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Would you believe the God of the Bible if you knew the Bible were true?

Although I don't think this thread should be relegated to 'weird stuff', It's probably where it will end up. So, I've done it myself. :)

On to the question, though. I've heard many people say things like, "Well, if God is like THAT, then I don't want to worship Him anyway." My assertion is that a statement like this proves that one is not interested in truth, but only in what he/she would like to believe is truth.

Since I was a child, I have asked questions about everything. One of my math teachers used to laugh because I would never accept "just because" for an answer. I always had to know why something was the way it was. I despised being lied to about anything, whether it was Santa Claus or sex. I suppose that's why I ended up here.

I can't understand why others stop short of finding out the whys. I'm even more surprised that people in the 'liberty movement', don't want to dig deeper when confronted with uncomfortable ideas.

If you want truth, you will be willing to accept it regardless of how you have to change your life to conform to it. If it means that you cannot be a sodomite, you will change. If it means you cannot send your children to public school, you will change. If it means rejecting previous religious beliefs, you will change. And on and on the list could go.

God says in His Word, that if you seek you will find. But, the fact of the matter is, most people don't want truth very badly. They would rather stay comfortable and hope that what they believe is true. If you make up your mind that you will accept and embrace the truth, even if it is the God of the Bible, then you will find. As long as you say, "I'll accept truth if it is.....", you will never find it.

I made up my mind long ago that even if God WAS a brutal authoritarian, I would serve Him--if He was true. Even if He said things I didn't like, I would worship Him if He was really God. Of course, I found that He loves me and wants the best for me and every other human being. But, to find this, I had to be willing to believe truth whatever I found it to be.

Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man cometh unto the Father, but by me." He was (in the words of C.S. Lewis) either a Liar, a Lunatic, or the Lord Himself.

As many hours as I spend researching and reading, this life is not enough for me to understand--it's so short--a tiny dash between two dates on a tombstone. I want to know where I am going when I die---the "me" that is inside my body. If there is a God who will give me these answers, I want to know.

I have now found and can attest to you that Jesus Christ is TRUTH. He is God Almighty come down to make a way for us to God. But, I cannot desire truth for you--that is something only you can do. So, ask yourself today, "How important is truth to me?" And know this, liberty will never succeed without it.

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Religion is false if it is not truth.

Yes, literal, honest to goodness, 2+2=4, undeniable truth.

Faith is something that inspires you to believe something that you can not necessarily grasp physically or mentally. But that something will not go against reason.

Faith is reasonable even if it is not always easy to explain. It is a sort of faith that makes me think that somewhere in this world some other human being put their thoughts into this post above under the screen name of awl19. I don't understand how a computer works. I know very little about how electricity works. But I believe that there is an intelligent person on the other end whom I can communicate with using a "computer" device. It's not an unreasonable belief and I think it is truth.

"True truth," you typed. Is there an untrue truth? How could that be? Can I be accused of believing an untruth simply because I do not understand physics and computer science?

I'd be a fool to have faith in something that wasn't truth.

awl19: "Don't try to enforce your faith as truth. You'll only look like a fool."

I won't try to force anyone to believe every article of my faith. But I do find it offensive that others would think that I believe an "untrue truth." I believe something that I can't fully explain and you can't disprove. ...or at least, I can't think of any way that you could disprove it.

our FOUNDING FATHERS were ALL CHRISTIANS

I think the point is that THEY believed. In fact, they were both CATHOLICS & PROTESTANTS, all of them, every single one of them.

If you look up to our Founding Fathers, why not take a second look at Christianity. Even they said that the government they devised would fail, if the Constitution's foundation of their Christian beliefs were to turn into paganism.

'What I would give for

'What I would give for Christians to get a taste of living in a country where the majority doesn't share their faith. People calling you ignorant, misguided, cretins, or even someone who isn't "seeking truth."'

Oh I do live in a country like that--read a lot of the comments. :)

I never accused anyone of not seeking truth. I don't know the hearts of others. I merely asked a question and encouraged you to ask yourself the same.

You tell me--can liberty succeed without truth?

Faith can be based on truth. I have faith the sun will rise tomorrow. Don't confuse biblical faith with credulity.

I am tolerant. I don't want to hurt or kill anyone who disagrees with me. But, I still want them to believe truth and will heartily try to persuade them to do so.

Christians should not be warmongers! http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance87.html

Like talking to a brick wall...

You tell me--can liberty succeed without truth?

No, but again you confuse your faith with truth.

If Christianity was able to be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt as truth do you think there'd be disputes over which religion was right or wrong? No, Christianity would be the only path.

It's the very fact that religion is based on faith that makes people unsure of its validity.

Deny that and you deny logic itself.

Don't try to enforce your faith as truth. You'll only look like a fool.

hmm

I think she wasn't confusing faith with truth. I think she was saying that liberty can't succeed without truth, and that seeking truth is what led her to her faith. So seeking truth is the main ingredient in both pursuits.

Regarding what you said about disputes, I think it's wrong. I knew a Satanist who believed that the God of the bible was true, he just didn't want to have anything to do with God. If you think about it, most of what is known about Satan comes from the Bible. The Bible itself mentions that demons believe, and that there is(or was) war in heaven at some point. Also, undeniable proof isn't necessarily persuasive to people who don't care about truth. Consider the words of Jesus according to the gospel of Luke in 16:31 "And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

Also, I'm under the impression that your definition of 'faith' is probably different than that of Christians. Biblical faith is not wishful thinking. It is a form of trust, and trust is something that is earned and is based on some sort of evidence. Because religion deals with things like the supernatural, and incomprehensible concepts related to God, much of it requires faith, or trust. But that trust can be based on evidence and arrived at in reasonable ways.

She is without a doubt

Claiming that her faith is absolute truth, for us all.

I am not mixing definitions. I don't think faith is wishful thinking. But the fact is, you can't prove faith. You can prove that God exists? No, you can only have belief that he exists.

That's why I say there's a difference in truth and faith.

Truth

Noun
The quality or state of being true: "the truth of her accusation".
That which is true or in accordance with fact or reality: "tell me the truth".

Faith

Noun
Complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
Strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.

Belief

Noun
An acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
Something one accepts as true or real; a firmly held opinion or conviction.

I realize this is not particularly original

and you have likely heard it before but....."It takes more faith to NOT believe than than to believe in God." I mean if you believe the big bang theory or that we just formed out of some glob theory or even the theory of evolution....seriously that is much more of a leap of faith than believing in a creator who is GOD. Just look at the wonders of creation all around us. It is right before your eyes.

Talk to a few recovered drunks and drug addicts who have turned there addictions over and after years of being clean that attribute their healing from addiction to Jesus. Talk to some people who have had miracles in their life (or what they term miracles). Talk to some who have had prayers answered or some who were in such pain emotional, physical, spiritual and or mental and ask them how they got through. When they tell you my prayers have been answered, do you belive them?

I personally do not understand when people say there is no proof of God. The proof of a creator, the proof of good and evil is all around us. Just open your eyes and your ears. It really is pretty obvious. For those who do not want to believe, there will never be enough proof, for those seeking.....truly seeking him.....they will find him (Jesus). Those who seek him will find him....and in short order.

hmm

"Claiming that her faith is absolute truth, for us all."

But when she says liberty can't succeed without truth, she doesn't seem to be talking about faith. I think you just have a little faulty logic here. To say ones faith is absolutely true for everybody doesn't entail the idea that every use of the word 'truth' implies that faith. she could say that it is absolutely true that her nose has two nostrils, but it wouldn't mean that her nose having two nostrils is required for the pursuit of liberty.

"But the fact is, you can't prove faith. You can prove that God exists? No, you can only have belief that he exists."

Proof kind of depends on who it is being proven to. There are logical arguments which some assert demonstrate the existence of God logically. But Jesus said in Luke 16:31: "And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

If a truth is absolute then it is absolute for

everyone whether they belive it or not. That is what absolute truth means. The problem as I see it today is that so few want there to be absolute truth because they somehow equate that with tyranny. This is so ironic as absolute truth is the opposite of tyranny.

If you want a fair argument

You have to view the conversation in context.

I have now found and can attest to you that Jesus Christ is TRUTH.
So, ask yourself today, "How important is truth to me?" And know this, liberty will never succeed without it.

You're either misunderstanding what her message is or you're trying to frame the conversation in a way that helps your argument. She is in fact stating that her faith is truth and that liberty cannot succeed without THAT "truth."

Proof is proof, my friend. Whether or not you believe in un-provable things is the exact point I'm trying to make. And let me just say that quoting scripture does not bode well to make your points.

I'll lay this out as simply as possible: The existence of God is not provable, it is a based on a measure of faith. Those of us who like definitive proof are logically skeptical of something that cannot be proven. You cannot prove there is a God and I cannot disprove that there's a God. We can however agree that the liberty movement hinges on truth and truth is based on things that are provable.

She didn't say "that truth",

She didn't say "that truth", those are your words. I don't see what she said as explicitly stating your view when reading the entire context and not just your snippit. I'll let her further clarify for herself what she means.

"Proof is proof, my friend. Whether or not you believe in un-provable things is the exact point I'm trying to make. "

I'm not totally certain if what you mean by 'proof' here is the same thing I think.

I think the definition here which I grabbed off the net is sufficient: Proof - evidence sufficient to establish a thing as true, or to produce belief in its truth.

If something is established as true, who is it established as true to? and who's belief is produced in it's truth? I don't see how you can separate the believer from the proof in this question.
Scripture quotes can demonstrate concepts of which the truth of could be recognized without believing that the scripture is authoritative. To reject a point merely because it comes from the Bible is the Genetic fallacy.

How did you come to the conclusion that God is unprovable? To say that God is not provable is a strong claim, much stronger than saying God has never been proven. And I have to wonder if such a strong claim has any proof. If God (as defined in the Bible) exists, God could demonstrate his existence in an undeniable way as he did with Saul who became Paul. How would Paul's miraculous experience not be considered proof, at least to Paul since he was there to observe the proof? If any form of proof of God is merely possible, then you can't say that God is unprovable and be correct. And if the Bible is true, then proof of God would be possible(i.e. divine intervention). So Saying that God is unprovable is sort of begging the question in presuming that he doesn't exist before the question of whether or not he is provable is even addressed. I'm not really getting into the classical philosophical arguments for God's existence here since your error seems to be at such a basic level. But some might consider those to be proofs of God outside of divine intervention.

Semantics, period.

You're abusing definitions of words to benefit your argument.

I'm not going to attempt to compete with that nonsense.

semantics have value. semantics = meaning.

I don't understand why people treat the word 'semantics' as if it's a bad word. It gives me the impression that their understanding of linguistic terms comes from everyday misuse of them. I don't see how any abuse is involved in acknowledging the meanings of words. But if that's your excuse to avoid dealing with the arguments, I won't stop you.

Would you believe in fairies if you knew they were true?

Your question is silly

Of course. If they were true, I would definitely want to

believe in them. Why would I want to believe a lie?

Christians should not be warmongers! http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance87.html

Agreed.

Yup.

Yuuuup!

Fallacy runs rampant amongst humans. We are just smart enough to use language to communicate, but not smart enough to use it correctly.

Free market capitalism isn't right for America because it works better. It's right because it's free (and it works better).

Very well stated!

"If you make up your mind that you will accept and embrace the truth, even if it is the God of the Bible, then you will find. As long as you say, "I'll accept truth if it is.....", you will never find it."

Jeremiah 29:13 KJV
And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

Why

As someone that is not a Christian (nor other religious type believer) must I consider God to be a 'must' in Liberty? I am moral, I believe in the Golden Rule deeply (Brought to us by the Babylonian Talmud, long before Christ or the God of the Hebrews was ever considered).

When these topics come up it's almost like having Jehovah Witness knock on my door, standing there with eyes like saucers, dressed nicely, with two kids along with them who are quietly innocent looking so maybe I will not slam the door in their face for interrupting the breakfast I am having with my family. An attempt at guilting me into listening to them. I say, "No, thank you" and close the door without haste or hate.

One man's truth is another man's fallacy. Liberty is my guide, my truth and my goal. I don't even consider that God, who has never spoken to me though I've searched in past years gone by, should be my guide in any way.

There are many truths in the Bible, I have read it more than many Christians I've met, but not all. There are many truths in the Koran, and I have read a few translations of this book as well, which is more than most people have done or ever will do. The one truth I have taken with me is that God helps those who help themselves. Ask nothing of God you are not willing to ask of yourself.

Self determination is stronger than prayer. Liberty holds more truth in and of itself than the bonds of Religion.

I am glad Christians and others of any faith have found something that enables them to seek Liberty, but why do so many feel compelled to proselytize to those of us who are already here for Liberty. If I was seeking Christ I will go to many known places that are more than willing to share their views on this topic.

I am not here to deny to accept the message you share, but to say that you can be here by my side in our plight for Liberty with or without Christ in your head or heart and I will accept you. However, I do not want to argue with you about Christ being absolutely necessary for true Liberty, because it is simply not true.

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um..

"the Golden Rule ... (Brought to us by the Babylonian Talmud, long before Christ or the God of the Hebrews was ever considered)."

Wait, are you talking about this babylonian talmud from hundreds of years after Jesus and almost a couple thousand years after leviticus 19:18? Talmud Bavli: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talmud#Talmud_Bavli_.28Babylon...

Liberty can be partially espoused, but never

fully realized without THE TRUTH.

My main concern is not for liberty on earth (though that is extremely important). My main concern is that people have eternal life and not end up in hell when they die. What could matter more than that?

Christians should not be warmongers! http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance87.html

Yes and no

First half of your message made sense to me. I am myself is quite like this. Always doubting everything in search for understanding. Truth for me is singular understanding with all perspectives accounted for. So you either can be closer to it or further away from it. Current humanity's struggle is to misinterpret events with less failure along the way. Meaning - getting closer to the truth. No matter what people believe, think, admit or wish - it doesn't change the matter of fact -whatever the actuality of the fact may be. However - one can deduce whether his cognitive effort going the right way. Simply logic of the that is as following: person creates his/her own axiom from which personal worldview spurs. For some it's God. Now the catch is when you start explaining events around and inside you - whether new axioms you invent eventually get proven. Current mainstream science for instance fails at this. Current mainstream religious beliefs fail at this even more so.

Now I could relate to your religious devotion to some extent - almost went that way myself. However, I myself have come to understand that there is no need for God, for anyone to teach me or command me to be good and honest - that is a natural way anyway. The only power I was ever interested in having is freedom - freedom from any entity, no matter existing or conjured up by someone's mind. Power to be free from control by anything comes only from understanding of that. So that is what I seek - to understand truth about God. Thus I cannot allow myself to believe, to lose control over my life.

On a side note - In my struggle for knowledge I've come across a lot of interesting data, including subject that you mentioned with quite some passion - life and death. If you're interested in constructive conversation on the matter - write me a personal message.

Only as high as i reach can i grow
Only as far as i seek can i go
Only as deep as i look can i see
Only as much as i dream can i be

Ahhh....

...but then you are up against human cognitive dissonance.

You seemed to have mastered the cognitive dissonance within yourself. It is masterable.

Most people have not. Even people in this movement. Many atheists are actually religionists, no different than any other religion, as there is NO DATA OR CRITERIA that could ever prove their beliefs negative, which is illogical.

Logic REQUIRES for something to be true, there must be a set of criteria that, if it existed, would demonstrate it to be false.

I think you are stating a specific instance of this. Irrationality is when there is NO criteria or data that could prove a hypothesis false.

In other words, if people found out that the bible were true, many would still not change their lives because they will all of a sudden face the cognitive dissonance chasm before them where they are still on the side of what they believeD was true with the truth that they now see on the other side of the chasm.

Some will be able to traverse it. Some will ignore it. Some will fight it.

I have now found and can

I have now found and can attest to you that Jesus Christ is TRUTH. He is God Almighty come down to make a way for us to God.

Why do you think this?

Hmmm

Why would you think everything evolved from a hydrogen atom?

I wouldn't

I wouldn't make either assumption until there's ample evidence.

I find myself asking this

I find myself asking this question to "conservatives" who call themselves Christian yet clamor for and support war.

I am upset over all going on with Bradley Manning. A true Christian has to ask himself "who will have more to answer for when they reach St. Peter at the Pearly Gates? The drone pilots who murdered innocent men and children in cold blood, or Bradley Manning, who informed the masses of this state suppressed atrocity?"

If a Christian is a Christian, they must believe in Christ and his teachings. Christ said to love one another, not to kill one another, or love people who do live inside a 3,000 mile radius of you and kill anyone else. That is cut and dry to me. However, war-hawk Christians love to scour the old Testament and pervert God's command directly to Moses and Joshua as biblical justification for Bush's and Obama's wars. It is frustrating.

I completely understand your frustration. And Bradley

Manning will most likely have much less to answer for than many people. However, He will still stand before God and give account for his life. And he, like every other human being who's ever lived, will be found a guilty sinner.

The "Christians" who use the old testament as justification for their own wars, are deceived or purposefully ignorant and do not rightly divide the word of truth. America is not God's Chosen Race and we certainly are not letting Him lead us. God's kingdom is being built of people from all nations and is not built by force but by love.

Christians should not be warmongers! http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance87.html