7 votes

Build up your personal debt before the financial collapse?

Everyone is obviously talking about the imminent financial collapse. With the same token, many have been discussing the fact that due to hyper-inflation personal debt and credit rating will be reduced to the point of near non-existence or erased entirely.

It occurred to me...why not use this opportunity to raise my own personal debt now and buy things I'd need after the collapse? Things I don't have in savings to buy. Gold, silver, bullets, guns, food-stocks, water-barrels, gasoline-tanks, etc, etc.

If anyone can poke holes in this theory, I'd welcome it because as of right now this seems like a fantastic idea.

Sure, it's not an ethical choice, but it's a survivalist choice.

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Correct me if I am wrong...

But the way I understand it is that banks can create even more money on top of what the federal reserve bank counterfeits. From what I have read, banks can loan out 9 times as much as is deposited by the fed. Possibly smaller banks have their turn with the Clinton big lend laws and multiply it again, not sure how it all works.

Another thing I was led to understand is that the money the banks conterfeit can only be created for "loans". Credit cards are a means of loaning. No wonder there are so many credit card offers when the banks can simply create 90% of the money they loan out of nowhere and collect real labor or property plus interest on it...

Yes, is a mess. A complete and utter mess destined for disaster. Greed and corruption have plagued to a point of no return.

Wouldn't doing most of a person's spending on credit cards if you have them be a way to speed the process along and bring their whole charade to a close? Even if you pay them off right away to avoid interest, it did create more money.

You understand it just fine!

You understand it just fine! You have a better grasp then 90% of the people here!

-----
End The Fat
70 pounds lost and counting! Get in shape for the revolution!

Get Prepared!

Cyril's picture

Better late than never

Well, it's in fact quite well documented by now, in plain view, for all to see.

Although, granted, not quite for so many to be as outraged as we are, sadly... but anyway, it's accessible thru "popular" sources - maybe I should have shared this with the OP earlier... bah, better late than never:

Fractional reserve banking and the money creation process

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional_reserve_banking#Mone...

OP: notice the two distinct (and paired) functions of the commercial banks with the central banks in what is otherwise nothing but a gigantic Ponzi scheme.

'HTH,

"Cyril" pronounced "see real". I code stuff.

http://Laissez-Faire.Me/Liberty

"To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." -- Confucius

If you fight fire with fire

You end up with what you do not want. Debt is immoral and a form of slavery. I say no. Walk your walk and talk your talk, take the high road. Be good. Do to others what you wish done to yourself, even if they do you wrong.

sovereign

Well then you are immoral

Well then you are immoral because you use debt instruments called Federal Reserve Notes as if they are money. Unless you use only gold and silver or hard currency or barter then you are supporting debt because the entire system is debt THERE IS NO MONEY in the system!

So if you think you really believe your religious ideology it makes you just as immoral as anyone who gets defrauded into a fake loan. Your not being moral by supporting fraud or paying its extortion fees. So you might want to rethink that high horse you are riding.

-----
End The Fat
70 pounds lost and counting! Get in shape for the revolution!

Get Prepared!

How do you know what I use or dont use.

You can only testify as to what you know. So when you make a bold acusation that I am Immoral it makes you look pretty sorry.

sovereign

Gambling is gambling.

Getting into debt for a college education is just betting unearned yet dollars on being able to get a job that pays enough to cover the student loans.

It's a gamble. Anyone that calls it an 'investment' is deluding themselves.

Don't feed the pandas. Ever.

Gambling is gambling

Investments are not gambling but investments. USURY is neither gambeling nor investing. Usury is the bane of humanity. Compounding debt is the purest form of evil and the ultimate evil usury type.

If you dont understand and apparently not only you but your buddy that is responding as well you need to do a earnest search about usury. It was banned from humanity for over a thousand years. But now we have entire generations talking about usury as if its an investment or a gamble. I shake my head what harm will come to the generations to come if so many dont get it now.

sovereign

Even gold can be a gamble...

Sure, buy and hold has worked out pretty well for those who were able to do so. But what if a medical emergency creeps up on you and you're forced to sell some gold RIGHT NOW and end up taking a loss on it?

So yes, a fine investment indeed but also - at some possibly miniscule level - still a gamble.

Don't feed the pandas. Ever.

we quible over word meanings.

If you have gold as a reserve, and somthing happens that you need to spend it, I call it spent. You however call it somthing else. What an investment?

If your forced to sell gold because the gold is not acceptable in the transaction that caused you to need it in this unknown emergency your still spending it but converting it to the usfull acceptable curency. I still do not see this as an example of an investment.

I talk about usury with a capital U.

sovereign

Well yes but

Every investment is a gamble

I guess I'm not alone

Exactly. A 401k is a gamble. Gold is a gamble.

A Roth IRA is a gamble. Farmland is a gamble. A nice pair of shoes is a gamble. Life is a gamble.

Betting on financial collapse seems like a sure thing, but a good gambler would know to hedge their bets against something devastating happening - like maybe 'the economy' rebounding, the dollar strengthening, banks becoming honest...

A long-shot I know but you gotta do your due-diligence.

:)

Don't feed the pandas. Ever.

Not quite accurate...

RP4pres,
The people that you bought the house from already got paid. It is the bank that created the money to loan to you that you owe. This issue is not about morality. It is about investing. Building debt and purchasing hard assets because you think that you will be able to pay it back with devalued currency is no more immoral than buying an ounce of gold expecting that you will be able to avoid the inflation tax associated with the devaluing currency. If you did not buy the gold, the person selling it would be better off for not having sold it. Is that your fault? I would never, however put yourslf in a position where you are struggling to pay current debt payments waiting for the currency to devalue and I do believe in meeting the obligations that I have promissed to meet.

I guess I'm not alone

My question is this:

why do THEY want to forcibly cause a collapse that will cause many to, well, be homeless? Doesn't this country depend on infratruscture? How can a country run efficienltly if the people can't even survive?

I don't understand the plan at all.

The law cannot make a wicked person virtuous…God’s grace alone can accomplish such a thing.
Ron Paul - The Revolution

Setting a good example is a far better way to spread ideals than through force of arms. Ron Paul

The government does not want

The government does not want a collapse. They want to create some inflation to gradually shrink the debt. They think they can print just the right amount of money to create inflation without it going out of control, kind of like controlling a nuclear reaction at a nuclear power plant. The problem is, that keeping inflation under control is much more difficult that controlling a nuclear reaction but like a nuclear reaction, once things get out of control there is a complete meltdown.

The government is a taken over sold out puppet shill.

Owned by those who invested money into rigging the election. The Rothschild central bank mafia that creates unlimited money out of thin air digitizing it out of thin air at no cost and certianly not accountable to the govenrmenet or the people of the USA.

So the government wants only to follow bankgangster orders.

So you think this is a out of control event. HAHAHAHH

Do your research, this is the 3rd cycle of this crime.

Unbelieveable that you think this is a out of control event. UNflipping believeable.

sovereign

The heads of corporations and big politicians

Will not suffer from the financial collapse. They have friends in high places and the money in reserves in other currencies to sit comfortably. This financial collapse will harm the average American citizen and that's it.

If you have an understanding of the Federal Reserve and you've done research on the entities who have interests in central banking systems around the world you'd understand why financial collapses are something they strive for. When we collapse, the rich have a monopoly on ANYTHING and EVERYTHING they want. We, the people, become forever indebted to them.

It is amazingly how woefully

It is amazing how woefully ignorant people are and surprisingly especially Ron Paulers on how the credit based monetary system works.

Banks and credit card companies are not loaning anyone a dime it is all an illusion and fraud. Your signature creates the money on the spot while they pretend to have loaned you their assets. Ron Paul does not call it MONEY FROM NOTHING for the hell of it. Hes been trying to teach you folks for years now but many still don't get it it seems. This is the major way they create money in this sick system. Printing FRN's is just the petty cash of the system now days.

Yet people come on here and call folks names for not paying these phony debts back created from thin air on the spot based on your signature on the note. These phony debts are the root of all our economic problems they are responsible for blowing the bubble up into the stratosphere.

And now everyone is mesmerized right back into the same ole BS. Folks they deflated the real estate bubble in 2008 but they have been slowly re inflating it ever since. However necessities are generally increasing as this inflationary money from nothing scheme continue to debase the value of the phony currency... That is why Ron Paul calls it an Inflationary Depression...

Oh why do I bother...Sigh!

-----
End The Fat
70 pounds lost and counting! Get in shape for the revolution!

Get Prepared!

Hawk

I understand the way the financial system works. This was a moral dilemma, not an intellectual one.

If I went through with this plan I'd end up harming the people who I purchased the items from via loans. But in all honesty, if I don't, it's highly likely someone else will. And no one is going to buy gold with gold, obviously, so they'll get screwed one way or another because the currency they'll be receiving is FRNs which I'm concerned will crash.

And to be quite honest, I'm sad this thread has gotten so much attention. I was looking for personal advice on the validity of this plan, nothing more.

Cyril's picture

Also in support of hawkiye's comment below

Also in support of hawkiye's comment below, the video linked from there is a must-watch, I think (if not done yet):

Bank Fraud in 10 Minutes

http://www.dailypaul.com/275696/bank-fraud-in-ten-minutes

"Cyril" pronounced "see real". I code stuff.

http://Laissez-Faire.Me/Liberty

"To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." -- Confucius

No you do not understand how

No you do not understand how it works the very fact that you think the people who you purchased Items from via loans would get harmed shows you do not understand at all.

Those folks got their funds up front. They got it from you and it was paid in full with just your signature. The bank is the immoral people here they tricked you into thinking they loaned you the funds they did not they do not have any funds to loan. In fact it is illegal for them to loan you funds. They brought nothing to the table but fraud.

They took your note deposited into an account as an asset and used fractional reserve to multiply it by 9 times its face value and then used those funds to pay the seller. Then they also sold you note for more funds and sometimes multiple times.

You funded the whole thing with just your signature and they created 9 times the value of your note out of thin air with the stroke of a few keys plus and what ever profit they sold it for. Everybody but you got funds from your signature especially the bank for doing nothing but defrauding you. What did you get? 20-30 years of slavery to fake indebtedness... The least they could have done after getting rich off your signature is give you the item without enslaving you to phony debt...

It is in fact your moral obligation to deprive these crooks of any more funds from you!

Listen to the "audio file" here this guy explains it better then me:

http://www.freedomsphoenix.com/Article/053338-2009-07-13-mor...

-----
End The Fat
70 pounds lost and counting! Get in shape for the revolution!

Get Prepared!

It is no

more immoral than taking out a loan to buy a house.

I guess I'm not alone

ITs no less immoral than taking out a loan of any type

including a home loan. Entering into a USURY relationship willingly. Is like voluntary slavery. Its not ok, its not moral. No matter the reason its immoral. USURY is a bane to humanity. Its not the loan, its the USURY. I wanted to say its the usury dummy but I thought that would be to insulting.

sovereign

Cyril's picture

I don't think it's a good idea, either for you and others.

I don't think it's a good idea, either for you and others.

I don't find it moral, either. That promises a lot of unintended consequences you won't appreciate later.

You ought to bring your debt to zero, here, and then start saving and put your wealth in a good store - e.g., precious metals.

You'll remain free to either stay or leave, but at least you won't have deceived anybody, unlike what the government does, precisely.

I don't live by the methods and standards of those I despise and denounce.

Just IMO.

"Cyril" pronounced "see real". I code stuff.

http://Laissez-Faire.Me/Liberty

"To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." -- Confucius

Voted you up, Lysian

I understand your point and appreciate your perspective.

Cyril's picture

One last important point:

One last important point:

as long as you're making an honest income - even if it's in fiat money - YOU CAN safely implement for yourself the strategy I recommend.

It's only people who have no real income and no perspective to ever get one that are in trouble - the last thing you want is to be 100% dependent on either the government or a big bank.

I only hope your debt is not already overwhelming, but don't let it ever become so, if it's not - by any means.

Peace.

"Cyril" pronounced "see real". I code stuff.

http://Laissez-Faire.Me/Liberty

"To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." -- Confucius

Cyril's picture

Just do your very best TO OPT OUT, progressively.

Just do your very best TO OPT OUT, progressively.

You'll find yourself with more peace of mind, and helping yourself will bring you more good fortune, eventually.

No one can beat alone a SCAMMING scheme built upon debt - hidden or in plain view, using the same sort of deceptions. Don't take that risk.

Refer to my "Clarification" comment below.

'HTH,

"Cyril" pronounced "see real". I code stuff.

http://Laissez-Faire.Me/Liberty

"To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." -- Confucius

I see your point

I just look at it as an investment though and maybe a very risky one. I watched a clip of Jim Rogers the other day in Iowa looking to buy some farm land and he recommended others do so especially if they can borrow the money to do it. Is it immoral to borrow money period, knowing that you will pay back devalued FRNs?

I guess I'm not alone

Cyril's picture

Clarification

"Is it immoral to borrow money period, knowing that you will pay back devalued FRNs?"

Well, I see where you're going to. I also think I understood the mechanics of money debasement.

But that's not the point I was making. It's about the principle and unintended consequences that nobody, neither you, or I, or the OP can predict.

As anybody, I used to be in debt with banks, providers, and a few individuals, and I did hurt myself, did have to tighten my belt in order to pay back slowly but surely. It took me years, yes... And now I am happy to have less than $1000 debt, and shrinking, on just one credit card - that I'll probably get rid of this year.

I only suggested the OP to do what I do:

TO OPT OUT of fiat money. I have no mortgage, my last and current car was paid cash, just as everything else I own indoors ... and I stack on in true, portable store of wealth now: that is, REAL MONEY - either gold or silver.

It's as simple as this - now I know I can flee any time if that'd be required for my own safety and my family's - nobody will try to chase me for the accumulated liabilities - no matter which form their SCAM scheme would happen to be - because there are none any longer.

Peace.

"Cyril" pronounced "see real". I code stuff.

http://Laissez-Faire.Me/Liberty

"To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." -- Confucius

I am the same way

I am completely debt free. I am contemplating purchasing some property and I do not have the ability to pay cash completely. Deciding that now is a good time to do this because of low interest rates and no short term worry of deflation is an investment decision that I am comfortable with. I don't believe it to be immoral because I always pay my debts. My goal is to borrow from a private source but I don't have the energy to condemn every person that gets a loan from a bank.

I guess I'm not alone