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The pivotal point in the upward curve from bondage to liberty is spiritual faith

In response to the recent spate of anti-Christian, anti-faith and anti-semitic posts on this site:

"The world's great civilizations have progressed through this sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith; from spiritual faith to great courage; from courage to liberty; from liberty to abundance; from abundance to selfishness; from selfishness to complacency; from complacency to apathy; from apathy to dependence; from dependence back again into bondage." - Alexander Fraser Tytler

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ks7CU9lKej8&list=PL1C889ED74C...

Liberty is based on faith in God. Without faith, there will be no lasting Liberty.



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From Wikipedia: The record of the OP quotation from Tytler.

Alexander Fraser Tytler was certainly an historic figure who had much to say on forms of government.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Fraser_Tytler

[However], "the following unverified quotation has been attributed to Tytler, most notably as part of a longer piece which began circulating on the Internet shortly after the 2000 U.S. Presidential Election.

A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship.

The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning of history has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:

From bondage to spiritual faith;
From spiritual faith to great courage;
From courage to liberty;
From liberty to abundance;
From abundance to selfishness;
From selfishness to complacency;
From complacency to apathy;
From apathy to dependence;
From dependence back into bondage.

There is no reliable record of Alexander Tytler's having made the statement. In fact, this passage actually comprises two quotations, which didn't begin to appear together until the 1970s. The first portion (italicized above) first appeared on December 9, 1951, as part of what appears to be an op-ed piece in The Daily Oklahoman under the byline Elmer T. Peterson. The original version from Peterson's op-ed is as follows:

Two centuries ago, a somewhat obscure Scotsman named Tytler made this profound observation:

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury. After that, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits with the result the democracy collapses because of the loose fiscal policy ensuing, always to be followed by a dictatorship, then a monarchy."

The list beginning "From bondage to spiritual faith" is commonly known as the "Tytler Cycle" or the "Fatal Sequence". Its first known appearance is in a 1943 speech "Industrial Management in a Republic"by H. W. Prentis, president of the Armstrong Cork Company and former president of the National Association of Manufacturers, and appears to be original to Prentis."

"Jesus answered them: 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.'" (John 8:34-36)

What the USA needs is a

What the USA needs is a spiritual revival of massive proportions. I was listening to the Warning program today (Hansen) on 15180 kHz as broadcasted by WHRI (switch to DRM!), and he and his guest basically get the picture. I don't necessarily approve of this particular ministry, but I liked today's message. The guest basically emphasized two points for helping lift the USA from its current morass. Parents, take responsibility for educating your kids. The primary education of kids is NOT the church's responsibility nor the state's responsibility. Repair the destruction of the family which began with the passage of the 19th Amendment to the US Constitution. A spiritual union of a man and a woman results in a SINGLE, UNIFIED voice with ONE civil voice or vote. If individuals are spiritually unbound (no spiritual or physical union), then those individuals exercise independent voices or votes. For the aforementioned to happen on a LEVEL playing field, the 19th Amendment will have to be repealed. Regardless, churches can take steps to restore and then strengthen the family while the state tries to tear the family apart.

Some ministers are getting the message that membership in the World Council of Churches has destroyed both the independent church and the family.

Personally, every pastor in the USA should have a thorough grounding in the original intent of the US Constitution before assuming his role as shepherd of God's people.

"At one point,over half a century ago, while I was still a child

...I recall hearing a number of old people offer the following explanation for the great disasters that have befallen Russia: "Men have forgotten God", they said. "That's why all this has happened".

Since then I have spent well nigh fifty years working on the history of our revolution, but if I were asked today to formulate as concisely as possible the main cause of the ruinous revolution that has swallowed up some sixty million of our people, I could not put it more accurately than to repeat: "Men have forgotten God. That's why all this has happened."

- Alexander Solzhenitsyn.

To the anti-God brigade: He knows more about it than you. Whatever you think you are supporting, and whichever way you cut it, if you are against God you are supporting the very system that imprisoned Solzhenitsyn in the gulag and murdered sixty million of his countrymen, and the system that is trying to enslave us today; the system of satan.

Obedience to God is resistance to tyrants.

I think historical evidence paints an entirely different picture

The state is the same as religion
Freedom is the same as spirit

Religion exists to control what they think the spirit should be in the same way that the state exists to controls what they think freedom should be.

Being spiritual is fine... forcing whatever version of spirituality via religion is no different then the government forcing it's version of freedom.

Screw Christianity, screw Islam, screw Hinduism, SCREW ALL RELIGION because I don't need a church to tell me what the spirit is or how i should experience it.

Tools of war are not always obvious. The worst weapon is an idea planted in the mind of man. Prejudices can kill, suspicion can destroy, and a thoughtless, frightened search for a scapegoat has an everlasting fallout all of its own.

"It is when people forget God that tyrants forge their chains"

- Patrick Henry.

Obedience to God is resistance to tyrants.

"Man will never be free until

the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.” - Denis Diderot

“Although it was the middle of winter, I finally realized that, within me, summer was inextinguishable.” — Albert Camus

So you'd take Diderot over Patrick Henry? Hmm... I wouldn't

Let's see, what you're saying is you believe your 'freedom' can only be achieved by violent murder.

You're just another communist my friend. Switch sides, come to Jesus, I'll let you into a secret. - He wins in the end.

Obedience to God is resistance to tyrants.

No, it's just a random quote as a counterpoint

to your random quote :) Truth be told, I don't know much about Diderot. He was probably nowhere near as cool as Voltaire. Also, the quote is just a metaphor and I clearly do not condone violent murder. For example, here is another Patrick Henry quote:
"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined."

Does that mean Patrick Henry condones violence as the only way?

“Although it was the middle of winter, I finally realized that, within me, summer was inextinguishable.” — Albert Camus

So now you are backtracking on your post.

Well good, you have a conscience then. But my quote was NOT random. If you don't believe something, then why are you saying it? These things have real meaning. There is such a thing as Truth and lies. Henry's quote is true, Diderot's is lies. Pick a side. It is irresponsible of you to throw around 'random' quotes that you don't really believe.

I like your Henry quote also, but it is clear that he is advocating defensive force, not offensive. That is the difference.

God bless you.

Obedience to God is resistance to tyrants.

Cyril's picture

Sadly.

Sadly.

Yet no one can have others find God again in their heart (and brains), as they have to do it, if ever, by and for themselves.

"Cyril" pronounced "see real". I code stuff.

http://Laissez-Faire.Me/Liberty

"To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." -- Confucius

My physical body (and the products of my labor) may--

be in bondage, but my heart and spirit do not have to be--

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

I found this question interesting

as it was posed by Julian Assange to Hassan Nasrallah:

"Isn't Allah, or the notion of a God, the ultimate superpower? And shouldn't you, as a freedom fighter, also seek to liberate people from the totalitarian concept of a monotheistic God?"

“Although it was the middle of winter, I finally realized that, within me, summer was inextinguishable.” — Albert Camus

No, in a word.

Not the case.

Christians are slaves to God, absolutely. In a spiritual sense.

However, in an earthly sense, that not only allows, but in fact DEMANDS earthly Liberty. Because they can serve no master but God.

That is why Christians earthly interests are coterminous with everyone who believes in Liberty, whether or not they are Christians.

God is in no sense totalitarian, as that refers to earthy, political attempts at the authority that truthfully can only, and only ever does, belong to God.

There is in fact a choice:

a) submit to God spiritually, resulting in earthly Liberty.

Or,

b) insist on spiritual freedom from God's authority, as satan does, resulting in worldly enslavement. Literally, enslavement to satan, whose empire you have voluntarily entered.

"Those who will not be governed by God, will be ruled by tyrants."

- William Penn.

Obedience to God is resistance to tyrants.

that sounds a heck of a lot like

you are either with us or against us

I reject that those are our only two choices. How about some spiritual third parties? I can, off the top of my head, think of many different possibilities. There's polytheism, pantheism, atheism, deism, agnosticism, etc.

I prefer spiritual freedom, not spiritual slavery.

“Although it was the middle of winter, I finally realized that, within me, summer was inextinguishable.” — Albert Camus

Lol, sorry

all those you mention are versions of the same thing: anti-God-ism. The 'third way' is satan's gradualist method of luring you into his second way.

You can reject the first (the original and still the best!), as satan does. Watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDDGl79x4Pc&list=PLCED9C3616...

I sympathise with your wish for 'spiritual freedom'. But in reality it is nothing of the sort. First of all it is spiritual licence, not truly freedom. Secondly satan is a liar, and he doesn't deliver on what he promises. There is in fact no freedom in his hell. It is analogous to communists promising 'freedom from capitalism', but what they are actually doing is enslaving the suckers to themselves.

Think of it like this: If you bang your head against an immovable, invincible, unchangeable object, what are you doing? Are you affecting something else? Or are you in fact only affecting yourself, destroying yourself. Especially when it is the foundation on which you stand.

Obedience to God is resistance to tyrants.

Your conclusion doesn't follow from the quote...

Without faith, there will be no lasting Liberty.

does not follow from the quote. Not that I have anything against religion, but the statement made in the quote demonstrates a cycle whereby bondage occurs repetitively in spite of spiritual faith. According to the quote, spiritual faith is only part of the cycle.

As well, I don't believe that faith in god necessarily makes people more free. Some of the poorest and most servile people in the world are among the most religious.

Liberty is maintained by people desiring to be free and refusing to submit to tyranny. It is irrelevant how one arrives at the desire to be free. For some, it may come from religion. For others, it may come from being sick and tired of being ruled over or the inefficiency imposed on society by centralized authority.

Assuming that faith in god is the only avenue to freedom is a slippery slope that can lead a group to believe that they are "the chosen ones" - which such thinking ultimately tends to cause tyranny. For example, consider the Salem Witch Trials. Their religion lead to severe tyranny. Also, religion lead to the prohibition of "demon rum" here in the US - which resulted in rampant violence and organized crime. Religion is not a one way street to freedom. It has also lead to tyranny in the past.

Words of Wisdom

...and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free...

...for you were called to liberty, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another...

...they promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved...

...the Spirit of the Lord God is upon me, because the Lord has anointed me to bring good news to the poor; he has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to those who are bound...

Words of Wisdom (thank you! and one more) Galatians 5:1

It is for freedom that Messiah has set us free! Therefore, keep standing firm, and do not subject yourselves again to a yoke of slavery!

"Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern." ~~C.S. Lewis
Love won! Deliverance from Tyranny is on the way! Col. 2:13-15

That's a great quote.

However, "God" is too complicated a concept for me. Everyone uses the word differently, and I think it's impossible to be clear on what one means, just by using that word. I have spiritual faith but it's not about "God," it's just faith in the beauty of the life force as it keeps unfolding.

that's a nice way of putting it

I like that

“Although it was the middle of winter, I finally realized that, within me, summer was inextinguishable.” — Albert Camus

God is the subject of Faith.

If you truly have faith, then it is in God.

Obedience to God is resistance to tyrants.

Hmm

Liberty is based on understanding what bondage is, Santa Clause is just another level of control, there fore not a path or a guide to Liberty, it's a dogma.

That's great, but

what does it have to do with Jesus Christ?

Obedience to God is resistance to tyrants.

Christ hath made us

Christ hath made us free

peAce

Liberty = Responsibility

When I was a Helicopter Mechanic in the Army

we called the large nut holding the Rotor Blades onto the aircraft the "Jesus Nut"

It was named this because if it came loose everyone in the aircraft would be hollering for Jesus to save them.

Jesus "saved them" already over 2,000 years ago.

He also gave us the courage and duty to fight evil.

Don't wait until your rotor blades fall off.

True Freedom comes from Jesus Christ

Jesus Christ came and died to set us free from the bondage of sin.

As Dr. Ron Paul says, Our rights come from God, not from any government.

The world tries to put us in a box and give us our identity, but we can be defined by Christ if we choose him. He's always willing to choose us no matter how far we've strayed.

After working for Ron Paul's Presidential Campaign in Southern Illinois, I found that the most principled libertarians or constitutional conservatives are also principled in their relationship with Jesus Christ. That's not to say I didn't have a handful of awesome liberty loving atheists of staff.

However, I am a firm believer that the truest freedom cannot be achieved by any political movement, but only through intimate, personal, love relationship with God through Jesus Christ.

It's not about religion - it's about relationship. We were created to be in intimate, personal relationship with God. He loves us more than any person could ever love us and He will never let us down.

No matter what it is in your life - heartache, shame, drugs, bad relationships, guilt, depression, whatever it is - any hurt, habit or hang-up in your life, you can achieve total freedom from it through Jesus.

Not here to preach, just to speak the truth. It's never too late to find healing, meaning, peace and unconditional love from Jesus Christ. He is relentlessly pursuing a love relationship with us and always waiting with open arms.

I guess it's tough luck for Jews, Muslims, Buddhists,

Shintoists, Hinduists, Seikhs, Baha'ists, Shenists, pagans, agnostics, and atheists. They can never be free.

Strange concept of freedom, that.

“Although it was the middle of winter, I finally realized that, within me, summer was inextinguishable.” — Albert Camus

That's crazy

Its not about "My god is bigger and more powerful...". Not one bit. But there is a Love component to Liberty. Rooted in natural law, it has a Truth component.

I don't think being an adherent to any of those philosophies or faiths would prevent a person from knowing and sharing Love. God is Love. Let each group and each individual come to know God in their own way through Love.

Christians merely have the example of Jesus and his teachings, the greatest of which is the Golden Rule. One can hardly be a good Christian by hating others. "Ye will know them by their fruits" is also key. I would rather call a Bahai or Agnostic or whoever brother if they keep the commandment and act towards themselves and all life in a spirit of magnanimity. On the other hand, I have no use for people who claim to be Christians but who do not have Love in their hearts.

At their core, religions are meant to help people walk upright on a path of virtue in life. Virtue is personal like Faith, but a virtuous person will be a great benefit to others socially because they have striven to be free in all that entails.

Christianity began as a reform movement within Judaism which arose because of the perception of some Jews that Judaism had become stagnant by focusing too much on "rules" without a spirit of compassion, hence "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone". The point then is not about arguing over dead letters and rigidly enforcing dogmas and thought conformity. Quite the opposite. it is about Love which is available to all people everywhere. Of course, there are plenty who just don't get it. Always and in every place and time. And they usurp the label and give it a bad name by not even trying to understand or follow the message.

Like when Glenn Beck calls himself a libertarian (or a Christian for that matter)...

Jordan Page gets it. His music is filled with scriptural symbolism.
"I saw a cross breaking free from the cage of the steeple..."

Forgiveness

I just beat on Glenn and I shouldn't have. Its that whole thing about being non-judgmental towards others because we each have to walk our own path. You see how easy it is to fall into this trap? Its the trap that undermines both Christian values and personal liberty. They are so joined in so many ways and I think the recognition of that is the primary purpose of this post if I understand it correctly.

ok, thanks for explaining

I like what you wrote and find no issue with any of that. Thanks for the good song, too. I haven't really taken the time before to listen to Jordan Page too much.

Here is a song from my perspective:
Agalloch - Kneel to the Cross

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sTIzYTe70w

“Although it was the middle of winter, I finally realized that, within me, summer was inextinguishable.” — Albert Camus