1 vote

Should Chicago Libertarians Support LeAlan Jones (G) for Congress?

By support I mean more than just vote; if a third-party candidate is going to have any chance to win a seat in Congress all their supporters are going to have to do more than vote, they are going to have to get active (sort of like Ron Paul supporters...).

http://freeindependentsun.com/republic/il-02-chicago-congres...

With that said, I put together this article with some numbers and elections analysis of the IL-02 Special Election (Primary is "today"). If LeAlan Jones can bring in early Libertarian Support and overcome the GOP Nominee, than pulling votes from Democrats will be a non-spoiler situation, especially if a non-progressive Dem. gets Nominated. If the Republicans accept a Green even as the "lesser-of-two evils" than perhaps we can get another Independent voter in Congress on April 9th.

Jones has taken many "libertarian-leaning positions" such as defending the right of Chicago citizens to bare arms in order to defend themselves against gangs and criminals, as well as questioning a carbon-tax as being harmful to the middle-class.

What do you guys think? Despite being a Green, I registered Republican to vote for Ron Paul twice. Supporting LeAlan Jones for Congress doesn't even require changing voting registration, it just requires a little love, r3VOLution style.

http://freeindependentsun.com/republic/il-02-chicago-congres...




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I think

David Earl Williams in Chicago has a real shot of winning and is time better spent - he's one of us!

https://www.facebook.com/DEWforCongress2014

Another former republican has joined the libertarian party.

Good call, Jaktober

and analysis.

Given the alternatives, if I was in that district Jones would
have my support for sure.

If we don't cooperate wisely I suppose we'll have a lot of
time to discuss doctrinal purity in FEMA camps...

Just my small "l" libertarianish green-leaning tofu hugger
opinion, of course.

That made my evening!

"Come, let's talk economic theory with the other fellas in the Hooverville."

Jack Wagner

Well hell why not

and if Obama gets a third term enacted we could get behind him too while we're being stupid.

Patriot Cell #345,168
I don't respond to emails or pm's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=qo8CmO...
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution, inevitable.

What is your objection with Jones?

Sarcasm noted; I understand the general objections with a "progressive" platform, much as I understand people's objections with a "libertarian" platform. But I also know that no candidate is exactly either. It is about direction and approach.

Ron Paul said he would have been in favor of paying for health-care if we withdrew from around the World and balanced our budget.

In the case of IL-02, where it is looking as if we could get an Independent voice in the race (if winning is out of the question, getting him into 2nd place would set him up to challenge Kelly in 2014).

I lean more "Green." To me that means I am not dead set against every Government program, but I favor low taxes on the General public and market (not against a Marijuana tax for instance, but against Income Tax), I support Gay Marraige. I'm not impressed by our currect International "Government" (IMF, WTO, World Bank, UN, NATO). I'm against most gun controls (safeties are an okay regulation).

I think Jones is closer to my sort of "Green." One that seeks balance and to represent the people.

Do you have any specific issues with why you couldn't support LeAlan Jones in his campaign to overcome Robin Kelly?

Would you rather have Greens or Democrats (even if as opposition to the Right, which would you prefer?)?

Jack Wagner

is this the video link that you're looking for?

In regards to your comment: "Ron Paul said he would have been in favor of paying for health-care if we withdrew from around the World and balanced our budget"

This may be what you're thinking of
http://youtu.be/6JHYmqokutQ?t=3m16s

Exactly!

Thanks Matt.

I think the "I'm realistic" part is good too.

To get through the transition libertarians need to see progressives as allies. A libertarian and progressive majority would be able to get us started in the right direction.

I'm not sure if either side is totally correct. In my opinion, it is what will come from both sides coming together and forming a majority with "disenfranchised" Democrats, Republicans and Independents (Green, Libertarians, etc) that will give us the "best system."

It won't be exactly what any of us predict, but it'll be better and it'll give us the environment to figure out how to perfect upon it.

"To form a more perfect union."

Jack Wagner

"What is your objection with Jones?"

http://votesmart.org/candidate/political-courage-test/116490...

Looks to be about 75 things he's bad on.

"Ron Paul said he would have been in favor of paying for health-care if we withdrew from around the World and balanced our budget."

No he didn't. The problem with progressives, repubes, liberals.. all socialistic leaning or full on groups is the have no problem lying to get their agenda passed.. They can't be trusted. Not to mention, their policies are full of shit too.

"Would you rather have Greens or Democrats (even if as opposition to the Right, which would you prefer?)?"

None of the above. Maybe a libertarian, a real one opposing all of you.

Patriot Cell #345,168
I don't respond to emails or pm's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=qo8CmO...
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution, inevitable.

He said it, I'll find the link for you...

How about his Gun Rights quote from your link," Like drugs, prohibition on guns does not address the underlying problem. Until we teach everyone about the power of a gun, and make sure they are properly trained, we will not stop the destruction that guns can create. Why is it that gun buyback programs are advertised on R&B and Hip Hop stations, but not country or AM talk stations? I do not support the disarmament of an entire community. Instead we should build training centers in every community so guns become a tool of self-defense rather than a courier of death."

"Ron Paul said he would have been in favor of paying for health-care if we withdrew from around the World and balanced our budget."

No he didn't."

* I'll try to dig that video clip up, I had to do it for someone on here before. But it's true, he said it.

As far as the 75 things, like I said, I understand the typical libertarian response to progressive policies.

But I think Matt Gonzalez made some good points when speaking at a Rally in SF with Ron Paul, "It isn't a socialist that sends their people off the war."

I'm not a die-hard Alex Jones listener, but in his recent interview with Immortal Technique he said something like, "If they were uniting everyone to be friends it'd be different, but..." Which I think is a good way of veiwing International positions taken by Greens differently than how Democrats talk about it.

I don't agree with the "Tax the Rich" deal, but I'll deal with it (and challenge taxation of income, and most taxes in general as a Green) in order to get the ball moving in the direction of independent candidates getting into office.

You may not agree with Bernie Sanders on most stuff, but I bet you like that he is super critical of the Federal Reserve (you can look up the video of him grilling Bernake, which has been used as a clip in "libertarian" media).

"None of the above. Maybe a libertarian"

* Well, in this particular election, the choices are 1) the Dem, 2) this Rep ( http://mckinleyforcongress.com/?page_id=128 ), 3) Jones, 4) the Socialist candidate, and 5) an Independent that'd "caucus with the Democrats" "if elected."

Serious question, who'd you vote for? Would you not vote? I'm seriously trying to figure out how we can get people into office that are not establishment candidates, that are not stuck in the mind-sets that are keeping us in the problems we have.

Jones would definitely help break some of those mind-sets, and be a voice against War, against the War on Drugs, against the Death Penalty.

Thanks for the comment! I'll post that link when I re-dig it up again.

Jack Wagner

"I'll try to dig that video clip up, I had to do it for someone

There is none.. What you and many others on the socialistic side do is misrepresent and spin. What he says about those systems IS that they wouldn't be in the mess they are now IF we had done A or B and those that WANT it COULD have it but that's not the progressive way of taking others peoples money so that you can have it. It's a voluntary system.. period.. anything other than that is an enemy.

You want to have social programs? Go for it but forcing someone else to go along with it will not be tolerated, anymore. That idea, either by pen or gun will be eradicated.

"But I think Matt Gonzalez made some good points when speaking at a Rally in SF with Ron Paul, "It isn't a socialist that sends their people off the war."

I don't give a fuck about a few good points. Hitler probably made a few good points too considering he got a whole nation to follow his crazy ass.

"You may not agree with Bernie Sanders on most stuff, but I bet you like that he is super critical of the Federal Reserve"

You play political jockeying moves.. trying to get someone to agree a little here.. trying to creep into the conversation. You'll never make any headway with people like me because someone "says" they are for this or that.

Sanders is a POS socialist that doesn't understand the first thing about Liberty nor does he care for it.. People like him seek power and money.. Power to lord over others and money that brings that power with all of the trappings.

"I'm seriously trying to figure out how we can get people into office that are not establishment candidates, that are not stuck in the mind-sets that are keeping us in the problems we have."

No you're not.. you're seeking to get progressive candidates into office and you hope to use Ron Paul's call for "alliances" to do it.

All forms of socialism and fascism need to be purged by any means necessary so that we may start over. You want representation, you'll have it in a Libertarian society because you'll be free to do whatever you want.. Form your own social security.. form your own paths to anything that your little hearts desire but don't you dare try to effect policy that seeks to curtail/abolish another person rights through force because people like me will see you as an enemy and rightly so.

You want us to work together? Show me that you can hold to Libertarian ideas and principles and still hold your ideas through those and in doing so, show me in your actions by picking people who can do the same.

Your buddy Jones doesn't respect those ideas because if he did, he wouldn't be wrong on those 75ish things.

Patriot Cell #345,168
I don't respond to emails or pm's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=qo8CmO...
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution, inevitable.

Please treat this conversation with respect

**** First let me apologize, I seriously cannot find the link. I had re-posted it on here, but I just spent digging through my comments and will need to go through them (rather than the titles and dates). Another fellow that was equally steadfast was questioning the quote as well. If I stumble across it I'll link it up.

* Second, We are both adults, please refrain from disrespecting this serious conversation with profanity and hyperbole.

Coalition doesn't mean you agree on everything. If LeAlan Jones was a pure libertarian than there'd be no need for this conversation. We have this conversation because it is often difficult to see past difference and see how we can work together.

Watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRa8MZEwjpo

"I got progressives and libertarians and conservatives together and we actually had an agreement that we shouldn't be having deficit financing, we didn't agree on where to spend and who to tax." - Ron Paul

Here's Paul's budget; goo.gl/5E3kc - Medicare and Social Security are still there.

If I find that video I'll post it up. It is similar to the quote posted for this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNtWb6q8igs

"We'd have trillions of dollars to spend if we didn't have these wasteful wars."

Paul is for a full free market system, but he has made the point that if we ended the wars it'd be a much less volitale debate, we could take care of those that are dependent on the system and transition to a free-market system.

I have no problem with a public opition in conjunction with "more freedom" (interstate insurance, the use of generics, price competition, and no mandate). But, as a Green that supports a public option, I see the libertarian approach being beneficial toward reforming the system in general (and to start with) that'll make it better for all.

Jack Wagner

"Please treat this conversation with respect...

* Second, We are both adults, please refrain from disrespecting this serious conversation with profanity and hyperbole."

I give all of the respect that is due to socialists and socialistic ideas and if you think any of that is hyperbole, you need to clean the crap out of your eyes because it's coming. I'm deadly serious and I'm far from alone.

"Coalition doesn't mean you agree on everything. If LeAlan Jones was a pure libertarian than there'd be no need for this conversation. We have this conversation because it is often difficult to see past difference and see how we can work together.

Watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRa8MZEwjpo"

I'll watch it for the off chance that I haven't seen the video but not for the "off chance" that I don't have a solid fix on his positions..

I find it very suspect that someone who runs sites such as yours and that is intelligent would miss the meaning in his use of the word "coalition"... He has always spoken that word in terms of voting for an issue.. NEVER as voting for a candidate of an opposing political stance. So tell me.. did you just mess it up accidentally or are you being dishonest.

"I got progressives and libertarians and conservatives together and we actually had an agreement that we shouldn't be having deficit financing, we didn't agree on where to spend and who to tax." - Ron Paul"

See above...

"Here's Paul's budget; goo.gl/5E3kc - Medicare and Social Security are still there."

I've already seen it.. but isn't there an option for people to get out of it? Isn't that what he has campaigned on? See maybe you mistake his libertarian compassion for agreement with your socialistic ideals.. you'd be wrong in doing that of course.

It's just common sense and compassion to not throw people off of SS day one. <---- now I know this is where you think you see an in but you'd be wrong about that too. Weening people off won't be done by placing the opposite of what we need in office to accomplish that.

See, you progressives could take this time to learn to adapt but you won't most likely because it's easier to lobby the government to force us to do what you want than it is to adapt the principles of Liberty.

So coming together on an issue? Sure..

Coming together to get your guy into office.. You're stark raving mad if you think that's going to happen.

Patriot Cell #345,168
I don't respond to emails or pm's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=qo8CmO...
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution, inevitable.

Progressives helped Paul...

The whole point of this post is to talk about whether or not Libertarians would be better represented, and if the issues that are important to us, would be served by helping Jones get into office over Kelly (the Democrat).

Yes, Paul gave an option to opt-out. That was his campaign position. I'm trying to point out that that position is a compromise. A lot of "progressives" voted for Paul despite disagreeing on some issues (such as environmental regulations, and abortion). The reason why many progressives backed Paul was that overall, even with the disagreements, his election would have been better for Progressives than the re-election of Obama.

What I am asking is if Libertarians can see the same in candidates like Jones.

We don't elect Kings. We don't elect Barons. We elect representatives to a "checked-and-balances" system. It is about stirring in the right direction and having people in office that can think.

Think about the Gun Rights issue; Jones is against the Assault Weapon ban and support concealed weapons laws. If he is the best Gun Rights candidates running in that election, would a Gun Rights libertarian see past his positions on issues such as taxation of the rich (which you won't avoid by letting Kelly get into office), in favor of at least getting someone in office that agrees with a number of your positions?

Jack Wagner

"The whole point of this post is to talk about whether or not

Libertarians would be better represented, and if the issues that are important to us, would be served by helping Jones get into office over Kelly (the Democrat)."

And I told you, no. And you're not a libertarian lol

"Yes, Paul gave an option to opt-out. That was his campaign position."

It's not just his position.. it's his main belief.. A voluntary system.

"I'm trying to point out that that position is a compromise."

No it's not.. it's a common sense approach to his views. There is no way to get to where he wants without considering the path and having compassion in getting there. A compromise, is giving someone else something that you didn't want for something you do.. He's not bargaining with anyone.. He's making a clear path to independence.

"A lot of "progressives" voted for Paul despite disagreeing on some issues (such as environmental regulations, and abortion)."

Now THAT'S a compromise.

"It is about stirring in the right direction and having people in office that can think."

No, it's about HEADING intently, purposely in the right direction.. Not stirring or meandering or wobbly walking or lateral moving and surely not going back to go forward.

Patriot Cell #345,168
I don't respond to emails or pm's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=qo8CmO...
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution, inevitable.

Poll Up

Robin Kelly win Dem. Primary

http://www.politico.com/2013-election/results/house/illinois/

Looks like the GOP primary is still too close to call, but the total votes in either back up my effort to show Jones (G) as the better opposition candidate to face Kelly than whichever Rep. candidate wins.

Jack Wagner