has thrown trillions of dollars at it over the years

- People on your side claim that the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer -- even after DECADES of income redistribution

- Other societies that have gone down the road even further show that your solutions do not work, and lead only to misery for the masses: bread lines and starvation in the USSR as the government takes full control of food; empty store shelves and looting as places like Argentina and Venezuela institute price controls on food; bullets in the back to stop people from leaving when they take your advice to "go somewhere else" (Cuba, USSR, North Korea).

So, the things you CLAIM to want, such as better education, elimination of poverty, affordable health care for everyone, and all the rest are things YOU DO NOT CARE ABOUT AT ALL.

If you actually DID care about these things, you would stop and reflect about how your ideas are actually leading to misery for the people you PRETEND to want to help.

You don't get any brownie points around here for pretending things that just are not so. Your brand of morality is a false one, and we can see right through your ideas.

Can you?

I don't get why you people love the government

I guess you like what you see today with your wars, torture, indefinite detention, and execution without a jury. A government powerful enough to grant you a thing is powerfull enough to take it away. As history has already revealed, will take it away, no matter how good the intention was going in. That is because 'power corrupts,' and the same human error that infeebles your free market of child labor, also infeebles every institution, especially government (where there exists child pornography rings, for example.) People don't magically become enlightened just because they are in the public sector, you know. It seems obvious that you wouldnt trust a ceo to be answerable morally to their board members, would you? So why, then, would you think a councilmember would be socially just?why do you people put government employees on a pedestal? Do you imagine changing their title will make them answerable to the people? The fact remains that the best government is the smallest government, and there is no smaller government than self-government. That is to say, there is no better decision-maker for humanity than you for yourself.

Like Ghandi said, become the change you want to see. If it is safety net you want, then become the safety net. If you figuratively teach yourself to fish, then you become your own safety net. and your children might even be blessed knowing they won't have to demand safety nets from others, either, since the can create their own out of thin air just like pops.

Ill admit our government isn't perfect

(See: the Republican Party) but the main difference is that our legislators are accountable to voters, while a CEO only cares about profits.

Not everyone can 'become their own safety net'. There are countless people who can't afford basic human dignities such as housing, healthcare, and education, while many people have far more than they could ever need. It is the responsibility of government to correct these injustices, and society is better for it. After all, how are business supposed to earn profits and grow if their customers are poor and are unable to buy back the product they produce?

Tu ne cede malis sed contra audentior ito

NEWSFLASHAMUNDO!

our legislators are accountable to voters, while a CEO only cares about profits.

BARACK HUSSEIN OBAMA is the CEO of the UNITED STATES federal DUMMY corporation. It's a CORPORATION... it's a CORPORATION!!! It's not a GOD DAMN GOVERNMENT - STOP CALLING IT A GOVERNMENT - IT'S NOT A GOVERNMENT....

In THIS country... WE THE PEOPLE ARE THE GOVERNMENT!!!!

WHAT IS IT GOING TO TAKE TILL PEOPLE GET THIS THRU THEIR HEADS? WE DO NOT HAVE A GOVERNMENT - WE ARE WITHOUT A GOVERNMENT because what are we the people doing right now by and large? They are complaining about some corporation that they think is the GOVERNMENT of the United States of America when it most definitely IS NOT. It is a foreign owned corporation "DBA" doing business as "the government." It is an OCCUPYING FORCE and you are committing treason simply by registering to vote your share of the corporation at "shareholder meetings" which you think are public elections!

deacon's picture

if your words fall on deaf ears here

how much luck do you think you will have
trying to get others who aren't so awake to hear you?
deacon

If we deny truth before your very eyes,then the rest of what we have to say,is of little consequence

Accountable to voters?

Election fraud happens.

Too many of the problems you list as reasons why people can't become their own safety net, they come from too much government involvement. For example, if you get this great marketing idea, you have to pay thousands of dollars to get permission to exercise your idea (such as wanting to provide a taxi service, or sell lemonade). Corporatism combining with the government is nothing but corruption, as the corporations pay government officials to pass legislation that helps them and crushes competition. (My favorite petty example is about a company from a northern state convincing the federal government to pass a law concerning ice wine: only grapes picked while frozen outside on the vine by the weather could be labeled as ice wine. This was to prevent southern companies from competing by using freezers to freeze the grapes.)

The government building roads and providing a postal service is listed in the Constitution. A limited government would provide services that are equally accessible to everyone, provided that these services do not place a burden on the taxpayers. It oversteps its boundaries when it tries to legislate lifestyles, such as determining exactly what kind of education is acceptable (forcing truancy and punishing parents for having different ideas of how to best prepare their children for adulthood), exactly what qualifies as "healthcare" ("only doctors in hospitals being paid by third parties count!"), and so on. Thanks to both the crony capitalism and the inherent limited wisdom and knowledge of our representatives, nearly everything the federal touches becomes more expensive and less competent.

The government should enforce contracts. It should punish criminals. It should provide at least basic protection from foreign hostilities. Invading dozens of foreign lands is not basic protection from invasion ourselves. Throwing non-violent drug users into jail for thirty years does not protect us from rapists, thieves and murderers. Bailing out banks who have misused and abused the funds entrusted to their care is not guarding contracts (neither is a company refusing to buy back a product a customer was unhappy with when the company itself initially said it'd buy it back).

I am not anti-government. There needs to be a limited government to protect our civil liberties and let us live our lives. Right now, we do not have that ideal. We have a monster that controls everything. We would not have so many impoverished if the government didn't have both too much power and too much money. There is too much corruption.

"Moderation in temper is always a virtue; but moderation in principle is always a vice." -- Thomas Paine

Corporate profits vs profitable politicians

There is no greater myth in politics than the idea that legislators are somehow any less driven by money than CEO's.

Again with your pedistal. Do you honestly believe people become morally superior once they get in office?

Do you suppose $$ suddenly becomes less interesting to the man who is elected office over the CEO who runs a business?

Those that don't have a safety net still own the decision to do something about their situation. Ask friends for help, ask family for help, church,neighbors, raise money, pan handle, going into debt is an option, face the pain, face certain death. Whatever it is, we are all always responsible for our own lives which is scary if you have no faith in yourself or your neighbors (but you might be surprised how charitable people are when there isn't a gun pointing at their head.)

Thank you. The pedestal is an eternal circular argument

I should just copy and bookmark your two comments so I don't have to keep typing out an original response in every freaking debate with a progressive.

"people are bad so we need a government of people are bad so we need a government with people are bad so we need a government of people..."

where does the government get

where does the government get the money?

Taxes or borrowing

That's the price you pay for living in a civilized society. If you didn't pay those taxes, you'd have a society run by rich businessmen full of dirty air and dirty water and poor people without the most basic of rights, such as healthcare and housing. If you don't like it, live somewhere else.

Tu ne cede malis sed contra audentior ito

so what you are saying is

so what you are saying is that i have to pay for the privelege of living? is there a reason why politicians spend millions of dollars provided by the rich businessmen to run for a government position that only pays an average income of a business owner? are these the rights you are talking about: http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=arc_ayn_rand...? so if i disagree with someone taking my property for the good of a different individual then i should be banished, what if they come at night into my house without my permission and take my stuff?

You pay for the privilege of living in a civilized society

And paying taxes isn't like being robbed. That money pays for healthcare and infrastructure and school loans and national defense and things that everyone benefits from. If everyone could just opt out whenever they felt like it, the system would fall apart and the poor would suffer the most.

As for politicians spending money to get elected, there are definitely some bad apples out there who go into it for the wrong reasons. But there are also people like president Obama who have to spend a lot of money just to be able to compete.

Tu ne cede malis sed contra audentior ito