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Would you believe the God of the Bible if you knew the Bible were true?

Although I don't think this thread should be relegated to 'weird stuff', It's probably where it will end up. So, I've done it myself. :)

On to the question, though. I've heard many people say things like, "Well, if God is like THAT, then I don't want to worship Him anyway." My assertion is that a statement like this proves that one is not interested in truth, but only in what he/she would like to believe is truth.

Since I was a child, I have asked questions about everything. One of my math teachers used to laugh because I would never accept "just because" for an answer. I always had to know why something was the way it was. I despised being lied to about anything, whether it was Santa Claus or sex. I suppose that's why I ended up here.

I can't understand why others stop short of finding out the whys. I'm even more surprised that people in the 'liberty movement', don't want to dig deeper when confronted with uncomfortable ideas.

If you want truth, you will be willing to accept it regardless of how you have to change your life to conform to it. If it means that you cannot be a sodomite, you will change. If it means you cannot send your children to public school, you will change. If it means rejecting previous religious beliefs, you will change. And on and on the list could go.

God says in His Word, that if you seek you will find. But, the fact of the matter is, most people don't want truth very badly. They would rather stay comfortable and hope that what they believe is true. If you make up your mind that you will accept and embrace the truth, even if it is the God of the Bible, then you will find. As long as you say, "I'll accept truth if it is.....", you will never find it.

I made up my mind long ago that even if God WAS a brutal authoritarian, I would serve Him--if He was true. Even if He said things I didn't like, I would worship Him if He was really God. Of course, I found that He loves me and wants the best for me and every other human being. But, to find this, I had to be willing to believe truth whatever I found it to be.

Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man cometh unto the Father, but by me." He was (in the words of C.S. Lewis) either a Liar, a Lunatic, or the Lord Himself.

As many hours as I spend researching and reading, this life is not enough for me to understand--it's so short--a tiny dash between two dates on a tombstone. I want to know where I am going when I die---the "me" that is inside my body. If there is a God who will give me these answers, I want to know.

I have now found and can attest to you that Jesus Christ is TRUTH. He is God Almighty come down to make a way for us to God. But, I cannot desire truth for you--that is something only you can do. So, ask yourself today, "How important is truth to me?" And know this, liberty will never succeed without it.

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Sometimes, I wonder if it's better to

scratch the idolatry clause and believe in the God that you chose to believe in. That way we can have seven billion unique ideas about God that could be collated into one (if you so desire), rather than a 'ONE SIZE FITS ALL' God that may at once be a loving trinitarian spirit and then a brutally tyrannical autocratic deity.

Think about it - it's not like all human people through all history were born into a culture that taught Christianity. There have been entire communities that lived in natural harmony (e.g. indigenous cultures), never having known of the Judeo-Christian beliefs and yet thrived.

I believe in the freedom to be what we choose to be.

No, not in and of my self!

I am far too depraved for that. (Just ask my hubby what I would be like but for the Grace of God!) But while I was yet a sinner, my Messiah paid the death penalty for my sins. I, too, tended to question anything told me. (Still do, even in church!) But I found Lewis was right: You can condemn Christ as a liar, or declare Him a madman, or give Him homage for being who He claimed to be. As much as men may not like it, there are too many logical reasons to believe his claim.

(BTW, to investigate the claims, you can start with Who Moved The Stone or The Case For Christ)

"Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern." ~~C.S. Lewis
Love won! Deliverance from Tyranny is on the way! Col. 2:13-15

Meta Hodos. The Next way after the direct way.

As the direct way has mostly been hidden from me, what method (meta = next + hodos = way) has priority.

About 2500 years ago the Greek Paramenides argued. "What cannot not be is real."

2300 years later Hegel argued that a thought thunk is a triad; I think, content and relationship to reality.

When does my thinking become real?

A lie intentionally contradicts reality.

An error simply means, think harder Homer.

Before this Moses taught that all ah reality is one.

How does one free themselves from obstacles that prevent accord with reality?

Each of us has an idea of God born though our personal experiences.

Being left free to experience reality in truth and fullness is a challenge to do so for others.

If all are seeking that which cannot not be we have something to share.

Free includes debt-free!

Whose version of Bible truth should I believe?

Many read the Bible and get very different views of God. Many believe in God but not the Christian Bible's version of God. Many live more in accordance with Bible teachings that don't read the Bible than many who proclaim the Bible as truth.

Many don't understand why some believe they are granted special entry into spiritual utopia while others, who have lived a more deserving life, are not because they didn't believe the same as those that do believe in exclusive special treatment by God according to their beliefs.

Many have experienced the same near-death experience from many different cultures, religions, beliefs and non-beliefs. It seems that some form of consciousness carries over after death but no one can say for sure that their religion or belief is the only one that counts.

Why would God hold you to having to make a decision now rather than after you die and meet him face to face?

Ask for a do-over, two out three. He's a loving God, surely he'll grant you that.

Don't get me wrong, I think it would be a better world if everyone believed in a higher-power that guides us to treat one another as we would have them treat us but what really matters beyond that, truthfully?

If I burn in hell and gnash my teeth for living my life doing that, what does that say about a God who says;"Thouest not good enough, move out of the Catholic priest's way that ask for forgiveness for his unspeakable sins and believes in me."?

What a sad statement...

"I made up my mind long ago that even if God WAS a brutal authoritarian, I would serve Him--if He was true."

Some would say he is looking back on religious history. What a sad statement though. I made up my mind long ago that I would never ever condone brutal authoritarianism. Why in the world would you obey God if he turned out to be one? That kind of blind worship is the cause of millions dying in religious wars crusades and inquisitions etc. And many who waged that evil were certain God existed and it was his will... Sigh!

If I found out God existed in the sense you describe but was a brutal authoritarian he would be my enemy period!

End The Fat
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Was Stalin a brutal authoritarian for killing people who did not

follow him? I would say that was clearly the case. So if the God you conjure up in your mind will burn you in hell for eternity for not worshiping him, doesn't that make him a brutal authoritarian, too.

God loves you so much that he created hell just in case you don't love him back. Does that make sense? I love my children, but would not punish them for eternity for not following my rules. I would say that makes me considerably more understanding, more forgiving, and moral than your God.

"Bend over and grab your ankles" should be etched in stone at the entrance to every government building and every government office.

If this is a response to my

If this is a response to my post above then you did not read the whole thing...

End The Fat
70 pounds lost and counting! Get in shape for the revolution!

Get Prepared!

Henry, And love is letting your children do whatever they want?

To understand God and His love, you can use the relationship between you and your children, but remember that there are familyr rules and regulations that must be enforced if you are a good parent and raise your children right. Would you let your child play on the highway? Would you let your child play with matches while you are filling your gas tank? How about playing on a bridge railroad track, or in a firing range at a gun club? Isn't that true liberty?? Well, here is where rules and discipline are important, as it is for God, and hence the 10 commandments.
As children of God, these are our rules to keep us on the path to righteousness. Is it right to steal, kill innocent people, bear false witness against your friend, commit adultery against your wife, and covet your neighbors goods? So you do not like the idea of hell? What would you do if one of your "children" wound up a killer, even to the degeree that you feared for you own life? And the worst of it all is if that child enjoyed killing and was evil to the core, because you gave him the greatest gift of life, a free will to do as he or she likes, but he or she refuses to do what is right? Do you think this child deserves to be with you and your family in your mansion, because you love him or her? No, you would make a special place for these folks who do not want to believe in you or obey you, hence the place for evildoers was created, or "hell". Do you have a better idea for those who are incorrigable???
Hell is common sense for those who know and understand and love God. BTW, God does not send people to hell, they choose to go there. If they would simply repent and beg for God's forgiveness, they will be in heaven with God. Our God is merciful, so merciful to those who show mercy and beg for forgiveness. Thanks be to our God!!!

I sure wouldn't condemn them to eternal damnation like your

God does to nonbelievers.

I'll match my parenting skills against any one of you. My wife and I viewed our role as parents to guide our daughters to discover how to manage their own lives. They knew from a very young age that they were in charge of their lives because we told them so, and we never needed punishment because they responded to positive reinforcement. You don't walk a 15 year old across the street, and you don't let a 2 year old cross by herself. The magic of good parenting is finding the line between protection and letting go, and making sure your children have the same values that you have and are equipped with the tools to live successful lives. You don't need to rebel if you aren't being repressed.

I don't need a lecture from someone who thinks they need to use authoritarian force to make children obey, and I don't need an imaginary god and his pedophile priests to provide me morals when I am perfectly capable of rational thinking and adopting values based on that logic.

And since you asked if I had a better idea than hell for incorrigible people, I do. Keep them from becoming incorrigible by parenting them with love and skill. Using force against children almost always backfires and gives the opposite result from what is desired.

You threat of eternal damnation speaks poorly of you and for the god that you have invented in your mind, or should I say was placed there through indoctrination. It's the same process that happens to those who believe in big government to rule their lives and take care of them, so I wonder what you are doing on a freedom oriented web site.

"Bend over and grab your ankles" should be etched in stone at the entrance to every government building and every government office.

If ultimate...

...Light, Love, Person, Reason is fundamental reality, and you insist on trying to rip yourself away from that, you can't expect to find anything but diminishing light, love, etc. That's not a result of God forcing something on you; it's a result of you trying to flee the fundamental reality, like Gollum shaking his fist at the sun and slinking away underground, into the caverns. This hell always existed in the sense that it is just what happens when you insist on leaving the Light behind -- you will find the outer darkness.

Christians disagree on what happens to those in the outer darkness:

- some say those in the outer darkness are hopelessly lost and that God hates them and wants them to be there

- some say those in the outer darkness are hopelessly lost despite God loving them and wanting them to return to Light and Love

- some say those in the outer darkness will just be put out of their misery (annihilated)

- some say those in the outer darkness will still be able to cry out, to respond to that longing in their heart to return to Light and Love and reality, and that the Father will welcome them home with open arms as the returning prodigal

The latter view is the one I hold ... all things will be reconciled through the peace of Christ, as everyone realizes the truth of the outer darkness and reality, and decides to return to that Love that will never stop seeking them.

Be careful not to assume that all Christians subscribe to the idea of God as some cosmic torturer Who just wants to see you burn for His glory. Although it isn't the predominant view, early church fathers such as Origen and Gregory of Nyssa (who were key in forming the early creeds and the accepted Biblical canon) upheld the view of all things being restored and reconciled (Colossians 1, etc.) Check out the 'Evangelical Universalist' by Gregory MacDonald if you're at all interested in hearing this other perspective, which affirms the core gospel but explores the philosophical and biblical support for the universalist view.

The idea of...

...a brutal, authoritarian God is nonsensical to me.

Why? Because that would mean God is not as good as He could potentially be. That would mean there is a higher standard or concept of goodness against which God Himself falls short. This undercuts the whole idea of God being infinitely above and beyond everything else in goodness, etc.

I read in the Scriptures that 'God is Love', that 'love never fails', that of 'faith, hope, love...the greatest of these is love.' This indeed fits with the definition of God as being greatest, infinite in goodness.

The problems people have when they try to square other Scriptures discussing God's judgments and wrath, with His Love and His goodness, I think stem from some misunderstandings:

- They fail to understand that trying to leave Light, Love, etc. will bring you into darkness, hate, etc. and that therefore the evils they try to blame God for are actually just negative repercussions of people freely choosing to attempt to abandon this source of Light and Love, with ripple effects of these choices spreading through all of the cosmos.

- They fail to understand that the events that unfold on the stage of this life are only a small piece of the whole reality, where the negative repercussions of human free will are then channeled and coralled by God to ultimately defeat them and reconcile all things in Creation to Himself, beyond this life -- while not violating human free will. He sets his own ripple effects of goodness in motion (the incarnation, etc.) to eventually draw all things back to Himself in due course.

- They fail to understand that Love does not equal lack of punishment; true Love is not telling my kid 'oh you naughty child, you just whacked your brother in the head with your firetruck; but come here, it's ok. Let me give you a big hug, and lets go to the store to buy you some more toys, ok?'. You can't reconcile things fully until the people who have done evil WANT to be reconciled. Unrepentance IS the unpardonable sin; you can't just paper over that with a hug and pretend nothing is remaining between you and God. God's consuming fire can and will remove all barriers between you and Him -- but only if you allow it. Until then, you will be in the outer darkness -- and you will not come out until you have paid the 'uttermost farthing' (true desire for reconciliation.)

Only three possibilities?

"He was (in the words of C.S. Lewis) either a Liar, a Lunatic, or the Lord Himself."

He could also have been misrepresented, after all, he didn't write the Bible.

But to answer your question, yes, I would believe if I knew, but don't hold your breath. I don't know anything to the extent I believe in it.

New Hampshire and Ecuador.

All 3 are a distraction.

There is absolutely no hard evidence outside the bible that supports a literal Jesus. There may have been an enlightened teacher roaming around reminding people of who they really are but the church story is all bullsheet. It is like a carnival. How do we fleece the people to make money over and over and over. They did a good job at it.


He is mentioned by both Jewish Historians and Roman Historians outside the Bible.


A search of the microfiche files of all the newspapers in the region during that time turns up zilch ;-)

Actually I wouldn't be surprised if some non-Biblical records of Jesus do exist and await our discovery. Some scholars had expressed doubt that even Pontius Pilate was a real figure but discoveries of some coins and a stone inscription bearing his name have provided at least some evidence that he existed.

New Hampshire and Ecuador.

At least JeHEsus chased out the moneychangers

That's more than Americans and Europeans seem willing to do.



Mark 2:17 is in your video.

"They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."

Ask your priest, pastor or whatever title your tax collector uses what this means. Listen whether they understand this:

"They that are whole" refers to people who understand they need to maintain an alkaline blood. Disease does not thrive in alkaline blood. No need for a physician.

"but sinners to repentance" refers to people who fall short of this knowledge and are acidic.

It is all about the blood. It is all about diet. It is all about balance. It is all about activating all those dormant brain cells so that you can know what and why you are here.

Don't pay someone to save you. Don't wait for someone else to save you. Save yourself.

Truth is hard.

Jesus Christ is hard truth.

Zen? The buddha? Soft truths.

Jesus Christ? Hard truth.

Chris Indeedski!

Daily Paul cured my abibliophobia.

Which Bible?

Old Testament Tanakh
(Jewish Bible)
(24 books)[6]
Books in bold are part of the Ketuvim Protestant
Old Testament
(39 books) Catholic
Old Testament
(46 books) Eastern Orthodox
Old Testament
(51 books) Original language

New Testament Just the generally accepted books or including the Gospels of Thomas and Judas?

Which language: Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek

Which Translation?

Believe what you like; but you have your work cut out for you.

I find truths in all of them.

I find truths in all of them. Man is not perfect. Read them all seek and you shall find.

I have been told I ask too

I have been told I ask too many questions by more than one person. Sometimes I think about and wonder what the earth will be like in 1 million years, or 500 million years and whether humans will still be around. Alas, I already accept that some things are going to simply remain unknown to me; I doubt I will find any way to access some sort of "akashic field" or anything like that which may or may not exist, during my life time. Better to focus on what you can know and not what is, for all intents and purposes, 99.99% likely to be curently unknowable.

To climb the mountain, you must believe you can.

Phxarcher87's picture

Lets feed trolls with the fruit of knowledge

Like some of my personal convicted hero's do.

-Ron Paul

-Tom Woods

-Andrew Neapolitano

-Lew Rockwell

Faith will always be a predominant part of the rEVOLution!!!!!

James Madison

I want to know the truth

but the truth is I'll never know, in life, what the truth is.
The Bible was written by man, edited by man and is a product of man.
I would like to think it is the truth, rather than just believe everyone just stops existing after death but there is no more proof one way or the other.

The problem with many religious groups is their insistence on converting everyone to their beliefs. If they can't, they want laws that will do so.

Would you believe the truth if it completely contradicted your beliefs? Like maybe we all just stop existing, like before we were born.
You would need absolute proof, right?

I wouldn't give up that easy.

You are hardwired to know but it takes effort. It is universally known that man is only using a small percentage of his brain. Why is that? Natural law is the answer. Everything in the Universe has a contrast. Light and darkness, cold and warm, wet and dry, ugly and beautiful, good and evil, small brain BIG brain.

There would be no such thing as a big brain if there wasn't a small brain, you see. So the secret lies in us figuring out how to activate all those dormant brain cells in our upper, bigger brain. The big brain of higher conciousness will show you what you want to know. It is natural law.

I suggest the author George W. Carey to help you understand how to get started. His books have many keys to the right doors.

I am far from pulling it off, believe me, the gates are very narrow. At least I have started. Anyone can. Don't give up so easy.

Google "Begs the question"

Ĵīɣȩ Ɖåđşŏń

"Fully half the quotations found on the internet are either mis-attributed, or outright fabrications." - Abraham Lincoln

Begging the question (Latin

Begging the question (Latin petitio principii, "assuming the initial point") is a type of informal fallacy in which an implicit premise would directly entail the conclusion.

My take...

I've spent a lot of time throughout my life thinking about the issues of god, morality, spirituality, religion, etc. and here is what I've come away with:

At the very heart of things there are two forces at work in the world, love and fear (fear as opposed to hate, as I find hate to be a byproduct of fear). How does love manifest itself in our world? Patience, compassion, empathy, acceptance. And fear? Impatience, anger, pettiness, a desire to control. God IS love, not in the sense that god is some human-like entity floating above us in "heaven" who is capable of loving us, but the FORCE of love itself is god. It is the law of the universe; it is in us and all around us all the time.

Humans are not perfect. Our purpose in this world is to learn to have faith in love and overcome fear. We feel fear because we desire assurances for our material being. Our material being is the physical self we tend to identify with as opposed to the spiritual self who is one with all through love. We fear changes and things we do not understand because these things make us confront uncertainty.

In their hearts a vast majority of people connect with the force of love to some degree. They believe in right and wrong and they genuinely desire to be a good person. However, in this desire they may at times allow fear to creep in without even realizing it. We are ALL guilty of this, I'm certainly no exception. So, even though we may have the best of intentions, we insist upon others accepting our understanding of what defines a "good person". We are afraid that others may get it wrong. Our answer to this is to try to appeal to some higher authority to IMPOSE our version of truth on others. This "higher authority" may be government, a church and its religious leaders, a "god" with imperfect human characteristics, or some combination of any of these.

This imposition of virtue may work in a material sense in that others will go through the motions of complying with the "rules" established by the "higher authority", but this may be in appearance only and tells us nothing of what one holds as truth in their soul. Do they not commit murder because they believe the lives of others have worth and are sacred, or because they fear what punishment they might receive materially or spiritually? Love is patient and seeks to blossom in the hearts of all. This can only be done from within the individual and is best nurtured by showing them love; accepting them as they are, imperfections and all, with patience and understanding. This is how to be a witness to them and, by sharing love with them, one is sharing the gospel, the good news that love is the natural order of things and that there is a supreme cosmic force out there that will ALWAYS love them.

This is not to say that one can go through life harming others without consequences, but these consequences are not a punishment FROM god the way many commonly understand it today. Rather, the negative actions carried out by an individual will bring about the natural law of cause and effect, or karma (think Newton's Laws). In the same way that the negative energy of harmful actions reverberates through time and space, so does the positive energy of loving actions. It is really from ourselves that "punishment" occurs. WE create the negative energy that comes back to bite us just as WE have the ability to absolves ourselves of this karma by atoning through positive action carried out with love in our heart.

I don't expect to change your beliefs by sharing this, but I hope it might answer your question as to why someone, such as myself, might say "If the god of the bible is true, I would rather burn in hell for eternity than worship him." You can respond to me by citing scripture if you like, but I must warn you, it won't change my understanding of the truth. I see the vein of truth that is love in the bible, but I also see the poison of man's fear and this is why I cannot accept it as the unadulterated truth. I'm not going to argue faith with anyone, as that is about as useful as banging one's head against a wall, but if you, or anyone else, has any questions about what I believe or would like me to elaborate any on an idea I've shared, please feel free to ask.

I'm reaching up and reaching out.
I'm reaching for the random or what ever will bewilder me.
And following our will and wind we may just go where no one's been.
We'll ride the spiral to the end and may just go where no one's been.
Spiral out.

limited search

You say you searched for truth? I call bullshit.
I was raised Catholic and converted to Penecostal before I actually started to question what I was following.

A little common sense and god quickly becomes a sadistic, vain deity on a power trip... bi-polar at best, and that pretty much cancels out any unconditional love he professes to have.

Besides your premise 'if the Bible was true', moots the argument. it's not. it's a verbal hand-me-down from Hebrew text and they're verbal hand-me-downs from Sumerian cuneiform tablets... and the differences are night and day.

If religion works for you - great. but you're missing out on the implications of a 'round planet'.

You seem willing to except whatever ridiculousness the Bible would dump on you and NOT willing to actually look outside of the Bible where you haven't even scratched the scratch of information available. Religion is a great crutch, but eventually you will atrophy.

- seek your uncomfortable thoughts, they are lessons which need learning. -