6 votes

The pivotal point in the upward curve from bondage to liberty is spiritual faith

In response to the recent spate of anti-Christian, anti-faith and anti-semitic posts on this site:

"The world's great civilizations have progressed through this sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith; from spiritual faith to great courage; from courage to liberty; from liberty to abundance; from abundance to selfishness; from selfishness to complacency; from complacency to apathy; from apathy to dependence; from dependence back again into bondage." - Alexander Fraser Tytler

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ks7CU9lKej8&list=PL1C889ED74C...

Liberty is based on faith in God. Without faith, there will be no lasting Liberty.

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"In response to the recent

"In response to the recent spate of anti-Christian, anti-faith and anti-semitic posts on this site"

Some of you people run around here proselytizing incessantly but then get pissed when non-religious or Atheists retort. Either deal with us and have a grown up debate or shut up about your religious dogma. Again with this post you're saying that I can't acheive liberty without spiritual faith? What kind of shit is that? You're the one whose mind is shackled, I however am a free thinker and am not and should never be ashamed to admit that no matter how hard you people try to silence me and others like myself.

What atheist civilization

has been based on the right to life, liberty, and property?

lol

Oh, so this isn't a thread

Oh, so this isn't a thread about Taoists, Buddhists, Muslims or Hindus? Really? What about their faith? Gee, I guess they're all wrong and Christians are all right... right?

Give it a rest. If you're looking for affirmation of your beliefs or if you want to convert the hostiles, look elsewhere. Seriously.

I 2nd that! Thank you.

Couldn't have said it better.

(NOW. Can we please get back to Liberty, everyone?)

What would the Founders do?

Religious institutions

Religious institutions trample a mans freedom just as readily as tyrants do, only they have mastered the art of subversion over many centuries. They teach people to deny their own rational thought ("lean not to thy own understanding") and to have "faith"... I.e. believe it even if you don't fully understand it. This is why religion is so ripe for abuse.

All of the least free places in the world are more religious than the u.s.

I can see how "living above" the corruption and evil in the world can grant a person a sense of freedom, but I don't believe freedom is only achievable through religious means.

- Grow Mushrooms at Home
http://subfarms.com

In North Korea, one of the least free places in the world,

everyone is required to worship the Dear Leader. Yes, they are more religious than the USA, where no one is required to worship anything.

Couldn't agree more

I'm not talking about religious institutions, I'm talking about Faith.

Obedience to God is resistance to tyrants.

I'm certain

that they will continue to ignore that fact.

Cyril's picture

Pascal put it better than I could have ever done

Pascal put it better than I could have ever done, even in several lives :

"Let us herein examine the order of the world, and see if all things do not tend to establish these two chief points of this religion: Jesus Christ is the end of all, and the centre to which all tends. Whoever knows Him knows the reason of everything.

Those who fall into error err only through failure to see one of these two things. We can then have an excellent knowledge of God without that of our own wretchedness, and of our own wretchedness without that of God. But we cannot know Jesus Christ without knowing at the same time both God and our own wretchedness.

Therefore I shall not undertake here to prove by natural reasons either the existence of God, or the Trinity, or the immortality of the soul, or anything of that nature; not only because I should not feel myself sufficiently able to find in nature arguments to convince hardened atheists, but also because such knowledge without Jesus Christ is useless and barren. Though a man should be convinced that numerical proportions are immaterial truths, eternal and dependent on a first truth, in which they subsist, and which is called God, I should not think him far advanced towards his own salvation.

The God of Christians is not a God who is simply the author of mathematical truths, or of the order of the elements; that is the view of heathens and Epicureans. He is not merely a God who exercises His providence over the life and fortunes of men, to bestow on those who worship Him a long and happy life. That was the portion of the Jews. But the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, the God of Christians, is a God of love and of comfort, a God who fills the soul and heart of those whom He possesses, a God who makes them conscious of their inward wretchedness, and His infinite mercy, who unites Himself to their inmost soul, who fills it with humility and joy, with confidence and love, who renders them incapable of any other end than Himself."

...

Peace.

http://www.dailypaul.com/278630/so-you-know-about-bastiat-no...

P.S.
And yes, indeed: "religion" and "faith" are two distinct words.

Two distinct nouns. Denoting two distinct things. Loosely related.

Sharing very little in common, when one looks more attentively in one's inner self, actually.

How many times have we been religious in our lives? How many times have we been really faithful to our own faith? Were these the same times? The answers we can find, there, are sometimes pretty harsh.

"Cyril" pronounced "see real". I code stuff.

http://Laissez-Faire.Me/Liberty

"To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." -- Confucius

summed up

live your life like there is NO GOD / die and find out there IS

live your life like there is a GOD / die and find out there ain't

I follow the latter and am therewith content, plus given the fact
of being dead and too late for another chance, if perchance there is
a God and I took the steps (whilst alive) to get Right with Him - then it would have been worth it all - a little Liberty in the here and now
and nothing but Liberty in the hereafter.

The problem with Pascal's

The problem with Pascal's wager, which is basically what you've just used, is that it can be applied to every religion and the 10,000+ gods in history. It doesn't work.

It's not "casual" if your religion says the following

1) That you will be body-locked 'till judgement ("sleeping" in peace or restlessness for many millenia)

---Thanks Jews

-OR-

2) That you will be burned forever-ever in Hell for not giving Jesus his props (it would literally take 5 seconds to be "saved")

---Thanks Scriptura Sola Christians (protestants)
---Thanks Martin Luther for making this up

-OR-

3) That you will be burned forever-ever in Hell, but you first get a "2nd chance" at salvation in Purgatory -- IF you bow-down to Pope, Catholic Church, Mary, and Christ (must be all of the above). If not (then) you go to hell.

---Thanks Catholics

-OR-

4) You will go to heaven if you kill infidels -- where your reward will be 70 virgins; who are spoiling waiting for you to arrive???

---Thanks Muslims.

Boy -- it's hard to decide which religion to chose -- well all of the "extra" crazy ones were born out of Judaism; hmmmmmm, can I handle a 2000 year body-lock restless sleep, sounds better than burning for ever WITHOUT parole (no thanks Protetants) for the slightest of offenses.

Is there another option?

Oh -- Reincarnation!!!

Buddhism is a lot easier -- you keep coming back 'till you achieve in meditation the state of bliss -- which is like hands-free masturbation (essentially); without spilling the "sacred seed", a sort of internalized hands-free masturbation (if you will).

So I sit around trying to be happy without external triggers -- thus freeing me from external trigger dependent joy AND suffering.

If I fail -- worse thing is I come back again? If I was a "good person" on top of meditating real hard I get to come back to a good (spiritually propelling family)?

I'll take Buddhism for the Win -- but can I be a Buddhist who never reads or believes on any scripture and still get the fruit-platter?

Just meditate and be good -- Why yes, they have the kind of "buddhism" -- one that does not require externalized worship or historical personage worship.

Be Kind and Meditate -- that's my religion. No dogma. No language. No sharing of anything other than "how-to" techniques.

spiritual faith has nothing to do with religion

Why do you confuse the two?
I can be a seeker of truth without following any religion. I may look to the Masters of whatever sect for guidance and enlightenment, but it doesn't mean I have to accept the dogmas that have grown around the teachings.
Jesus was a slave to no man - even when he was captured, whipped and crucified, Hewas still free. You get caught up in the outter trappings and forget the inner reality.
I'm downvoting your post for its ignorance and intolerance.

If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.
James Madison

LOL

Who said I confused the two -- maybe you misunderstood what I wrote, or maybe I wasn't clear, or maybe I'm not overtly concerned with being exactly right -- maybe my goal was to be "some" percentage of correct, like 52% Correct.

Maybe I was playing devils advocate?

Maybe I'm a username and this username is an outlet a tool for undeveloped ideas -- maybe I'm playing at personalities.

Maybe I programmed the matrix and you are a bit of unruly code *types feverishly* and I finally gotcha *click*

*ctrl-alt-delete*

**End Program

You make my point for me

The Buddhist homeland of Tibet is currently enslaved to a foreign oppressor and has been for 50 years. That is where buddhism gets you. Christianity by contrast, liberates.

Obedience to God is resistance to tyrants.

No -- a society founded on Christianity allows for Slavery

If you believe America, South America, Mexico, and Caribbean countries were all founded on Christianity (smile *curtsy*).

Some might argue that America was founded on "secular" and not Christian foundations, but none of the other countries I mentioned were they were all DIFINITIVELY founded on Christian "virtue" and just ask the slaves and indians in those lands about "liberation" and "occupation"

I'm not a buddhist (by-the-by).

I'm sorry but you're plain wrong.

As I don't believe the countries you mentioned were founded on Christianity, they were mostly founded on European feudal, hereditary kingship and aristocracy - as far from Christianity as can be.

As you stated, the USA was not really founded on Christianity either, but on secular values. As I have stated, it is the New England heritage of righteous Christianity that I have been alluding to,- those states never allowed slavery and were its greatest enemies.

It was precisely to the extent of the lack of Christianity in the US (after, lets remember, the original Christian values of the Northern states had been replaced by more secular ones), that allowed the new US republic to turn a blind eye to slavery.

And, it was God's righteous wrath on slavery that saw the South defeated and humbled in the war between the states. A terrible misfortune as in every other way the South's cause of secession was righteous and good. But the Kingdom of Jesus Christ is incompatible with slavery. Indeed it was His influence that originally removed the practice of it from Europe as Christianity spread following the dark ages. As you say, it crept back in later. Not by Christianity, but by the lack of it.

Obedience to God is resistance to tyrants.

Seriously? God's righteous wrath against something God allows?

How does that work?

Both the Old and New Testaments specifically allow slavery. What is the just basis for incurring "God's righteous wrath" in this regard? Were they doing it wrong? Would there have been zero wrath on this point if they'd enslaved people in a more biblically correct manner?

Exactly.

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." Galatians 3:28:

"Masters, give unto your servants that which is just and equal; knowing that ye also have a Master in heaven." Colossians 4:1

“The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to set the oppressed free” (Luke 4:18)

“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
“‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” Matthew 22:37

Is this so hard to understand? Or is it that you are trying very hard not to understand it.

Obedience to God is resistance to tyrants.

What percent of wrath do you suppose was caused by the slaves?

What percent of wrath do you suppose was caused by slaves not being obedient and respectful enough (thus being disobedient to God)?

"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)"

"Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them." (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

This is within the context of...

Christ's teaching of obedience, service, humility to God and hard work in general. You can see from the quotes above he is teaching these things to all people equally, masters as well as slaves, as part of the message "love thy neighbour".

Obedience to God is resistance to tyrants.

Somehow I think if you watched your daughter whipped and raped

and then sold-off, you would not be as casual with the "forgive thy neighbor" or "love thy neighbor" crap. Jesus flipped the money-changers tables for a far less offense then slavery, acceptable forms of rape, and just war theory -- all of which the bible counsels us on.

God parts enslaving other God parts and God rebuking God parts for not love God enough?

It's maddening -- there's no other area of life where you'd accept such logic for services rendered, hahahahaha.

I could make a good argument for "faith" (why develop it), but it would not make sense in the "light of christian history" nor in the light of a "literal" interpretation of the bible.

The Kings and Queens of those countries (Italy, Spain, Portugal)

were all "heads" of the Catholic Church -- or Guardians, if you will.

Slavery was condoned by Catholic Popes during the whole period of American slavery.

And in US (America) slavery was condoned by nearly all forms of non-Catholic Christianity save Quakers, who were a minority among Protestants.

If you do not believe those countries or America was founded on Christianity then you are in the minority view -- even among Daily Paulers who argue that America was founded on Judeo-Christian "principles" -- as has been argued many times over.

I'm not giving "my view" here -- just playing devils advocate, giving you and/or others to chime in/on.

Good points again.

And here's the explanation:

The Catholic Church is not in fact a Christian organisation. It is a continuation of the Roman pagan cult of sun worship, actually a continuation of the Roman Empire itself.

It was created by Emperor Constantine, an outright pagan, who remained an outright pagan all his life, even after his supposed 'conversion', which was in fact a political ploy to gain spiritual and so better political control over the fragmenting and dissolving Roman Empire. It worked, and within a couple of centuries the Empire was re-established as the Catholic Church under political Emperor Charlemagne.

"And in US (America) slavery was condoned by nearly all forms of non-Catholic Christianity save Quakers, who were a minority among Protestants."

Sorry but this is not born out by any evidence. Protestants, especially puritan New England, were always staunchly against slavery, to the extent that there was a strong secession movement within New England itself in the antebellum period, as they did not want to be part of the same country with slave-holders.

"If you do not believe those countries or America was founded on Christianity then you are in the minority view"

Then thank God we live in a society where there is not a democratic tyranny of the majority, as I believe that view is the right one.

Obedience to God is resistance to tyrants.

We have "different" definitions of "condone"

....and I said "nearly all" I never said "all"

I was trying to make a broader point, but we are getting tied down by absolutism -- no, not "all" (but I'd argue most) protestant, catholic, etc religions condoned slavery. Again i said "nearly"

In the north many protestants made their living directly or indirectly supporting slavery -- so the "lip service" on Sunday for 200 years makes little difference in the lives of those enslaved, you can appreciate that over that long of a period, right? If you were held as a slave how long would you tell other slaves "oh, but some white folks are against slavery, they say so in words" (crack of the lash "back to work") -- it just doesn't have "meaning" over 30 years let alone 10 or so generations, it's laughable.

Slaves were not convinced white people were against slavery until they saw Lincoln's army come for them.

See where splitting hairs can get you?

My original points stand: http://www.dailypaul.com/276659#comment-3010728

Faith and religion are not . . .

the same thing--

Archie Mudd (I think?) said it better.

I have come to accept that there are those who don't need my faith (or want it)--

but I still have it. Whether other people want it or need it is their choice.

I do believe there are people who have faith who don't know they do, however.

But I don't want to attack anyone or be attacked by anyone. If someone laughs at me, because I have faith, I won't laugh at them, because they don't.

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

What THEY said....

Down There


Paine says

"National institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."
Thomas Paine

"Of all the tyrannies that affect mankind, tyranny in religion is the worst; every other species of tyranny is limited to the world we live in; but this attempts to stride beyond the grave, and seeks to pursue us into eternity."
Thomas Paine

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise"
James Madison

Hebrews 13:17
Obey your leaders and submit to them (obama), for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.

Romans 13
Submission to Governing Authorities
13 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.
6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

http://youtu.be/xh-5FI21s6M

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