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Would you believe the God of the Bible if you knew the Bible were true?

Although I don't think this thread should be relegated to 'weird stuff', It's probably where it will end up. So, I've done it myself. :)

On to the question, though. I've heard many people say things like, "Well, if God is like THAT, then I don't want to worship Him anyway." My assertion is that a statement like this proves that one is not interested in truth, but only in what he/she would like to believe is truth.

Since I was a child, I have asked questions about everything. One of my math teachers used to laugh because I would never accept "just because" for an answer. I always had to know why something was the way it was. I despised being lied to about anything, whether it was Santa Claus or sex. I suppose that's why I ended up here.

I can't understand why others stop short of finding out the whys. I'm even more surprised that people in the 'liberty movement', don't want to dig deeper when confronted with uncomfortable ideas.

If you want truth, you will be willing to accept it regardless of how you have to change your life to conform to it. If it means that you cannot be a sodomite, you will change. If it means you cannot send your children to public school, you will change. If it means rejecting previous religious beliefs, you will change. And on and on the list could go.

God says in His Word, that if you seek you will find. But, the fact of the matter is, most people don't want truth very badly. They would rather stay comfortable and hope that what they believe is true. If you make up your mind that you will accept and embrace the truth, even if it is the God of the Bible, then you will find. As long as you say, "I'll accept truth if it is.....", you will never find it.

I made up my mind long ago that even if God WAS a brutal authoritarian, I would serve Him--if He was true. Even if He said things I didn't like, I would worship Him if He was really God. Of course, I found that He loves me and wants the best for me and every other human being. But, to find this, I had to be willing to believe truth whatever I found it to be.

Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man cometh unto the Father, but by me." He was (in the words of C.S. Lewis) either a Liar, a Lunatic, or the Lord Himself.

As many hours as I spend researching and reading, this life is not enough for me to understand--it's so short--a tiny dash between two dates on a tombstone. I want to know where I am going when I die---the "me" that is inside my body. If there is a God who will give me these answers, I want to know.

I have now found and can attest to you that Jesus Christ is TRUTH. He is God Almighty come down to make a way for us to God. But, I cannot desire truth for you--that is something only you can do. So, ask yourself today, "How important is truth to me?" And know this, liberty will never succeed without it.

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The Dead Sea scrolls Matched the Old Testament to one that was written 1000 years later by 95 percent of the same text, so I think it is fair to say the Jews were keeping a very accurate detail of what was most important to them. The Bible can be trusted because it has already been proven be accurate and unchanged over extremely long spans of time.

Slow down.

It is good that you questioned what you were following! But you need to realize your anger should be directed at your interpreters, not the book. The book contains some of the most beautiful truths of natural law known to man. It is only seen through a cloudy window because of the doctrine of vicarious salvation. Summed up as, "you must believe this church or you will never be saved" kind of bullsheet.

There is not one church in the age of pisces that is not in violation of natural law. You can take that to the bank. So don't write everything off is my message. Check out the work of Santos Bonacci and pay attention to the books he references. Read them and then make up your mind. Because you were once immersed in all the lies, you will learn much quicker, believe me.

Sad answer to that question is

No they would not bow the knee. I have talked to literally hundreds of people and a bunch say no.

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...in the end...'every knee shall bow, every tongue confess.' Point of debate being whether this is all voluntary through Love's drawing or involving some eternal, involuntary torture. I would think ultimately all voluntary (all things reconciled through the peace of Christ), because bowing down on the outside does not necessarily mean bowing down on the inside, which would then mean not everything is truly bowing down. :)

It is ALL about the inside.

And voluntary because of natural law. You know, because of modern times we tend to believe that people were not debating the same things all through history that we debate at present.

I see that 'every knee shall bow, every tongue shall confess' statement being written by someone who argued that man would one day universally admit that the power to save themselves was always inside their own self. Not by being those people who claimed to do wonderful works, in the name of someone else, to only be told "I never knew you".

It is ALL about inside you. Only you can save yourself. Waiting for a savior to come from the outside is not the message of the bible.

There is truth...

...in what you say, in that the creature can't be reconciled to the Creator unless there is inward desire on the part of creature to actually be reconciled to that Light and Love instead of inwardly shaking their fist at it. That's where the faith of the individual is key. (And, of course, the flip side of that is that it's the Creator Who is first constantly seeking us and calling us and drawing us back -- the whole election/predestination side of things. Not one or the other, but both, in sort of a call-and-response fashion.)

It would be the utmost folly, though, for the individual creature to think itself equal to the Prime Mover, the Creator, the I AM that I AM. We did always exist in a sense as ideas in that original Mind, but until the Word progressed from that Mind to bring the ideas into reality as working sub-minds -- sub-creators, as J.R.R Tolkien liked to say :) -- we couldn't really be called existing, functioning, individual persons. The I AM that I AM, the Alpha and Omega, will always be greater than all of us who are creatures and had a beginning in time.

To go 'Christian Platonist' on you, we are not the Forms. We are what has been generated by the Forms, and we will continue to grow to become closer and closer to the ideal person we were created to be. This is kind of the idea, I think, in Revelation, where the individual believer receives from his heavenly Father a 'white stone' with a new name written on it, that nobody except the Father knows. That represents that ideal person we were meant to be, yet distinct and particular compared to every other individual. We are not all One energy field with no distinction between us. As we grow, we do not become less individual, disappearing into some pantheistic sea; we become more individual, like a distinct flower in a cosmic garden.

As we grow, we will become more like the Creator -- but we will never BE the Creator. And so we are utterly dependent on the Creator, not only for our existence in the first place, but also for being drawn back to becoming those ideal persons we are meant to be, when we go astray in our wobbling, toddler-like steps.

I don't mean to sound utterly dogmatic on all these particular details of how this works -- just my meager attempt to dump my imperfect thoughts into words. :)

I was hoping you'd get a chance to read my post.

God Bless.

Christians should not be warmongers! http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance87.html


im just a nobody

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All Praise And Glory To His Name!

I am not a Calvanist for those of you who say so .....I am a Christian!
I am of NO denomination.
I belong to Christ alone and follow Him, and NOT the abominable doctrines of man.

Contrary to what some here may say, when you take your last breath, or when Christ comes on the last day, if you are not then saved, then you will remain in your sins and there will be no more hope for salvation, for "it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this the judgment" ~ Hebrews 9:27 ~

God tells us very clearly that He did not desire to save every living soul.
The evidence from within His Word about this is overwhelming.

From Genesis to Revelation is the story of God's salvation plan!

Here are just a few of the teachings of the Bible that very clearly show that God chooses those whom He will save and ONLY those whom He will save.

"All that the Father giveth Me will come to Me.."
NOT all men, but ALL that the Father hath given Me!

"No man can come unto me ( says Jesus ) unless the Father draws him"
Also "No man cometh to the Father but by me"

Only God can draw, and will draw someone to Himself.

When He says " I will draw ALL men unto myself" He is not saying that He will draw every single person on the face of the earth to Himself, but people from ALL nations! This verse has been so misunderstood and taught.

Here it is in one place ( among others ) saying that He is NOT giving this particular group of people ears to hear that they might believe and be saved:
Jesus said in Matthew 13 :13-15:

" Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esai'as, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

If God wanted to save these He speaks about, He would have done so.
He did not because they were not of His fold.
They were never chosen of God.

God has ALWAYS had a "remnant".....and just a remnant who are his throughout history, because that is His will.

Notice the emphasis on the word "I" in the verses below:

Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. ~ Ezekial 36:24-26 ~

This work in those He will save is ALL of God.

Once someone comes to where they know they are truly sinful, and now saved, they will see the hand of God was that which saved and nothing that they did...NOTHING!
All our works are as filthy rags in His sight.

Salvation is of the Lord ~ Jonah 2:9~

"Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He will save HIS people from their sins"
~ Matthew 1:21 ~

Not every living person, but ... He shall save HIS people from their sins!

"We love Him BECAUSE He first loved us" ~ 1 John 4:19 ~
That, is the reason why we love Him and serve Him.
He put that love in us.
He chose us ( John 15:16 ) and not the other way around!

Jesus also said in the garden " I pray NOT for the world, but for those whom Thou gavest Me" ~ John 17:9 ~

In Romans 9 we read that God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy and He will harden whom He will harden.

We also read in that same chapter: "Jacob I love and Esau have I hated."

Is there then unrighteousness with God? God forbid!

There are many, both unbelievers and so called believers alike who will not accept the truth that the entire salvation plan is entirely of God even before He created anything, that it was already put in place before the foundations of the world.

His creation of all things including time, are to fulfill His perfect plan and to have a people for Himself. God's will NEVER, EVER fails!

We who are the chosen of God are the "planting of God"

He planted us, not we ourselves! How foolish would that be to think that we planted ourselves and watered ourselves and grew according to our works!

All who are not His are thorns and weeds to be plucked up by the root and burned!

Nobody who becomes saved had anything to do to get themselves saved.
It is all the work of God, and to deny that is to deny the very Word of God and the perfect sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

If God's will ( as some say ) was to have every person who ever lived to be saved, then He failed miserably and His will cannot be done and therefore is not omnipotent as He claims in His Word.

But this is not the case. God's will is ALWAYS carried out according to His purpose and at His perfect time and fulfilled to the very letter.

One of the best proofs of this truth is the person named Lazarus whom we read about in John chapter 11.

Lazarus was in dead and buried in the grave for 4 days when Jesus came to that place in Bethany.
Jesus called him out of the grave "Lazarus, come forth".

Did Lazarus decide that he would come out of the grave?

Of course not, he was dead.

Jesus had to give him ears to hear and commanded him to come out.
It was ALL the work of the very Word of God.
As with Lazarus, so too with all who become saved.

We are all DEAD in our sins, and only those whom God calls out of their grave of sins will come to Him and believe.
All others will remain in their grave of sins and many of those believing just as the Pharisees that all is well with their souls.

Jesus said "You will be hated of all men, they hated Me and therefore they will also hate you"
That is why when a true child of God speaks the truth, he is hated but rejoices in that so did they to the prophets of old also.

You can down-vote this a zillion times, it matters not a whit to me, and you may refute this all you will and name call, but it will never change the truth of God's perfect salvation plan that is soon to be completely fulfilled.

Believe what you will, but if you deny the perfect work of salvation by God alone, and want to believe that YOU did something to help get yourself saved, then you are attempting to contribute in part to your salvation and thereby remain in your sins.

It is my sincere desire that many here who are unsure, will call upon the name of the Lord for salvation, and those that do, will come to know that this magnificent work was all of the mercy and love of God.

Speaking the Truth, in Love, I am now done with this matter


" In Thee O Lord do I put my trust " ~ Psalm 31:1~

those who are crucified (have died) w/ Christ

....these are those that are even NOW (while living on earth) are being judged. The judgement seat of Christ is found within their heart and is the MERCY SEAT.
Those whose lives (old self) are dead and their NEW LIFE is hidden with Christ in God are judged NOT guilty, they are new creations & suffer no condemnation, as they daily live in the Spirit and walk by the Spirit, for they walk in His light and have continuous fellowship with Him.

Those that have not been quickened by the Holy Spirit will also be judged (their works). Those who die IN their sins will go through a period of time (Greek 'Aion'--an age) of purifying fire, the Greek calls it aionian chastening (a pruning--a lopping off of all that corrupts)...this purifying fire is not a literal fire but a spiritual fire and will eventually go out....for when the wood (old adamic fleshly nature) is consumed the fire will have nothing else to burn...it is then that a person in outer darkness will be finally ABLE to receive and respond to the love of God.

Lamentations chpt.3 :31 " The Lord will not cast off forever"
It is because of His mercies that we are not consumed.
It is GOD'S WILL that ALL shall be saved...."Who WILL have ALL men to be saved and to come unto a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus; who gave himself a ransom for ALL, to be testified in DUE TIME (1 Timothy 2:4-6 emphasis mine).
Notice the words ....*will* and *all*?
God WILLS to have ALL MEN saved.
The Greek word for 'will' is found in Thayer's concordance meaning "to be RESOLVED, be determined".
The Greek word for 'all' is found in Strong's Concordance #G3956 and means " all, the whole; all, any.every, the whole".
Thayer's gives the meaning of "all" as "individually, each, EVERYONE, all things".
Vine's concordance defines "all" as "all, every, everyone (man), everything".

There is no more mistaking what the words ALL & WILL actually mean.
God has made it PLAIN to see that He will save ALL....not a few, not just the *remnant* but ALL!

As I have said to you before Holbrook, you are a sincere believer and I sense that you truly.do.desire to know truth in your innermost being and I pray that you will seek to see if these things be so (as a wise noble Berean).

The good news is that ALL will be saved in due time, each man in their own order.

His peace and grace to you.

Jesus is the saviour of the WHOLE WORLD, "As in Adam all die, so too in Christ ALL shall be made alive." (ICor.15:22) All means all. The pagan 'hell' of literal fire & eternal torment is a lie and is SPIRITUAL TERRORISM. http://www.hopebeyondhell.net

I probably shouldn't have called you on that. You are my

brother or sister in Christ and we will have disagreements in the body until we all get to heaven and get 'straightened out'. :) I have many close friends and family who are Calvinist in doctrine, but they are still out preaching the gospel and trying to win sinners to Jesus Christ. I have studied a long time and now know that Calvinism is untrue, and I don't want people to have a false view of God presented to them. However, it doesn't seem to matter to most people anyway--they just don't want God telling them what is right and wrong period. Sad, but true.

God Bless you.

Christians should not be warmongers! http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance87.html

GoodSamaritan's picture

He provided plenty of references

so what is your interpretation of them if they are not indicating salvation for only a subset of humanity chosen by God for redemption?

Ron Paul - Honorary Founding Father

One mistake...

...I think can creep in here is to assume that because God in the short term is blessing some and punishing others that this is what He has these groups locked into: always and only vessels of mercy, or always and only vessels of wrath.

All through the Bible we see examples of what seems to be final judgment of nations (and individuals), but later on see where those nations (and individuals) are restored from exile. One of the most startling of these descriptions is in Ezekiel 16, where God describes how He will restore Sodom from exile when He restores Jerusalem, and will make them a daughter of Jerusalem, when the covenant is fulfilled. But Sodom was utterly annihilated, its inhabitants destroyed -- so where are these exiles coming from? I think this points to a restoration in the New Jerusalem, where Revelation says the tree of life is present, 'for the healing of the nations.' God does not punish just for the sake of punishing. He punishes for the sake of eventually reconciling all things in heaven or on earth to Him, through the peace made through Christ (Colossians 1).

When we read verses saying things like God loves Jacob but hates Esau, why does this have to be read as Him FOREVER hating Esau? In the same book of Ezekiel, by the way, God also mentions the restoration of Esau's descendants, the Edomites. I think 'hate' here is misunderstood as a permanent turning away or casting aside. I view it instead as a short-term episode of turning away, in order to work out things in the flow of history.

"it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this the judgment" ~ Hebrews 9:27 ~
As an Evangelical Christian Universalist, I agree completely with this verse, of course. The difference is, the universalist asks...'and then what?' Again, looking at Scripture, it's clear that the pattern is: death, judgment, then reconciliation and restoration of all things.

It's also very clear in Romans 5 where it describes the gift of life from Christ coming to the SAME 'all men' that are being described as perishing under the other man, Adam. This doesn't mean, oh, just some of every nation is perishing under Adam. It means all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, there are none righteous, etc. This same 'all men' is who the gift of Christ is given to. It's up to the them to receive it; but there's no denying that it was intended for all men to receive it, from this passage.

Finally, it's impossible to strip Love from God. There is no action that God takes which destroys His own nature, and since He is Love, he can't NOT love anybody in the final sense. This is where 'hate Esau' is misunderstood. It is not 'hate' as in non-love; it is 'hate' as in setting aside for a time.

GoodSamaritan's picture

An even bigger mistake

is cherry-picking verses to reach a predetermined conclusion. I can provide dozens of verses that show the Greek term, aionion, is used in identical manner when speaking of either eternal life or eternal death. Here are just two:

"I give them eternal [aionion] life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand." John 10:28

"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal [aionion] fire prepared for the devil and his angels." Matthew 25:41

To reject eternal punishment would necessitate rejecting eternal life.

Ron Paul - Honorary Founding Father

Great point...

...and it would indeed seem to undercut the ultimate hope we have if the life was not eternal.

The response I have seen on this point is:

- 'aionion' is not specifying duration, but in which age they occur
- so you have the 'death of the age to come' and the 'life of the age to come'
- both occur in the age to come
- you have to look then to other passages to understand the nature and context of the death vs the life rather than trying to squeeze more out of 'aionion' than that word alone is saying
- so then we find lots of other verses that explicitly couple the life to come with not perishing (John 10:28, John 3:16, Luke 13:3-5, etc.) ... can't be plucked out of the Father's hand, etc.
- we also find Pauline statements of victory over death (where is thy victory/sting)
- Revelation speaks of Death itself being cast into hell -- clear separation from the life to come
- on the other hand, I am having difficulty finding verses that the death to come is final, barring repentance and restoration
- and then Colossians 1 says all things in heaven and earth will be reconciled through Christ, peace having been established through Him; so an eternal pocket of non-reconciliation would not jive with this

Just as a final note, I know I sound pretty dogmatic here, and I am probably 99% convinced that this is correct. I am open and willing to have this hope for the gospel to be completely triumphant knocked out of me if it is untrue, though.

Oh...something else...
Even if it is insisted on 'aionion' meaning eternal, could it not be thought of in some other ways:

- unrepentance is unpardonable, and therefore carries with it an eternal sentence while it remains
- you can't come out of the outer darkness while being still defiant, and so in that state, it WILL be eternal
- but Christ still holds the keys to hell (Revelation), and don't think it says He locked the door and threw away the key
- if someone could truly repent in the outer darkness, why could He not commute and pardon the eternal sentence just as He has already done with you and I and Saul of Tarsus?
- if it does not violate His justice for Him to show mercy to us on this side of death, and to commute the eternal sentence, why would it arbitrarily violate His justice if He showed the same mercy towards (true) repentance on the other side of death?
- furthermore, is not our old nature permanently destroyed? In that sense there is also an eternal consuming of the old nature, which had been separated from our new natures -- the corruptible into the incorruptible

So I don't think the truth of Colossians 1 saying all the cosmos will be reconciled is contradicted, whichever way you want to interpret 'aionion'. God still has the keys to hell and can do as He will in showing justice and mercy, always driven by His Love

Nice rant but you are a hypocrite.

You show that the bible has hidden meanings but then proceed to quote a bunch more that supposedly means what it says. Noone needs special eyes or ears to understand what you quoted if it is read literally.

You might want to consider that what you quote as being easily understood actually means something else. You can't have it both ways.

SteveMT's picture

Agree with that 100%. God is absolute, no nuances in meaning.

God should equal transparency, and that transparency should be clear for everyone to see and judge for themselves in the same way. In other words, a level playing field for all who seek to know the mind of God and a path to living a life inspired by that knowledge.

If I believed it were true I'd be terrified.

Throughout, Yahwe is depicted as petulant, capricious, vindictive, jealous, and cruel.

dynamite anthrax supreme court white house tea party jihad
West of 89
a novel of another america

terrified and loved.

I fear of the LORD GOD more then man.
man playing god. elite's agenda? (ex. chemtrails, gmo's, money (finances), government, mass manipulation, drones, gun control, fluoride, etc.
Slow and painful death vs a quick death?
But in truth GOD loves us people.
GOD died on the cross is the reason why.

the gubbermint loves us too!

the gubbermint loves us too! you just have to have faith!!

different. Between GOD vs gubbermint.

GOD aka GOOD or devil aka evil or satan? You choose. No other way. gubbermint also consist of mens. why put faith in mens instead of GOD?

whats the difference?

whats the difference?

difference is

Absolute truth vs lies of all lies, the master of lies. relative truth but still a lie. like a snake. sneaky but has a poison venom.

Do you have an english translation to that?

Whats the difference between the two?

Only translation.

GOD never change. No changes. Same as before. All-POWERFUL and HOLY. Other then GOD, there's no other gods.

Here is why.

The bible is one big allegory. The god of the old testament is not the Creator. The old testament, among a few other things, is symbolic of man, you, me, everyone who has lived and ever will live, operating in the lower conciousness. Or using the cerebellum to be specific. Our animal brain. The one that lusts, murders etc. That is why the OT comes across as so violent. It is man.

The new testament shows man operating in the higher conscious or cerebrum. The sacred oils have ascended up the spine and the pineal gland is activated. That is what the character Jesus meant whenever he talked about the single eye or lamp. He is referring to the pineal gland. The bible is about you and your inner workings mostly. The four gospels are a trip around the zodiac from different starting points by the way.

The reason the Roman Empire created the church was to control this information and people. They spun everything into literal characters. Most everyone still believes the lie even today. Rome was mudering people for saying what I said above, not for believing in "Jesus" the literal.

So I can fully understand why you doubt the "official story" of Rome. It is good that you do. You are much further ahead than anyone who goes to church.

I am tired of the "control" excuse for organized Reigion ...

Has anyone ever thought this arguement through? If you take the teachings of Jesus and His church seriously, it becomes obvious that state control, tyranny, and dictatorship is in direct opposition to the Christian Faith. The church teaches that the one who exalts himself on earth will be humbled, and the humble will be exalted in Heaven. How about love your neighbor as yourself,or give alms to the poor, or go to your room and pray in private rather than pray for all to see. Or thou shalt not kill, commit adultery, covet your neighbors goods or wife, and thou shalt not slander or bear false witness against thy neighbor? A nation that promotes these teachings is trying to control the people? hmmmmm, this doesn't sound like evil leaders of Rome to me. And if it was "Rome's" plan to use Christianity to control their people, why did they kill them for the first 300 years and martyr them with horrible deaths??? This soudns more like the attacks of Satan to squelch a growing truth that cannot be killed by killing the human body, because the soul lives on, and Christians know this truth and will continue to promote it.
And if you look at the benefits of the "organized church" (BTW, would you prefer a disorganized church o religion?) there are thousands of hospitals, orphanges, schools, soup kitchen's, thrift stores, all organized by the Catholic and Protestant churches that are truly helping the plight of man on earth. How many hospitals have the Atheist's started? How many Muslim hospitals are there? God says you will know the true believers by their fruit. Please use this for your judgement of "organized" religion before you condemn it.
Organization of the Ron Paul movement, where the leaderrs were able to accomplish this feat, is what made it more successful, and the disorganization snd internal dissent is what has weakened our movement.

SteveMT's picture

Yes, you should think this through even further than you have.

What would the elites want? Answer: to keep the slaves occupied and distracted from their tyranny. While the little people are pre-occupied with following the teachings of Christ (or by multiple other proclivities), these elites will be free to do what they will. They might even arrange a few catastrophes/false flags to create even more distractions for God's people to deal with. The people will be busy with these efforts while the government is free to do all sorts of mischief.

Isn't this what we have now? We have a distracted/asleep public busy with other things whether they be religious or not and a government with their own agenda of waring, whoring, stealing, power- and fear-mongering, and just having some real good fun.

Another thought

Pretty sure that the secular state does not want people to refer to their ancient textbooks for instructions about how to live.

The state wants to replace religion with itself. The state creates the narrative we live by. The state judges those it considers disobedient and punishes the wicked with death. The state requires blood sacrifice. The state wants its cult members preoccupied with material abundance - not spiritual growth.

To paraphrase Hegel, the state is the march of God on earth.

Well, it is more advantageous

Well, it is more advantageous for wicked to assimilate and then direct a truth movement than to fight it (look at the Ron Paul movement). I believe that's where Catholicism came in. It's easier to fool people with an almost-truth than with an outright lie.

For how Catholicism and most of Christianity differ with scripture on how to get to heaven (the most important issue) see my previous comment.


Christians should not be warmongers! http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance87.html