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The Real Numbers of The Wealthy vs. the Middle Class and the Poor



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Very well put. "Taking back"

Very well put.

"Taking back" the wealth by illegitimate means makes us no better than them.

This is because of the monetary system we have

When you inflate a currency, the people that control the printing presses use the new money to enrich themselves and their friends. This has been going on for 100 years, and now it is to the point where a very small group of people control a huge percentage of the money supply.

This means that a small group of people can create tremendous distortion within a macro-economic scale. Hypothetical : If I had unlimited billions and I decided to invest that in one geographic location, things might get built, people will get jobs. But there is only so much housing I need. Once I have enough, I need to do something else to create jobs. If I keep building just to create jobs, I'll cause a glut of buildings, just to keep people employed. I'm also wasting resources because eventually there are more buildings than people.

This has already happened in China. So, what will they screw up next?

Except that this kind of

Except that this kind of skewed distribution is from 1980 onwards, not the past 100 years.

China's issues are so numerous and complicated. One of their problems is preciely that they have a free market...they have no patent or copyright laws. They allow piracy and fraud to go unchecked. As a result, goods are cheap, which is good for the economy. But there is a future problem as innovation in China (and India) is nonexistant. Who wants to innovate there when his product will just be ripped off?

When the US and Europe decline, and Asia no longer has a place to steal from, what will their economy be based around?

Plan for eliminating the national debt in 10-20 years:

Overview: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2010/09/12/my-plan-for-reducin...

Specific cuts; defense spending: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2011/01/03/more-detailed-look-a

No Place For Intellectual Property In Libertarian Philosophy

Take it from an esteemed patent attorney (irony) Stephan Kinsella:


"Who wants to innovate there when his product will just be ripped off?"

Innovators will innovate... even without government protectionism; which is all IP boils down to.

But kinsellas theory is not

But kinsellas theory is not strongly supported by evidence...currently, innovation finds roots in areas that protect it.

Kinsella does make some good points. However, he is not acknowledging that innovation costs are getting higher as the fruit on the tree disappears.

Moreover, it is not just that china has weak IP. They have weak copyright, weak fraud litigation, etc. There are no barriers to stealing what others have spent money to invent.

Plan for eliminating the national debt in 10-20 years:

Overview: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2010/09/12/my-plan-for-reducin...

Specific cuts; defense spending: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2011/01/03/more-detailed-look-a

Are you smarter than a 5th grader?

Anyone who makes an argument that compares people's perceptions (what people, exactly?) of national economic data vs. reality and then concludes based solely on the disparity that the reality needs to be changed has a whole in his head. Ever seen are you smarter than a 5th grader? Anyone who can't see through that ridiculous argument clearly isn't.

Apparently you are not....

Smarter than a fifth grader because the point was to highlight how asleep we are as a nation. It also points out that most don't even realize how out of touch with reality they are. Did ya miss the point?

...and what's the point of pointing that out to people?

Most people don't know how the internal combustion engine or the internet works.

I think the poster of this video had a much different angle than you're supposing.

I think the authors video is worthless without making some conclusion at the end. It seemed he was hinting at something but didn't have the intectual honesty to state his hypothesis.

BTW - I think magic faires make my car go and Al Gore keeps the internet working...the fact that you can chart my ignorant response to the real definitions of these things tells us nothing. Other than maybe to say I'm dumb and you know better than me :)

It's completely valid to compare

people's perceptions of how wealth is distributed with how it actually is. Are you saying that the frustrations of the underprivileged don't matter to you and they shouldn't matter to anyone else? That's the ridiculous argument if ever I've heard one. It borders on justifying the banks to continue their quest to own everything.

I'm sorry if you don't see a problem with 1% or even .001% owning such vast wealth that they're are completely untouchable in any social, legal or moral way. For me, it's not ok. Not because it's not fair but because it wasn't accumulated fairly.

Why are so many so quick to leave CEOs out of the competition loop that they place everyone else in when promoting the free market?

Yes. of course. that's exactly what I'm saying...

...I hate poor people and I think they don't matter. I mean wasn't that completely obvious from my comment?

C'mon the author didn't even talk about corporatism or how the wealth was made legally or illegally and neiether did I.

That was sort of my point, the author isn't really getting to any real facts about these root causes. He seems to just be saying the balance of wage distirbution is unfair and people need to make it more fair Tbut in a way that we don't refer to as "Socialism".

BTW - I agree that the poor and middle class are the ones suffering most from inflation, crony capitalism and all these gubbermint programs that were supposedly designed to help them. I epathize with the fact that most of us are suffering because we were convinced to support (or passively sit by) and allow leviathan to grow to the monstrosity it has become today. Hopefully we can help others see through the class warfare and fairness rhetoric to understand sound econmics and liberty.

My comment was to someone else

They only made two statements, AFAIK.

That's it's errant to concern ourselves with what the perception of inequality is and that it's even worse to act on that perception being wrong.

This is a fallacy. How people feel is the first step toward their learning that something is wrong. It is also a very good gauge of how skewed things really are because the bell curve is actually rather close in it's assessment. (i.e. there will be people that under and over estimate but on average it will balance)

All I've been trying to do in this entire thread is get past the calls of this being a socialist act (showing this graph) so we can get to the agreement that inequality IS a problem. Once there, we can fix it with the free market, not government red tape. But here we are, once again, arguing that it's socialist to even mention the inequality problem. That's bogus.

Inequality IS NOT a problem...

History can give many examples of solitary individuals whose contributions far outweigh the collective average of everyone else's output (think Henry Ford's cheap automobile assembly line, Rockefeller reducing gas prices from 30cents to 5cents a gallon, James J. Hill and his efficient (and eventually free) train service, Bill Gates and the cheap, user friendly PC operating system...etc). I'm not trying to downplay the important role that everyone else has in helping these men achieve their dream. They all work hard and should have the benefits of a free market so they can achieve their highest marginal utility. But I don't see these leaders of industry making a 1000X more then the average worker as something that is a "problem" because its "inequal". I completely agree its inequal...so what? The president of the the USA earns over $400,000.00 a year and gets shuttled around in his own personal jet for the rest of his life. That seems inequal to me. America is all about STARTING OUT EQUAL its NOT about ending up equal. That's why I say this type of talk bothers me. This Eat the Rich, OWS mentality is incomplete and myopic. Yes, lets all focus on the criminality of unconstitutional federal actions that interfere with our chances at prosperity and give special privileges to the connected class at our expense...THAT IS TOTALLY WRONG. But insinuating that "rich" necessarily means there is a problem is not intellectually honest. There will always be inequality. There is no Utopia. The best we can do to ensure maximum wealth for the maximum number of people is to make sure theft and violence are dealt with swiftly so we can regain free market that benefits us all.

Why are so many so quick to

Why are so many so quick to leave CEOs out of the competition loop that they place everyone else in when promoting the free market?

Same reason Obama supporters disregard his civil liberties transgressions: they've bought into the brand, hook, line, and sinker.


I bet it would be interesting

I bet it would be interesting to see the top 1% broken down like that. I bet it would turn out that most of the wealth of 300 million people is held by about 3,000 people. Which would be the .001% Which is too small to really conceive. Less than one person per football stadium of people hold more wealth than the rest of the people in that football stadium.

the Devaluation of the Dollar

...has had a MAJOR effect on all of us. For the 1% ultra-elites, it's had NO effect, not even for the upper 10%, but the middle class and down have felt the devaluation of the dollar.

Granted, we made less money in 1976, but that's the year my son was born, and I can tell you the cost of a loaf of bread was $.35 and the average home in America was $40,000.

That's right. Does that give you a clue how much our Federal Reserve has been printing? The problem with inflation is that our wages have not kept up.

As soon as we get wage increases, then, our taxes go up, and the cost of goods & services go up. The problem with the FEDERAL RESERVE is that they have kept pinching the Middle/Lower Classes to keep us in our proverbial place, if you will.

We can NEVER get ahead, period, end of story, until we put an end to what is going on in Washington D.C. And, the thing that is really, really scary according to Dr. Paul and others, is that the Federal Reserve, along with its partner in crime, the politicians, have printed such a phenomenal amount of money that THEY CAN'T EVEN BEGIN TO FATHOM HOW MUCH THEY'VE PRINTED, NOR WHAT THE ULTIMATE EFFECT WILL BE.

We are nearing the end of this gigantic debt bubble. "Fasten your seatbelts, it's going to be a bumpy ride!"

...has had a MAJOR effect on

...has had a MAJOR effect on all of us. For the 1% ultra-elites, it's had NO effect, not even for the upper 10%, but the middle class and down have felt the devaluation of the dollar.


Correct and that has nothing to do with capitalism

Or free markets
It's a result of the central planning of the fed and it's cronyism

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Actually, it might...

Actually, it might... http://c4ss.org/content/16961

It's interventionism and corporatism/fascism that causes this

As Mises points out government favors, subsidies and regulations that make large companies
protected monopolies creates this imbalance but those who unfortunately remain ignorant of this fact blame capitalism
Read Mises
The anti capitalist mentality or
Critique of interventionism

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one more thought

I have no real ambition to be in that 1% of wealth because I know that wealth does not bring happiness. :-) It would be interesting to see a happiness chart.

Ayn Rand had explained the

relationship between money and happiness.

If you apply rational standard to happiness (not a warm fuzzy feeling of constant love spread between countless universal neighbors), then money does reflect happiness provided it is earned by one's own abilities and effort.


IF these charts are accurate and IF you think it should be any different than it is.....

I have no idea if the rich are that much richer and what that might mean to them. I do FEEL like the chart is accurate for the mid-lower area because that is what I do have experience with.

Anyway, the problem isn't the government and the problem isn't corporations. The problem is the people. The government and corporations are just tools. It is the people behind them that are the real problem. The real problem is GREED. What inspires those lobbyists to get loopholes? GREED. What inspires laws that favor one over another? GREED. You might argue power, but power hungry is really greed.

Thus this chart is just a reflection of what our society is or at least what our society lets be. If it weren't for greed (and maybe fear?) that money would not accumulate in a few folks, it would be be distributed on its own without government interference. Giving is not promoted well in our society, maybe because we let the government take over that function.

And, IF the majority of that 1-10% got the money illegally or by unethical means why haven't we done anything about it? Again, this comes down to people.

The answer is simple...

We have no recourse. Your health insurance company has swindled you. You attempt to take them to court. The judge owns stock in XYZ Insurance. So do you really think the judge will cost himself $ and rule on the side of justice? Fat chance....

Have you seen Jamie Dimon or the ilk go to jail? Why might that be....

End this Corrupt System

Fight Back, End the FED, HOARD Bit Coins!



"We’ve moved beyond the Mises textbook. We’re running in the open market." - Erik Voorhees

I understand

why the rich at some point were killed and persecuted by the people because likely they deserved it because they used goverment to steal from people and oppress the people. I suppose that justification could be used now for this country and if people get mad and Shit hits the fan. we will thrown them on the barbeque and take their stuff.

When the bigs were deemed too big to fail

The decision was made to bail out the very rich with newly created fiat dollars, that spread the cost over the entire money supply. So it was in essence a wealth transfer, from everyone who had dollars, worked for dollars, saved dollars to the wealthiest who had over leveraged and were about to lose dollars. The bailouts were the biggest transfer of wealth from the many to the few in human history.

One word.....


Excellent thread, very

Excellent thread, very impressed by many thoughtful responses below. I would add this is the classic 'piece of the pie' video, this is go-to stuff for liberal/progressive arguments against free enterprise, against people like Ron Paul. This is the truly dangerous stuff because it is so effective in swaying the independents and independents decide elections. So tell your independent friends that this video doesn't say the poor and middle class have sharply lower standards of livings, i.e. they once had washing machines and now we're back to washboards, no.

What it also doesn't show unless you know what the numbers mean is that the pie itself grew at an incredible pace because of the risk-taking and ingenuity of capitalists in America's first 195 years and since about 1971 it has continued to expand through phony growth that won't last, through reckless monetary and fiscal policies.

The real enemy of poor and middle class prosperity has been stated elsewhere in the thread, economic interventionism and the inflation it brings.

10-15 million more voters need to believe in non-interventionism (liberty) at home and abroad to change America. Minds changed on Syria. Minds changing on privacy. "Printing money" is part of the dialogue. Win minds through focus, strategy.

Remember the reason the

Remember the reason the wealth is distributed so poorly is because our economic system favors the wealthy.This has nothing to do with capitalism and everything to do with fascism,corporatism and fractional reserve banking and the federal reserve system.Austrian economics proves exaclty what this video shows.The poor and lower class getting poorer and the wealthy getting richer.Do not confuse this with liberal,socialist or a tax the rich more agenda.This is a symptom of a diseased monetary system that is all.