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Would you believe the God of the Bible if you knew the Bible were true?

Although I don't think this thread should be relegated to 'weird stuff', It's probably where it will end up. So, I've done it myself. :)

On to the question, though. I've heard many people say things like, "Well, if God is like THAT, then I don't want to worship Him anyway." My assertion is that a statement like this proves that one is not interested in truth, but only in what he/she would like to believe is truth.

Since I was a child, I have asked questions about everything. One of my math teachers used to laugh because I would never accept "just because" for an answer. I always had to know why something was the way it was. I despised being lied to about anything, whether it was Santa Claus or sex. I suppose that's why I ended up here.

I can't understand why others stop short of finding out the whys. I'm even more surprised that people in the 'liberty movement', don't want to dig deeper when confronted with uncomfortable ideas.

If you want truth, you will be willing to accept it regardless of how you have to change your life to conform to it. If it means that you cannot be a sodomite, you will change. If it means you cannot send your children to public school, you will change. If it means rejecting previous religious beliefs, you will change. And on and on the list could go.

God says in His Word, that if you seek you will find. But, the fact of the matter is, most people don't want truth very badly. They would rather stay comfortable and hope that what they believe is true. If you make up your mind that you will accept and embrace the truth, even if it is the God of the Bible, then you will find. As long as you say, "I'll accept truth if it is.....", you will never find it.

I made up my mind long ago that even if God WAS a brutal authoritarian, I would serve Him--if He was true. Even if He said things I didn't like, I would worship Him if He was really God. Of course, I found that He loves me and wants the best for me and every other human being. But, to find this, I had to be willing to believe truth whatever I found it to be.

Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man cometh unto the Father, but by me." He was (in the words of C.S. Lewis) either a Liar, a Lunatic, or the Lord Himself.

As many hours as I spend researching and reading, this life is not enough for me to understand--it's so short--a tiny dash between two dates on a tombstone. I want to know where I am going when I die---the "me" that is inside my body. If there is a God who will give me these answers, I want to know.

I have now found and can attest to you that Jesus Christ is TRUTH. He is God Almighty come down to make a way for us to God. But, I cannot desire truth for you--that is something only you can do. So, ask yourself today, "How important is truth to me?" And know this, liberty will never succeed without it.

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you serious?

you deny the truth given to you?

The zodiac in a catholic church.

What I can't understand is how there are so many people here that claim to be liberty minded but have no knowledge on how badly the church has lied to them for centuries. You are not free if you are scared to question Rome. Someone with a set of balls please ask your priest why the zodiac is in this church.

SteveMT's picture

The zodiac predates the church by 4,000 years, a very long time.

Appreciated reading your link. You just opened up a very big can of worms here that I very much appreciate. Actually, you just hit the mother lode of religious lies, mysticism, and hypocrisy! Christianity loves the number 12. Read all about this special zodiac number 12. [small portion of this link below]

At what age did Jesus first appear in public?

Twelve years of age was Jesus when He first appears in public (Luke 2:42) and utters His first recorded words (see number 1).
Legions of Angels

Twelve legions of angels mark the perfection of angelic powers (Matthew 26:53).
Additional commentary on the Biblical Meaning of 12 *

The number twelve is found 187 times total in the Bible, 22 of which are in the book of Revelation.

The significance of the number 12 is that it represents divine authority and appointment, as well as governmental foundation and perfection, and shows completeness. Twelve is also used as a signature of Israel. Truth is symbolized by 144, or 12 x 12.

There are twelve divisions of heaven called the Mazzaroth, which God uses for signs and seasons. The testimony of the stars is numerically in harmony with the Bible: "The heavens declare the glory of God and the firmament shows His handiwork" (Psalms 19:1).

There were 12 sons of Jacob, whose families formed the 12 tribes of Israel with 12 princes; there were also 12 princes of Ishmael.
more at:

You bet it predates.

I hope your can of worms turns out as fruitful as mine. Yeah, for thousands of years this truth of natural law and mans relationship with the universe was well understood. They understood that man is constructed to save himself. Vicarious salvation is a joke and it has made a lot of people filthy rich. But that was the sign of the times. The Sun has been in Pisces for the past 2,000 years or so. Pisces is ruled by Jupiter...JewPeter...amazing.

That rule is over though. Not a coincidence that the pope stepped down as Jupiter is being replaced by Uranus and Saturn as the Sun shifts further into Aquarius. As above, so below. It is natural law, he had no choice. It will be very interesting to see how this unfolds. I'll bet the next pope isn't wearing that funny piscian hat anymore.

The lovely number 12. 12 apostles, 12 tribes of Israel, 24, 72, 144...all very important astrological numbers that appear in the bible in one form or another.

Astrology is the holy science and it is biblical. I'm finally free!

Time for a song!

When the moon is in the seventh house
And Jupiter aligns with Mars
Then peace will guide the planets
And love will steer the stars
This is the dawning of the age of Aquarius,
The age of Aquarius
Aquarius, Aquarius
Harmony and understanding
Sympathy and trust abounding
No more falsehoods or derision
Golden living dreams of visions.

Sorry, my husband and I were watching 40 Year Old Virgin last night and I just couldn't resist once the opportunity presented itself. :)

In all seriousness though, I'm it total agreement.

I'm reaching up and reaching out.
I'm reaching for the random or what ever will bewilder me.
And following our will and wind we may just go where no one's been.
We'll ride the spiral to the end and may just go where no one's been.
Spiral out.

Yeah I'm serious.

The book is mostly an allegory. It has wonderful truths but it is mostly an allegory.

Well, maybe that's why the Bible says the fear of the Lord

is the beginning of wisdom. When we realize what we have to face, we start looking for truth in how to deal with it. Then we find that God gave Himself for us and that He loves us and wants a relationship with us.

Christians should not be warmongers!

The known, the unknown, and the unknowable.

I am content with the knowledge that some things are not knowable, this side of the grave. Most people are trained from birth to want answers to everything, and if the correct answer is not available (as in the case with all unknowable things) they will make up an answer and cling to it with "religious fervor."
You won't like this, but I urge you to stick it out to the end. You say you are interested in truth, well... Truth is not always pretty. I am not saying this guy is right, I am saying he offers another perspective, as valid as yours in my opinion.
Whoever and whatever Jesus was has been nearly obscured by the religions that have sprung up against his direct admonishment.

Love or fear? Choose again with every breath.

But, I, and millions of others throughout history contend that

we can know. The Bible says we can know--and it claims to be the words of God. One of us must be wrong.

I will watch your video (if it's not merely a childish attack), but I can tell you right now that it will not change my mind. I know the truth. --Kinda like no one will ever convince me that child sex abuse is right. Someone could give me scientific evidence and personal testimony,etc. etc. but I know the truth and will never be convinced otherwise.

Have you ever read about Richard Wurmbrand? The communist government tried to "recondition" him to not believe in Jesus Christ. All the tortures they heaped upon him could not bring him to deny what he knew was true.

Christians should not be warmongers!

I am pretty serious about accurate definitions of words

Faith is a wonderful thing, but it is not knowledge.

Love or fear? Choose again with every breath.

In my study of linguistics, I learned that whomever controls

your language can control you. It definitely rings true in this situation. Most people nowadays confuse faith with credulity. The bible doesn't define it this way.

Like I've said before, I have faith the sun will rise tomorrow. As humans our lives are so intertwined with faith, we cannot escape it. God doesn't refer to faith as some sort of mystical "force", but as simply believing what He says. The bible contains an accurate historical record. If I hear you give your life story, I can choose to disbelieve it if I want, but it doesn't change the facts. If I'm doubtful, I can check out your story and see whether or not it matches up. But, once I get to know you, I will come to KNOW your story is true. Am I making any sense? :)

Christians should not be warmongers!

SteveMT's picture

You can know, but only for yourself. No one else.

I am happy for you that you have steadfast beliefs. However, other people have just as steadfast beliefs, so having such beliefs doesn't prove anything. Hitler and Chairman Mao had steadfast beliefs.

The question is will anyone's beliefs hold up to the scrutiny and critiquing by others? Will the people holding such initial beliefs modify them to adapt to an inescapable proof brought by another? Alternatively, will these people remain dogmatic and resist this evidence that some modifying of their belief system is necessary? Does the Almighty want us question our religious beliefs to arrive at a better understanding of what this existence is all about?

Wow! Let's take that first


Let's take that first statement:

I've heard many people say things like, "Well, if God is like THAT, then I don't want to worship Him anyway." My assertion is that a statement like this proves that one is not interested in truth, but only in what he/she would like to believe is truth.

Your logic progression gets off to a shaky start. The person who says, "if God is like that, I won't worship him," is, on the face of it dealing in truth. He's saying that he understands in both a personal and historic way the viscous, vindictive, capricious actions of God as documented in the Old Testament. He's dealing in truth. Any follower of God who does not admit he's following a viscous, vindictive, capricious God has probably not read and taken to heart the Old Testament and can in NO WAY say he's dealing with TRUTH.

God is like that. He got so peeved at his own creation that he drowned them all. He slayed Job's children over a betting man's stand off with the Devil. He killed Egyptian babies to make a point to a Pharaoh, who wanted to acquiesce long before but got his heart supernaturally hardened. He commanded the Israelites to kill every man, woman, and child.

If you're going to follow God, in any sort of adult way, you've got to come to terms with an amoral God -- one that is outside whatever little definitions you happen to think are moral.

Be all Christ-like and bring the orphans into your home. And what if they molest your biological children? What if you come to understand that following Christ, might mean your children will spend years shitting themselves and years coming to trust your -- and the God you've taught them? What you know that God pretty damn well as a result of your biblical studies and your experiences? What if you say, screw it. What if you say, "If this is ultimate truth, I'm not interested and won't serve?"

Are you not dealing in TRUTH?

Of course you are. In fact, you're dealing with the Truth of God up close and personal. You're saying, "God, I'm pretty sure you exit, and I think you're crap."

What then? How then shall we live? Only a childish relationship with God does not contend. And, my gut tells me that God isn't so much interested in those who just follow the edicts they thing they see in scripture or their preacher. I'm thinking, God actually wants real relationship. He wants you to tell him you think this is crap or that is immoral. He created us for a reason. And it's not about being yes-sayers.

Contend with your God. Give him a real relationship; it's what he created you for.

Quit shirking your duty by hiding behind some all-or-nothing, black-and-white paradigm. The big TRUTH is that you were created to be in a real relationship --reciprocal -- with God. He wants to hear from you, to be open to change from you.

We have a real relationship. And He invites me to prove Him.

I may not understand everything God does, but I trust Him. He's proven Himself trustworthy many times over.

Christians should not be warmongers!

my question is: what god would ever have human traits?

why would a god ever be angry, jealous, etc.?

-these are obviously human traits given to him as part of a story made up by man.

Or maybe you're looking at it backwards. Perhaps, we have

the traits of God. hmmm?

Christians should not be warmongers!

Definitely looking at it backwards.

Gen 1:26 Then God said, "Now let's make humans who will be like us. They will rule over all the fish in the sea and the birds in the air. They will rule over all the large animals and all the little things that crawl on the earth."
Gen 1:27 So God created humans in his own image. He created them to be like himself. He created them male and female.
Gen 1:28 God blessed them and said to them, "Have many children. Fill the earth and take control of it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the air. Rule over every living thing that moves on the earth."

wait lol so the same god that

wait lol so the same god that created the universe, the planet, you and me etc. is the same god that asks like a child and gets mad, jealous, and makes creatures who go to hell to be tortured if they don't praise him?? Yeah that all sounds logical lol

BTW the bible shouldn't be used as proof that the *bible* is true

My OP was not necessarily trying to prove that Jesus is the

TRUTH. I want people to look at themselves and ask honestly if they desire truth (whatever it is) with all their being.

I can tell you that He is the TRUTH, but you must see for yourself if I am correct. Instead you mock and revile. I love you and everyone at the DP, and I want all of you to know the TRUTH.

Christians should not be warmongers!

No. These are not smart questions you are asking.

This stuff is obvious.

That was a good way

to shame religion using its own morality. Another way is to simply reject the combo that dwells in a religious mind - a mixure of blind belief in miracles and longing for truth via reason.

Not my intention

I wished to shame the notion that to accept the truth of something equates, first, to accepting it as righteous and worthy of devotion, and second to accepting that that truth is static.

As an analogy outside of religion, I believe according to my limited understanding, that money, more than anything else, controls which candidates voters will pull the lever for and elect. I think this is true. I do not accept that money should buy elections; I do not find this truth righteous and worthy of devotion. Something that's true, as I understand it, and for which I wish to have no part.

One can accept that God, even the God represented in the Bible, is true, and yet judge Him wanting and not deserving of devotion. Satan falls into this category. He certainly knows the actual fact of God and God's character and has chosen not to follow.

The second part, accepting that the God laid out in any one part of the Bible, is static and must be approached from some point in time in the past...or you're not a believer. So I'm wondering about the folks on the scene when God changed his mind and changed the compact between God and man -- time and time again. God did this over and over. He changed. Every change was based on man. Every time, God responded to man -- usually A MAN (at least in the storytelling of these sea-changes of man's relationship with God.)

Apparently, God didn't know how horrendous it was to drown mankind until he saw the horror through the eyes of the one guy he'd decided was righteous -- Noah. (Weird how Noah's wife, his daughters, his son-in-laws, were not righteous in God's eyes -- the Bible clearly states that God ONLY found Noah worthy -- yet God saved the unrighteous because they were attached to Noah. Hardly personal. More cultish -- attach yourself to the right guy, the guy God likes, and you'll be saved, too.) God then promises he'll never do that again. He doesn't say that mankind will never become so corrupt again, will never piss him off as much again; he says he'll never respond by drowning them all.

God changes.

Could you even say that God's morality evolves? If morality is only meaningful in terms of interactions with other moral agents, would it even be possible for God to define morality all by himself in the un-created nothingness? Does not the very notion of morality only have meaning once God creates a moral being to interact with? Is the definition then not defined by the relationship between God and man? Does God not have as much to learn as Man?

How then would the notion that Man is supposed to simply bow down, believe, accept whatever his little group or book asserts is god amount to anything?

We are created to contend, to be in relationship with, God. We are changed by the relationship; God is changed by the relationship.

Those who say to God, "From what I see in this passage of the Bible, I'm thinking you're way off. I believe you did that and I think you were wrong," are more fully participating in a relationship with God than those who think "believing" means repeating yes-God, you-go-God. That's not a relationship. That's boring; that's yes-man and no semblance of relationship. If you haven't read the Bible, you probably don't know that God never really likes those folks. He's never that down with the "true believers." In fact, he picks rebels, murders, and liars. When he finally gets around to sending his "sperm" to earth, that Son spends a great deal of his words castigating the "true believers."

Be careful. Don't confuse those folks who contend with God, who accuse, who call him out, with those folks who have bowed out of the relationship and just say, "Ye, God."

When I scream at God, when I curse him -- I believe. I believe that I'm actually relating to God, that I make a difference God cares about. When someone refuses to, when they pawn off God's failures as their own -- or worse, Satan's -- they're refusing to be a full participant in the relationship God created us for.

It seems...

that you also have a blind belief in no miracles, and so anything which was presented to your senses as a miracle would probably be chalked up to being an illusion. Because you've already decided it's impossible as your axiomatic philosophy.

This sums it up for me...

"Liberty tastes sweetest to those who fight for it, and most bitter to those who work to deny it!"


this post is the biggest

this post is the biggest contradiction..

"i always search for truth and ask why"

but on god

"i just know and i know it because i know it"

Truth is love.

GOD is love. GOD is GOOD. What part don't you get?

i feel as though people in

i feel as though people in the liberty movement often suspend their core values and reasoning skills when it comes to religion/god

We value truth no matter how uncomfortable or inconvenient it may be.
But yet when evidence, or reasonable arguments are presented that challenge Christianity I immediately see comments like this one. It is simply ignorant to say something like that as though it were fact.

look around you. especially gubbermint?

are you save in this world? you rather have a false sense of security from a mere human beings? not perfect. GOD is PERFECT. GOD love his children. So he call out to spend time with him and let him guide us. You reject that? If then judgement comes?

America no longer has freedom until they know how there free and prosperous comes from.


The time has come, it is here, and it is now. I will not stop what is coming upon you; upon this land you call America, the land and home of the free. The free? You once may have called your nation free, but with freedom comes a price, a high price, one you took advantage of…

Now you will pay the price of your neglect upon your so called “Land of the Free”. My hand has come down. The wrath has started, and I have warned, once the wrath is upon you, it will not be stopped. It has started, it is now, and the wrath and judgment is now.

You sit back in your comfy chairs at home, while the rest of the world suffers, bleeds, dies. You look from afar, saying that is so sad, that is too bad, those poor people. What you have seen, this is now upon you, for never will a country that was so deep in riches, in freedom, in prosperity ever be again. You took advantage of my mercy; you took advantage of me, ignoring the truth I gave forth. Have I not pleaded and begged for you to listen, to come to me?

You scoffers, you defiled ones, YES YOU, I AM SPEAKING TO YOU!

The likes of what you have never known and experienced are upon you!

The ones that know me, my true and faithful servants, you will be saved, safe. Those that took, take the easier route, you will be the ones to see the fruit of destruction come upon you.






You are insane

You are insane

Ultimately... just have to decide what resonates with you as the Truth and hope you're right.

Do you believe that Person, Love, Reason, etc. is fundamental reality -- more fundamental than the physical universe? If you believe this (theism, Platonism, etc.), then there is actually ultimate meaning and purpose in everything. Some things actually are better than others; the Mona Lisa is actually better than the Holocaust. Liberty is actually better than tyranny...not just in some puny, temporary, illusory sense, but in fundamental, eternal actuality.

Or do you believe that the physical universe (or some quantum mechanical system) is fundamental reality? If you believe this (nihilism, atheism, etc.), there is actually no meaning or purpose in anything, and person, love, reason is all a temporary illusion, a passing cloud that looked like something that it really wasn't. Nothing is actually better or worse than anything else...just a rearrangement of matter and energy. The Mona Lisa is in the end no better or worse than the Holocaust. Just different arrangements of grey matter in brains that deterministically resulted in rearrangements of other dead stuff in different ways. In the end, it's all gone, as if it never existed.

Which resonates with you? If you are going to accept something axiomatic, it seems it would have to be one of these two basic choices. The only way you will ever know for sure that one of these is true, is if the former idea is true. Otherwise you won't be around to find out. I believe we will all find ourselves face to face with the former idea being true, in the end.