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Would you believe the God of the Bible if you knew the Bible were true?

Although I don't think this thread should be relegated to 'weird stuff', It's probably where it will end up. So, I've done it myself. :)

On to the question, though. I've heard many people say things like, "Well, if God is like THAT, then I don't want to worship Him anyway." My assertion is that a statement like this proves that one is not interested in truth, but only in what he/she would like to believe is truth.

Since I was a child, I have asked questions about everything. One of my math teachers used to laugh because I would never accept "just because" for an answer. I always had to know why something was the way it was. I despised being lied to about anything, whether it was Santa Claus or sex. I suppose that's why I ended up here.

I can't understand why others stop short of finding out the whys. I'm even more surprised that people in the 'liberty movement', don't want to dig deeper when confronted with uncomfortable ideas.

If you want truth, you will be willing to accept it regardless of how you have to change your life to conform to it. If it means that you cannot be a sodomite, you will change. If it means you cannot send your children to public school, you will change. If it means rejecting previous religious beliefs, you will change. And on and on the list could go.

God says in His Word, that if you seek you will find. But, the fact of the matter is, most people don't want truth very badly. They would rather stay comfortable and hope that what they believe is true. If you make up your mind that you will accept and embrace the truth, even if it is the God of the Bible, then you will find. As long as you say, "I'll accept truth if it is.....", you will never find it.

I made up my mind long ago that even if God WAS a brutal authoritarian, I would serve Him--if He was true. Even if He said things I didn't like, I would worship Him if He was really God. Of course, I found that He loves me and wants the best for me and every other human being. But, to find this, I had to be willing to believe truth whatever I found it to be.

Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man cometh unto the Father, but by me." He was (in the words of C.S. Lewis) either a Liar, a Lunatic, or the Lord Himself.

As many hours as I spend researching and reading, this life is not enough for me to understand--it's so short--a tiny dash between two dates on a tombstone. I want to know where I am going when I die---the "me" that is inside my body. If there is a God who will give me these answers, I want to know.

I have now found and can attest to you that Jesus Christ is TRUTH. He is God Almighty come down to make a way for us to God. But, I cannot desire truth for you--that is something only you can do. So, ask yourself today, "How important is truth to me?" And know this, liberty will never succeed without it.

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Thomas

The Gospel of Thomas does not seem to be like the rest. It is generally believed to be Gnostic since it ascribes things to being " secret" and shows Jesus as not answering direct questions about his divinity when every other Gospel clearly states that Jesus said he was the Son of God. Therefor it has been decided over time that it is not a true account of things since it is not corroborated by anything else. Even the secular historians of them time called Jesus a sorcerer. They were aware he did amazing things.

I'm not saying the Bible is

I'm not saying the Bible is fictitious in it's entirety. Simply in the arrogant nature they portray when trying to define how we got here, what our purpose is on Earth, and what happens to us when we die. The idea of Hell and Heaven seems very archaic. As time goes on the Christian God will fade into the distance as Athena and Zeus did. The good morals Jesus taught were thought before he came about. He had a revolutionary mind you could say but was he God himself? Not in the way he described it. You could argue Jesus had a revolutionary mind and had a strong urge to spread the "truth" as he saw it. For if he was born in an African tribe at the time, his "truth" would be completely different.

The idea of philosophic thought and religion was only made possible after the human brain tripled in size, specifically the neocortex part of the brain which is based off of the social complexity of our species. This allowed the brain to start reasoning and taking a guess at our role on Earth, not to mention the idea of a "God" figure at all.

How things unravel is a mystery, I think we can all agree on that. However, to take stabs in the dark at the most pondered about questions human beings have is a mistake.

In Caesar's case, he wasn't writing an objective history for Posterity. His books were advertisements for his greatness, so he could continue holding power. So take take that into consideration.

There are are billions of conversations going on right now about what recent events and what the actual 100% truth of the matter is. Every aspect of history is a weighting game. Usually more weight is given to the more contemporary account rather than the older ones. However, the more contemporary accounts are typically full of inaccurate and skewed by imperfect information. I won't even go into how gullible humans can be.. especially if you take into account our state of mind 2,000 years ago in relation to our understanding of the Earth/Universe.

"One man with courage is a majority." ~ Andrew Jackson

I doubt it.

"I'm not saying the Bible is fictitious in it's entirety. Simply in the arrogant nature they portray when trying to define how we got here, what our purpose is on Earth, and what happens to us when we die. The idea of Hell and Heaven seems very archaic. As time goes on the Christian God will fade into the distance as Athena and Zeus "

I doubt it, here we are 2,000 years since pagan Romans and Greeks worshiped them and yet you will be hard pressed to find a church of Zeus. The truth is as time has gone on the evidence has only gotten stronger for the Judea-Christian view of the world. Physics has come to agree with the Judeao-Christians on the fact of an actual beginning rather than some steady state theory or eternal universe. Interesting that only the Jews in the Ancient world had a concept of life as linear time and not some grand circle. You should read " The Gift of The Jews" by Thomas Cahill.

???

Could one believe in the God of the Bible while pondering the Bible's text literal meaning compared to the contextual meaning by the use of symbolism or exaggeration.

Is a form of worship necessary if one's propensity for seeking truth and understanding induces thoughts, speech and most importantly conduct exhibiting empathy, sympathy, generosity, respect, consideration, accountability, dependability, etc......

Is encouraging and motivating the above principles more or less important than reasoning the existence of God and authenticity of the Bible?

That seems far more

That seems far more reasonable in my opinion.

I would like to see the Christian reasoning behind why they believe Buddhist (who don't believe in God) yet are more compassionate and understanding of others' ideas. Also, can one honestly explain how one could think anyone, specifically Buddhist or Buddha himself are going to spend an eternity in a lake of fire?

"One man with courage is a majority." ~ Andrew Jackson

They would spend an eternity

They would spend an eternity on a lake of fire based on their life decisions the same way anyone else would. Jesus said you only come to the father through me, he did not say you would if you were a "nice person" or "understanding". That is the Christian reasoning as to why, because simply they are believing in a false God, namely themselves.

It is not "this or that."

I do not believe the Bible accurately portrays the Creator, but that does not mean I believe I am my Creator. I am smart enough to understand that whatever created me is beyond my comprehension. It does not need named, because no word could possibly do it justice. And I have ZERO fear of an eternal lake of fire, none at all.

Love or fear? Chose again with every breath.

People I know who are better than God.

My parents. I did not always honor them, but they would NEVER cast me into eternal hell for it.
I lied to them, but they just grounded me, they would NEVER cast me into eternal hell for it.
My husband. We got married young and I made a STUPID mistake. He did not even divorce me, he forgave me and kept our family together. He would NEVER cast me into eternal hell for it.
My neighbor. I have lusted after their stuff, especially the neighbor with the ATV. She does not even know, but I am pretty sure she would take me for a ride on it rather than cast me into eternal hell for it.
In fact, I can't think of anyone who would cast me into eternal hell for anything I have done, and I am not a saint. I try to be a good person, but I fail sometimes. I seem to find forgiveness among the people I wrong, though. It seems only the all loving, omnipotent, omniscient God has a thing for eternal revenge for fairly trivial things. Odd.

Love or fear? Chose again with every breath.

the concept of a pagan hell is from the devil, not God.

Hey there fishy--

First, I want to tell you that I love you. I love your heart, your honesty, your transparency, your desire to seek out truth.....I love that you question....and I love that you KNOW, deep deep down that the whole concept of "eternal torment" is not truth and actually is from THE LIAR himself, the devil.
This very issue of "etetnal torment" has been one of the biggest stumbling blocks of keeping people "turned off" from Christ. This is not the good news that Jesus preached...Jesus said He came to save the world, not to condemn the world!
Man has said--give your heart to Jesus or you will burn in hell.
All the verses that are quoted to defend a LITERAL hell are read by those who.have not been true "workmen of the word"....anyone can very easily read a concordance to find out the definitions of EVERY word in the bible --and will learn that all the places where "fire" is used to describe judgement is also used to.describe the fire that Jesus himself said he would BAPTIZE his own people with! It is a spiritual fire, a cleansing.fire---GODFIRE.
It is real simple...Love never fails.
Mercy triumphs over judgement.
Jesus is the good shepherd...and he will not lose one sheep, not one!
The earth is the Lord's, the fullness thereof, the world, and THEY who dwell therein!

Be blessed, precious fish of the Lord..

Jesus is the saviour of the WHOLE WORLD, "As in Adam all die, so too in Christ ALL shall be made alive." (ICor.15:22) All means all. The pagan 'hell' of literal fire & eternal torment is a lie and is SPIRITUAL TERRORISM. http://www.hopebeyondhell.net

Well, bless you, too!

My understanding of Jesus is based on what I have seen and heard in this world, and I do my very best to follow his example and advice, with no apologies for falling far short. My issue is not with Jesus or with God, it is with organized religion that fearmongers. My admiration and respect for what Jesus did is not at all reduced by what "Christian" churches say and do, but my respect for churches is non-existent. Now, that is not to say there are not good churches - if I lived in Flathead Valley I'd go to Chuck Baldwin's church - but my husband and I are both refugees from cults, and once burned, twice shy... and as you mentioned, no eternal burning at all.
My concept of God I don't bother trying to put into words much. I am part of the Universe, the Universe is beyond my comprehension. Whatever created me and the Universe is beyond being beyond my comprehension... a delightful mystery.

Love or fear? Chose again with every breath.

I've been thinking about this.

Yes, God does take sin more seriously than we as humans do. He also takes love a lot more seriously. Which of the aforementioned people would give themselves or their only son to pay for the crimes of a person who didn't give a snit about them? None, most likely.

Christians should not be warmongers! http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance87.html

No he has "revenge" as you

No he has "revenge" as you state it for only one thing, and that is not giving him the proper response due to a creator God. Do you ever stop to think why you " lust after" your neighbors stuff in the first place. Why would randomly assembled molecules " lust".

Do you ever stop to think?

I have never "created" but I did have a couple children. They have, over the years, called me everything but a white woman, yet I love them dearly. I forgave them for being twits, one of them is in a chronic state of "twitness" that breaks my heart, but I still don't want to see her hurt. If I, a merely mortal human mother, have nothing in me that would condemn my children for lack of respect, how is that consistent with a "loving Heavenly Father?" If I was created in my Creators image, then the God described in the Bible is not the Creator. I have so much more love and forgiveness in my heart than the "God" that demands worship... I don't even WANT my kids to worship me, I want them to be independent.
If an artist is not happy with his painting, should he burn it - forever?

Love or fear? Chose again with every breath.

Hardly...

people say things like, "Well, if God is like THAT, then I don't want to worship Him anyway." My assertion is that a statement like this proves that one is not interested in truth, but only in what he/she would like to believe is truth.

You've got the script flipped.
A person who rejects god on the basis of his actions/creed is interested in the truth. The truth is they've looked at the 'facts' and they've rendered a judgement on the vicious, small, cruel God of the more radical literalist Christian interpretations of the bible: he's a bastard.

Why would anyone waste their time worshiping a deity they deem to be amorale at best, and immorale at worst? Because he's going to send me to hell? No, screw that.

Would you go fight a war you didn't agree with simply because the government would imprison you if you didn't do as they willed? No, screw that.

Would you vote for a politician who was a scumbag simply because he would bring the most pork back to your district? No.

Would you support the financial bailout even if you knew you would lose your job if the banks went under? No.

Its not about that. Its about what's right.
If I don't think the god you believe in is moral, I will never bend a knee or utter a prayer to him.

So, ask yourself today, "How important is truth to me?" And know this, liberty will never succeed without it.

Yes you're correct. And the truth that's essential for us all to understand is grasp is this: God is irrelevant to the struggle for liberty.

You fight for it for your reasons; I fight for it for mine. At the end of the day we both want a society where I can't impose my "radical atheistic humanist bullshit" on you and force your children to learn math or whatever, and I wan't a society where gay people can call their relationship with their partner whatever they want, people don't go to prison for recreational drug use, religious people don't come to my door and bother me on the weekends, and my money is not used for the wanton killing of people who tan much more easily than I ever could.

YOU need to acknowledge the truth; we don't need to believe in the same mumbojumbo to want the freedom to coexist peacefully. Lets move on to more important things.

You still have it wrong

"The truth is they've looked at the 'facts' and they've rendered a judgement on the vicious, small, cruel God of the more radical literalist Christian interpretations of the bible: he's a bastard. "

Based on what objective morals can you render God a "bastard". Do you have his knowledge of why he did what he did? Do you know his exact thought? Better yet how can you even define any behavior as bad or good beyond merely yourself without an objective standard?

bas·tard Noun A person born

bas·tard
Noun
A person born of parents not married to each other.

Show me gods mum, and his dad, and a wedding certificate and I'll recant.

how can you even define any behavior as bad or good beyond merely yourself without an objective standard?

Let us pretend for a second, for the sake of argument, that I am indeed incapable of rendering an objective opinion.
Allow me to render instead for you, a subjective one.

If your god hates gay people to the point where he will banish them to a lake of fire, he less just than a god who does not.
If your god commands thou shalt kill and hate those who do not believe in him, he less just than a god who does not.
If your god smites innocent children to punish others (see the story of moses), he less just than a god who does not.

I could go on, but I'm sure you get the point.
I cannot tell you, with any certainty, where on the plane of morality the tiny cruel god worshiped by some 'christians' lurks, but I can tell you this much: He dwells some ways south of where you'd expect to come across an all loving just diety; of that much I am sure.

Is murdering babies bad?

God did that. A couple times. He pretty much brags about being a bastard. "For I, the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the inequities of the father upon the son." Say what? Why does the son deserve that? What a bastard!

Love or fear? Chose again with every breath.

He did 2 things in the

He did 2 things in the beginning, create everything, then create humans. So how do we respond to this, we disobey him. I would say we are the bastards. God's Game, God's Rules.

Created them, then cast them out of Eden

and condemned all of mankind to pay for Adam and Eve's sin. Because he loves us. It is not God's game, it is man's game. Men created a nasty god as a tool to fearmonger and be tyrants to other men.

Love or fear? Chose again with every breath.

I have enough of my own sin to worry about without paying

for Adam's rebellion.

Christians should not be warmongers! http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance87.html

LOL...

...true that! =/

Crazy that a "god" that can

Crazy that a "god" that can create an entire universe can't control his temper!

Crazy that a human can walk

Crazy that a human can walk amongst God and know him, yet still want to betray.

You compare religious people coming to your door to the murder

of innocents????

I don't want the government defining marriage, arresting people for what they put into their bodies, or killing brown people. But, you sound like you'd like the government to dictate that I cannot come to your door on the weekends without going to jail? YOU are a hypocrite.

All I asked was if you knew God created you would you be willing to grant Him authority in your life. You and all your kind apparently would say no. Well, more power to ya. I would rather not be enemies with the ONE who is responsible for my next heartbeat. I would rather know why He made me and what He requires of me. I love Him and He loves me. He loves you too, but you're so busy spitting in His face, you'll never know it.

Christians should not be warmongers! http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance87.html

Read more carefully.

I did no such thing.

But, you sound like you'd like the government to dictate that I cannot come to your door on the weekends without going to jail? YOU are a hypocrite.

If I had a posted sign on my land saying no soliciting/sermonizing/yodeling, it would indeed be my sincerest hope that local law enforcement would pounce upon you the moment you dared violate the sanctity of my porch.

He loves you too, but you're so busy spitting in His face, you'll never know it.

You expect me to expectorate without any provocation?
Madame, you wound me.
I clearly stated "If I don't think the god you believe in is moral, I will never bend a knee or utter a prayer to him." I never said whether I believed your god was immoral, amorale, or otherwise; how could I when you never formally introduced us?

Unless you have reason to believe that the god you worship is the "vicious, small, cruel God of the more radical literalist Christian interpretations of the bible" of whom I spoke and speak so poorly, then I likely am not talking about 'your' god.

At anyrate, your god really wasn't the issue at hand.
The issue, is this highly ironic small-minded statement:

My assertion is that a statement like this proves that one is not interested in truth, but only in what he/she would like to believe is truth.

I posted to make you think about how utterly stupid you were for committing that thought to the page.

You do not KNOW anything about God.

You BELIEVE things. Good for you. You undoubtedly have a relationship with the Universe and you have every right to define it for yourself. But confusing what you KNOW with what you BELIEVE is why people like you get called "fanatic."

Love or fear? Chose again with every breath.

How do you KNOW that I don't know anything about God?

.

Christians should not be warmongers! http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance87.html

Because I know the difference between knowledge and belief.

It has been entertaining, but I am tired of going in circles with you. You KNOW more about me than you do God, you have interacted with me. You BELIEVE in God, you have seen what you INTERPRET to be His communication with you, but it always comes down to your DECISION to believe that what is going on is God's work. People are free to decide what they believe, but people do not get to "decide" to know something. What color is my slipper? You do not know. You cannot know, unless I tell you. OK, it is purple. Now, do you believe I have purple slippers? Because I don't. I lied. Whether you believed me or not, and whether I said they were purple or not, has no effect on the color of my slippers. Why do you believe in God? Because someone told you stories about Him that you CHOOSE to believe.

Love or fear? Chose again with every breath.

OMG Thank you for saying that

My partner, of 2 years, and I will be closing on a house together this next week. We'd be married by now, if we could, but until then our buying the house together will be our "marriage". Being told I was "part of satan" at the age of six because I am gay is probably the reason I researched the roots of christianity for years and came to the natural conclusion that its all BULL. (like most others do when they actually research it)

Regardless of all that, what really gets me is the people on here who want the government out of THEIR lives but are perfectly fine with the government regulating mine. And frankly, it's insulting for someone to tell me that faith is required for liberty, when it's people "faith" that keeps me from marrying the man I love.

But then again I'm a sodomite, heathen, fag, sinner, demon-possessed "lost soul", who needs to be saved from my own actions! LOL

I said Truth is required for liberty.

.

Christians should not be warmongers! http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance87.html