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Would you believe the God of the Bible if you knew the Bible were true?

Although I don't think this thread should be relegated to 'weird stuff', It's probably where it will end up. So, I've done it myself. :)

On to the question, though. I've heard many people say things like, "Well, if God is like THAT, then I don't want to worship Him anyway." My assertion is that a statement like this proves that one is not interested in truth, but only in what he/she would like to believe is truth.

Since I was a child, I have asked questions about everything. One of my math teachers used to laugh because I would never accept "just because" for an answer. I always had to know why something was the way it was. I despised being lied to about anything, whether it was Santa Claus or sex. I suppose that's why I ended up here.

I can't understand why others stop short of finding out the whys. I'm even more surprised that people in the 'liberty movement', don't want to dig deeper when confronted with uncomfortable ideas.

If you want truth, you will be willing to accept it regardless of how you have to change your life to conform to it. If it means that you cannot be a sodomite, you will change. If it means you cannot send your children to public school, you will change. If it means rejecting previous religious beliefs, you will change. And on and on the list could go.

God says in His Word, that if you seek you will find. But, the fact of the matter is, most people don't want truth very badly. They would rather stay comfortable and hope that what they believe is true. If you make up your mind that you will accept and embrace the truth, even if it is the God of the Bible, then you will find. As long as you say, "I'll accept truth if it is.....", you will never find it.

I made up my mind long ago that even if God WAS a brutal authoritarian, I would serve Him--if He was true. Even if He said things I didn't like, I would worship Him if He was really God. Of course, I found that He loves me and wants the best for me and every other human being. But, to find this, I had to be willing to believe truth whatever I found it to be.

Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man cometh unto the Father, but by me." He was (in the words of C.S. Lewis) either a Liar, a Lunatic, or the Lord Himself.

As many hours as I spend researching and reading, this life is not enough for me to understand--it's so short--a tiny dash between two dates on a tombstone. I want to know where I am going when I die---the "me" that is inside my body. If there is a God who will give me these answers, I want to know.

I have now found and can attest to you that Jesus Christ is TRUTH. He is God Almighty come down to make a way for us to God. But, I cannot desire truth for you--that is something only you can do. So, ask yourself today, "How important is truth to me?" And know this, liberty will never succeed without it.

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yes, but only the Geneva bible.


what's with all the bible talk?

The Liberty movement isn't a "Christian" movement. How about having this discussion on a Jesus website?

^^ Easy Answer

Because to make a statement of what is good for society in a political sense requires definitions of right and wrong and to have any objective meaning of right and wrong of what is true for all people requires an objective standard above the mere individual. The only objective standard for right and wrong that can hold is one set by an omnipotent Creator, otherwise it is merely what I feel is right vs what you feel is right. A properly grounded liberty movement depends on a Creator God as John Locke knew and as our founding fathers copied from him.

Because the neocons have

Because the neocons have nowhere else to go, so they thought they'd bother the Libertarians for a while.

Doesn't the Bible say "with all thy getting get understanding?"

Understanding is not "Faith" -- Faith is Blind Belief that if you jump, God will catch you (you wont fall), it is a "leap" with no "known" landing.

According to Wikipedia: "Understanding is a relation between the knower and an object of understanding. Understanding implies abilities and dispositions with respect to an object of knowledge sufficient to support intelligent behavior."

We are supposed to "have" faith but "get" understanding?

True faith is not blind belief :

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen. (Hebrews 11:1)

Faith and reason are not in opposition:

We have faith (for example) that Ron Paul will continue to uphold the principles of liberty. Why do we hold this faith? Ron Paul has reasonably proved himself to be a man who consistently upholds his principles.

The same is true of Messiah. There is plenty of evidence for His existence, His death and (yes!) His resurrection!

"Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern." ~~C.S. Lewis
Love won! Deliverance from Tyranny is on the way! Col. 2:13-15

No: Do you understand the difference between "proofs?"

The "proof" of RP's "continued" support of liberty being an act of "faith" on our part is not the same thing as "proof" Jesus rose from the dead "so take it on faith" -- you do see the difference?

I have met people who met Ron Paul and who worked directly under Ron Paul -- I have videos, radio excerpts, and books to back up everything RP has ever said (at least publicly).

I do not have "faith" my great grandfather was a "good man" -- I could draw the conclusion that since my grandparent is "good" that he must have been born from "good stock" -- you see how "loose" that is right?

The case for Jesus is far far far worse. No one today can claim to know of anyone, even by familial lineage, that could attest for Jesus greatness let alone his divinity.

If we take organizations word-for-it, that Jesus was "good" (let alone great and divine); we'd have to begin overlooking all the evil those organizations have wrought -- which makes the "leap" a lot harder than the one for my grandparent.

I'm not saying there isn't value in in "faith" but one cannot make a good argument that having faith is better-than having a great imagination -- from imagination we can see terrific entrepreneurial pursuits, skyscrapers, automobiles etc etc.

Faith is natural -- but in modern times it usually comes with many legal-ethical-binding contractual-assurances. I'm thinking of the certification saying an elevator is in perfect working order -- which I examine every time I get in an elevator.

The faith required for the Bible, especially with the organizations "legitimizing" it, is a huuuuuuuuuuge stretch; if one uses reason and logic as a guide.

I was not clear enough in my response

I said that the belief that Ron Paul has upheld his principles is similar to the belief that Messiah rose from the dead. As you point out they are both based on eyewitness evidence.

You implied that my argument was based on a long chain of hearsay witnesses and also that it was based on suspect organizations. I did not say either one. (The history of the Hierarchy in the church, and how they persecuted both those who differed in their own rank, and those who made a faith claim other than that of Christianity, is granted! And mourned.)

The same logic and reason that prove Ron Paul's integrity have convinced logical people that the resurrection is the best explanation of the evidence, both evidence from the Gospels themselves and evidence from secular sources. (These reasonable people include those who were actually opposed to the gospel, starting from James and Paul and, continuing to this day, C.S. Lewis, Lee Strobel, and Frank Morison.)

The chain of inferences goes something like this:
1. The Bible should be interpreted like any other set of historic documents.
2. Using these interpretation methods we find internal and external evidence that the Bible is highly reliable relative to other sources.
3. Specifically, using the Bible and external sources we find it highly reliable that Jesus existed and was killed for claiming to be God, among other reasons; we also find evidence showing it unlikely that he was not insane or lying; we also find historical evidence for a resurrection that is not easily answered by alternative hypotheses.
4. DYOC.

Honest skeptics do not reduce the argument to ad hominem on an organization or to a sweeping generalization about the veracity of the alleged eyewitnesses. I trust you'll let us know where your conclusions lie. Thanks for listening.

"Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern." ~~C.S. Lewis
Love won! Deliverance from Tyranny is on the way! Col. 2:13-15

No -- I'm sorry, once again, you are making huuuuge assumptions

It is NOT the same thing (to say) that RP has held to his guns (the belief in that) -- that that belief is similar to the belief that Jesus rose from the grave!!!

I can "show" (prove) RP's voting record -- that's what we are talking about, that he held to his guns (in RP's case it's voting record).

One might argue that it's also his publically declared philosophy (that of constitutionalism etc) -- but again I can PROVE that or make a good argument for it.

Therefore from these first-order "proofs" (over 35 years) I can say that I have "faith" that he will continue -- but nothing is "banking" on it; I don't have to think a certain way, I don't have to tythe, I don't have to kneel, I don't have to recite maxims, I don't have to adhere to a code of ethics -- I don't have to do ANYTHING to arrive at this "faith".

Jesus' being resurrected is a whole 'nother matter.

This would be obvious to you if I said that in a former life John the Baptist was Elijah and Jesus was his disciple Elisha (returned again).

Paramahansa Yogananda makes this argument in his work "The 2nd Coming of Christ" (by Yogananda published through SRF).

Regardless how well laid out his arguments are, you will not have "faith" in it -- you'll think it's heresy or blasphemy.

Faith in Jesus' resurrection is a different kind of "belief" or "faith" then the behavior of someone you know and can know infinitely better.

None of this makes you "wrong" -- it's just that you can't ask to be taken seriously on things that require an abandonment of reason and logic.


Love your post

During this past election year, I had asked myself something that kinda scared me: what if, after all of my study into liberty and the evils of socialism and such, I find out that all of the things I had studied were false? What if socialism was a true way of government and such, God-sanctioned and everything, and it's only messing up because we're flawed human beings? Would my faith in God be strong enough to change my political position? At the time, I was afraid that my answer would be no. Thinking that maybe I didn't have enough faith to change my political stance, if need be, scared me, and got me to reading the scriptures more and praying more. I want to be faithful to God and to Truth, regardless of what that might mean. So I guess I had to be like the father of the possessed son, when he asked Jesus to help him with his unbelief.

Thank you for posting this.

"Moderation in temper is always a virtue; but moderation in principle is always a vice." -- Thomas Paine

Thanks for your question..

Thanks for your question.. Hopefully I can shed some light on it for you.

I want to know where I am going when I die---the "me" that is inside my body. If there is a God who will give me these answers, I want to know

You're going to decompose or transform into ashes. You're body will give nutrients and life to the soil. Or a nice decoration in your granddaughters living room inside a vase. The "you" that is inside is exactly that. You're a unique, highly-evolved organism that is just starting to grasp existence.

In the.. many words of Alan Watts: “Trying to define yourself is like trying to bite your own teeth.” “The meaning of life is just to be alive. It is so plain and so obvious and so simple. And yet, everybody rushes around in a great panic as if it were necessary to achieve something beyond themselves.” “We seldom realize, for example that our most private thoughts and emotions are not actually our own. For we think in terms of languages and images which we did not invent, but which were given to us by our society.” “You are a function of what the whole universe is doing in the same way that a wave is a function of what the whole ocean is doing.” “To have faith is to trust yourself to the water. When you swim you don't grab hold of the water, because if you do you will sink and drown. Instead you relax, and float.” “You are an aperture through which the universe is looking at and exploring itself.”
It's all about perspective and where you were brought up. The "God" of the Bible was invented in a time where people thought the earth wasn't round and had very little understanding of our place in space and time. The stories can form some great morals but I have very little compassion for those so pursuant on pushing a specific religion as "THE ONLY WAY..."

It's a very selfish opinion that is hardly reputable. Look outside at night. The stars you are seeing are suns and planet surround many of them. All matter is from the same source, a giant gas cloud light years away. The "picture" you're looking at is a moment in the past.. many of the stars you see are not even there (in the stars present moment).. yet light is still traveling to us. This shows the level of understand that only 100 years ago, humans did not have.

What makes you think a "God" has understand such as humans?
Why did your God not deliver a message to the dinosaurs? Do you believe animals don't have feelings? Do you believe animals are incapable of learning moral code or receiving "voices" in their heads such as those in the Bible received from your "God"? Do you really believe God waited 5+ billion years for humans to evolve to start shaping the social/moral structure of Earth?

Even if there was such a thing as a "God" in the way the Bible describes... he would look at us humans as we look at mold on a piece of bread. I think Christians take a turn for the worse when they truly believe "God" is more believable as the fictitious Bible's portrayal, rather than simply the beautiful, complex interaction of the Universe as a whole.

You can live a happy, full-filling, morally acceptable, socially respected life without being a religious nut. Simply take a look at the entirety of everything. The sky, other cultures and religions. Start asking questions and wondering why.. Lead don't follow. Religion creation was a big hit in the 1800's and back... the cultures of the past craved this human-derived "God" figure. They had a massive thirst for knowledge and understanding when it comes to the big questions humans have.. Why are we here? How did we get here? Where do we go afterwards?

As time has passed and our technology and understanding has risen, many have came to a conclusion.. and that is... we're here due giant gas cloud far out in the unknown. We're moving further away from it every second. What we do here is up to ourselves. I'll spend mine being compassionate, helpful, kind and giving as much as I can while maintaining a loving relationships with friends/family, a job, shelter, food, and the occasionally peaceful walks the the woods. Meantime, you may keep asking selfish questions such as why aren't people following MY faith and MY god..

Peace brother

"One man with courage is a majority." ~ Andrew Jackson

God put it into every human being to know that He exists.

That is why humans have a sense of truth and justice, right and wrong, love, hate, etc.

Christians should not be warmongers!

if that were true then

why the need to teach kids about god if according to you,

"god put it into every human being to know that he exists"

Many who were not taught about God as children, grow up to

seek and find God.

Christians should not be warmongers!

They surpress what they knew.

Romans 1:21 "Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened."

Romans 1:18 "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth."


Plato's Innate ideas for the win!


I think it is more reasonable to say that God left a signal in each human, kind of a homing beacon, to make aware his existence, and I call that signal human Logic. He also left physical reality as his second signal, so you would have to ask, how did all this get here?

You are confusing knowledge with faith.

Embrace yoru faith if it is important to you, but knowledge is NOT faith. Faith is NOT knowledge.

And where you are going when you die is the EXACT SAME PLACE EVERYONE ELSE GOES. Here's the kicker - no one knows where that is. That is where most humans trip up... they want to know, someone gives them an answer and ANY answer is better than not knowing... unless you care about truth. The truth is, you will know soon enough. For now, enjoy this miraculous little adventure called "life."
Do you think a baby in the womb wants to know what life will be like? Do you think there is any way to explain to that baby what life will be like? The baby does not know "blue" from "salty." You have no common frame of reference to communicate with the baby. That is how it is with Russell Means and Aaron Russo, my parents and grandparents. They would come back and tell us if they could, but whatever is "over there" is beyond our ability to know. Unknowable. You can either learn to get comfortable with unknowable concepts, or you can take a leap of faith. I do not care for faith, I try to use it only when forced to, but I know many people think faith is more valuable than truth, especially since truth often comes in "I don't know" flavors.

Love or fear? Choose again with every breath.

You say no one knows where

You say no one knows where they go when they die. Yet, from my experience I've seen a variety of species, large and small, die and rest upon the ground. Some have their innards and bones chewed up by hungry by scavengers, leaving the remains as nutrients for the soil.. or a nice artifact for future humans to find. We have just recently (in the large scale of time) developed the idea of dressing up the dead in cloths, makeup and enclosed tombs/coffins. I suppose there's also the small chance my dead body is taken up in a spaceship and placed on the moon.

I'm quite comfortable with that reality. A footprint of my being will be left behind in some way or another. I can live my life just as compassionate, helpful and giving as the most devout Christian without bringing faith into the conversation.

We can observe the distant galaxies moving further away from us. We can observe our planet moving towards the sun as it rotates the sun. We can observe it's reasonable to wipe our behind after we defecate. No faith is needed for any of this, only objective reasoning.

You say "what is over there is beyond our ability to know." 2,000 years ago people said the same thing about parts of our universe and how we came about. In short, they gave up searching and parted ways with reason and settled on an omnipotent being to explain things in simple terms.

"One man with courage is a majority." ~ Andrew Jackson

I am pretty much on the same page.

I find the unknowable exhilarating, gives my life the sense of "mystery" that something as delicate and glorious as "life" deserves. I have also had experiences that make me BELIEVE (not know) that there is a purely energetic aspect to our beings, and I BELIEVE that energy is an eternal part of the cosmos. Ashes to ashes, stardust to stardust. ;)

Love or fear? Choose again with every breath.

i believe

In ghosts. There is plenty of evidence they are real. We will find proof aliens exist before we find god or Jesus will have a second coming.

Homeland security statement: patriotism is now considered terrorism.
I love shared it with everyone I know. If anything they realize its not just a red and blue idiot running for reelection.

Humans have all of those

Humans have all of those traits due to millions of years of evolutionary strings being pulled on thought, correct? The gas clouds, stars and darkness throughout the universe played the most important role in creating little ole' you, right? For without those things, we would not be here.

I personally can't grasp the need for the term "God". I see everything and how it is. I understand that my my perspective on this is due to my specific place in space in time. 50,000+ years ago there was a far smaller need for a "God" figure to exist. The earth flourished and our ancestors and friends populated. The earth was a big happy family.

The Christian "God" did not give human beings love and hate. Human beings coined the term based off of emotional feelings. These "feelings" are only made possible due to reactionary processes that were set off eons ago. This is what we should be giving thanks to for our spot in the present moment. It doesn't take the Bible to know this nor any other religious text.

Personally I feel the term God has been misconstrued and the majority have this feeling inside that there is an actual being that picks and chooses religious ideas that humans have created. That "God" communicated with humans 2000 years ago.. then up until this day to make accurate revisions to various versions of the bible.

"One man with courage is a majority." ~ Andrew Jackson

"when they truly believe

"when they truly believe "God" is more believable as the fictitious Bible's portrayal, rather than simply the beautiful, complex interaction of the Universe as a whole."

Why is the Bible fictitious? Because you simply don't like it? You do realize it is the most well recorded and available book in all the ancient world. Why don't you sit down some time and compare how many ancient manuscripts existed for books such as Caesars Gallic Wars and then compare it to the amount of old manuscripts for the Bible. Do you think Caesar existed, if so why? Only a hand full of old copies of his book exist.The Bible has over 20,000 existing old Manuscripts.

And no two are quite the same.

Many translations, most for political reasons. Many books eliminated, females changed to males, names Anglicized... How many changes before the "immutable" Bible is considered an abridged version?
There are stone cave paintings all over the world depicting what looks like aliens. They are MUCH older than the Bible. Maybe I'd better worship the aliens?
The Bible is fictitious because MUCH of it was parable to begin with. Then it got handed down through oral histories before anyone wrote anything down. Then it got scattered into caves. Then it got re-written, a couple times, by "religious leaders" who were VERY much a part of politics back then.

Love or fear? Choose again with every breath.


"The Bible is fictitious because MUCH of it was parable to begin with. Then it got handed down through oral histories before anyone wrote anything down. Then it got scattered into caves. Then it got re-written, a couple times, by "religious leaders" who were VERY much a part of politics back then."

----The Dead Sea Scrolls contain the entire Old Testament except for one book, and the scrolls are dated between 350-250 BC. This dating puts the writing om the scrolls to around the dating of when the events and writing of the last book of The Old Testament were believed to be written. So no there was not some massive time lag and handed down oral tradition from the last book of the Bible actually happening to it being recorded. In Fact the scrolls which were a re-writing of the recently completed whole Old Testament were not made by "religious leaders" as you claim, but an outcast sect that moved away from the city.

Council of Nicea, and King James.

All revised for political gain. And they are STILL recovering scrolls, so how is it they have "all" of them in the Old Testament? And why is the Gospel of Thomas not in the King James version?

Love or fear? Choose again with every breath.

Yes they are still

Yes they are still discovering old scrolls and translating them, but the point is with the scrolls already discovered and translated thus far from the Dead Sea Scrolls they already have all of the Old Testament included within these scrolls except for one book. This is important because the oldest copy of the old Testament before the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered and dated around 800-900 AD. The Sea Scrolls pre-date them by 1000 years and still contain the same story and words, which proves that the Bible is the same and unchanged over time.

Yes, the majority of the

Yes, the majority of the Bible has stayed relatively the same over time. So has the koran, the vedas, the Qua'ran, and others. So has various spiritual teachings the remote African villages. Why does the Bible deserve the spotlight and not previous religions that teach the same morals while at the same time not bringing discrimination into the mix.

Truth of the matter is that we humans have never been in contact via direct communication with the forces that created the stars and ourselves. The making up of Gods was greatly popular before the last 1,000 years of advances in the human race took place. We're one of a million species, in one of a trillion galaxies... in an unknown fraction of the universe. Living a morally and fruitful life full of giving and thanks can be grasped without such old means.

The great Greek mythical Gods were once worshiped as Jesus Christ was.

"One man with courage is a majority." ~ Andrew Jackson