22 votes

Warning! Dump your bitcoins!

Remember what happened to the Facebook pump and dump scheme?
Remember when bit coin dropped to 0?
There is nothing backing bitcoin execpt computer code. Don't be a chump. Dump your bitcoins before they drop in value significantly.

What bubble will burst first. The dollar or bitcoin?


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Credit markets...

require a stable currency. If the value of a currency goes up too quickly then nobody wants to lend it. And if the value goes down too quickly then nobody wants to borrow it. This is why bitcoins are not a real currency. The value fluctuates too wildly. Mises preferred gold and other metals because of their relatively stable value over time which allowed for credit markets to develop.

Bitcoins are just a speculative investment. Like beanie babies in the 90's.

Also, in the real world and universe when the chart of something goes vertical, like the bitcoin value charts are doing right now, it means something is about to explode destructively or plummet to the earth due to a lack of further energy to expend. Pump and dump, rinse and repeat.

tick.. tick... tick.. tick.. tick...

~wobbles but doesn't fall down~

It is a real currency.

It is certainly a real currency. Being an unstable currency, doesn't change that it is one.

Your examples of instability are completely inverted: If the market value of a currency goes up, people want to lend because they expect their their interest and principal to appreciate, and if value goes down, people want to borrow because they believe it will be easier to repay.

I do agree with your main point, and I believe Bitcoin is nothing more than a completely worthless, speculative asset, that will eventually collapse.

The context....

of my lending/borrowing examples is an unstable currency that is going up or down "too quickly". "Too quickly" implies there will probably be wild reversals such as spikes and valleys.

Your rendition of the examples seems to assume that rising values will keep rising or at least stay high for the duration of the loan or that dropping values will continue to drop or will stay low for the duration of the loan.

My proffering of the examples assumes that a radical reversal is just up ahead (or at least uncertainty) which creates the classic lending freeze. At any rate, credit markets (and import/export markets) prefer a stable currency.... :)

~wobbles but doesn't fall down~

Yes, you are right. My

Yes, you are right. My apologies; it seems I didn't read your post closely enough. All of this Bitcoin love on the DP has put me on "contradict mode". These kids are going to lose it all, if they plan to hold Bitcoin long term.

Bitcoin can be...

an excellent investment for wide-awake and constantly observant day traders. Some of them, the ones with superior timing, will make a killing. The others will learn a lesson... :>

None of this really troubles me, except for the unfortunate ones who overinvested with funds they need for daily living and for retirement/nestegg.

As I am not a day trader and am aware of the nature of charts that track vertical (from physics), I stay away from all verticality and exponentiality with respect and trepidation. Minimally I will prepare blast shields, protective clothing and/or parachutes. :p

~wobbles but doesn't fall down~

Absolutely, traders probably

Absolutely, traders probably are making a lot of wealth if they are managing to find the bottoms, but someone will end up holding the bag, and I find the whole, completely avoidable, situation despicable.

Currencies add nothing to society and should be abolished, if not outlawed, IMO.

As a follower of...

the Austrian school, the only currencies I am for is the ones self-generated by a totally free market of currencies. Austrian theory says these will be commodity (things useful outside use as a currency -- true wealth[see Bastiat and Menger]) monies. :D

~wobbles but doesn't fall down~

I draw a line between the

I draw a line between the terms currency (monetized bank notes), and money. As for whether the money should come from the market or the state, I'm not sure yet.

I suppose it could be a hybrid system, where the state has a standard coinage system, consisting of weights and designs, that any private mint could emulate. This would keep the coinage consistent.

I prefer the old Greek system, where when money was brought into a city, it had to be melted down and minted in the coinage of that city to be spent there, with the city taking a tiny % fee in the process. For the US, this could occur when the money reaches the country.

The etymology of "money"...

is "metal coins". If that means anything in today's world. :)

money -

1. Coin; stamped metal; any piece of metal, usually gold, silver or copper, stamped by public authority, and used as the medium of commerce. We sometimes give the name of money to other coined metals,and to any other material which rude nations use a medium of trade. But among modern commercial nations, gold, silver and copper are the only metals used for this purpose.

2. Bank notes or bills of credit issued by authority, and exchangeable for coin or redeemable, are also called money; as such notes in modern times represent coin

webster's 1828

money (n.) - mid-13c., "coinage, metal currency," from Old French monoie "money, coin, currency; change" (Modern French monnaie), from Latin moneta "place for coining money, mint; coined money, money, coinage," from Moneta, a title or surname of the Roman goddess Juno, in or near whose temple money was coined

~wobbles but doesn't fall down~

It doesn't mean much today

It doesn't mean much today to the average person, but it supports my terminology, and I think that for the sake of differentiating them, people should keep the terms separate. I think calling currency, money, is semantic propaganda.




...just say it in your head..."bitcoin, shitcoin" ...

I burst out laughing when I read it!

When I was teenager, I was in a park with a friend...an older man was jogging along, and he made a beeline for the drinking fountain we were also walking uo to...
My friend looked at me, with an outraged look on his face as though the jogger had "cut" in front of him; and he then stared at the man drinking who was winded.

The man's shirt read "Fermilab", it is an energy research facility west of Chicago; and my friend blurted out loud "spermilab!"

The man looked up at him immediately, and say."you little punk!", and then chased him all the way to the north perimeter of the park...probably 3 city blocks!

Well, that's how I see this debate going between the bitcoin proponents, and the bitcoin skeptics....it's made laugh!!!

I may not use bitcoins but I

sure value that they exist. Currency competition is a good thing.

Thank you for being accurate

Yours is the first comment I've noticed on this thread (there may be others) that is honest about saying "I value this" instead of making some false claim about things having objective value regardless of one's opinion.

For the record: my own business will never accept bitcoins.

You can convert them into

any other currency for free. USD to Euro, free. I paid 10 or 15% when I went to Italy a few years back.

This is the feature that gives it value. I agree, it's a little crazy right now, but I'm still trying to wrap my head around it. I do know, I bought at 30, they are now at 50. I will sell at 100. Done.

Also, we had the stock market crash in the 1900's the great depression, black Friday. When bit coin crashed, did any gov't agency swoop in and "save the economy" NO. People bought back in because prices were cheap. It's totally free market, it's diversity supports it, and since no one is playing the numbers, it responds IMMEDIATELY to the market.

Kind of gives those who believe in free market currency hope.

Not much standing here, but, bitcoins are backed by...central bankers fiat currencies because they trade on top of them. Having one fiat is bad, but, what makes bad a little better is trading among a diverse amount of fiats...

Digital-money eventually returns to its intrinsic value – zero.

Perhaps lonely, without its only one.

John von Neumann & his Von Neumann Engine

Today, UH math professor Krešo Josić talks about brains, computers and John von Neumann: http://www.uh.edu/engines/epi2487.htm

Disclaimer: Mark Twain (1835-1910-To be continued) is unlicensed. His river pilot's license went delinquent in 1862. Caution advised. Daily Paul

Yes dump your bitcoins now!

Yes dump your bitcoins now!

Please send them here: 1811XoDfbujYJfhXq4BZ5DAMqLhxFoQHs5

Great Minds Think Alike ; )

Check out our website:


We have had the Executive Director of the Mises Institute in our discussions.

All of our discussions are on youtube via our google hangout.

We engage all aspects of Austrian Economics and have even had Per Bylund on the topic of Swedish socialism; Peter Klein, the Executive Director of the Mises Institute, on the topic of Entrepreneurship (we look forward to having him back.)

Peter Surda- who is associated with the Mises Institute- is the man when it comes to Austrian Economics and Bitcoins: laissez-faire books will soon publish his work.

Dude, even Liberty Loving and America's Security Championed Katherine Albrecht has given Bit Coins Thumbs Up!! check out her book Spy-Chips

"We’ve moved beyond the Mises textbook. We’re running in the open market." - Erik Voorhees

If people want Bitcoin, its

If people want Bitcoin, its not your business, its theirs!

Good day!

If people want to post threads

about dumping Bitcoin, it's their business, not yours. See how that works? Nobody made you click on this thread, after all.

I don't see how this thread is butting into other peoples' business...unless giving general advice to no one particular person counts as that now.

For frame of reference, I don't care about Bitcoin one way or another. I see the pros and cons, but don't care to argue them any longer, because it always goes in circles.

A signature used to be here!

“Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value – zero.”

“Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value – zero.” (Voltaire, 1694-1778) Rather quickly perhaps.

Longest run currently:

  • 3+ Centuries. English Pound Sterling (no longer metal backing), The Crown, London.
  • 1 + Century. Swiss Franc (no longer metal backing), Switzerland

    Swiss National Bank Headquarters. Geo-Quiz: which two cities?

  • 1 + Century. US Federal Reserve Note (aka: Dollar Note; no longer metal backing) NY City (eerily desolate headquarter building in Washington DC).

Disclaimer: Mark Twain (1835-1910-To be continued) is unlicensed. His river pilot's license went delinquent in 1862. Caution advised. Daily Paul

I believe that the 'fiat' tally stick

had a run of 700 years because it was unable to be counterfitted.

Yes. 700+ years. The Tally Stick Accounting: Internal Control.

The reasons for this long reign.... May I call it that? ... The reasons were many. I lost count.

The Tally Stick Accounting: Internal Control.

The tallies reached their peak in the 14th century, but their decline was slow even with the introduction of paper. The role of tally sticks was mentioned by Shakespeare in Sonnet 122.2 from Henry VI:

    “nor need I tallies thy dear love to score” and “whereas before, our forefathers had no other books but the score and tally” (as cited in Baxter, 1989, p. 63). ... In addition, tally sticks were a crude but effective tool of internal control for centuries.

Disclaimer: Mark Twain (1835-1910-To be continued) is unlicensed. His river pilot's license went delinquent in 1862. Caution advised. Daily Paul

Bitcoin is for people who

Bitcoin is for people who don't understand money. A bitcoin has no value of its own. It has market value, driven by the confidence some people have placed in it, but this is an illusion.


Market value must be based on the qualities of the asset. Bitcoins cannot be used for anything useful themselves. Bitcoins are not redeemed by any entity for anything useful, and so they are not backed by anything.

The only thing that separates Bitcoin from the Fed Dollar, is that the Fed Dollar is legal tender. Bitcoin fanatics want us to believe that this is a point in Bitcoins favor. Clearly, this is not the case. Very few people use Bitcoins, and Bitcoins are not good for tax purposes.

If you own Bitcoins, I advise that you sell while the price is good and be glad you didn't ride this crazy train to the crash.

Do you?

An assets is always valued at the price someone is willing to pay for it not on erroneous qualities.

Aristotle's five qualities of money do not include usefulness. They are consistency, convenience, durability, divisibility, and contain value in and of itself. Gold is not all that useful.

FRN's do have legal tender status but Bitcoin's source code limits the quantity that can be mined.

Whoever invested in Bitcoin did pretty good for themselves up to and including today.

I don't.

Gold is not that useful? I

Gold is not that useful? I suggest you look up the many uses of gold. Gold is incredibly useful.

When Aristotle said "value in and of itself", he meant genuine use, not market value. Bitcoins have no genuine use to man.

Bitcoins being limited in quantity does not change that they are of themselves worthless, not being legal tender keeps them useless.

You can eat it.

The reason it is so valuable is that it is extremely durable, hard to mine, and rare. I just don't think the word 'useful' is very fitting.

By your reasoning all the owners of the multi-trillions of dollars on the Forex do not understand currency. I beg to differ.

I am not a big fan of Bitcoin but I applaud the people who bought into it and made some dough. I think Bitcoin is a good idea. When they figure out how to give it intrinsic value I may buy, cause I like intrinsic value. But those Forex traders are very smart and some very wealthy for participating so I won't knock any of them because currency is not useful.

They understand currency just

They understand currency just fine. Likely quite a few of them understand money as well, but then, those elite are the beneficiaries/profiteers of the FRN currency system.

Gold is extremely useful, and its durability is just one of the reasons. Gold's rarity does add to its market value (price), but the price of something doesn't change what that thing actually is. Bitcoiners will learn this the hard way.

This line here: "Figure out how to give it intrinsic value" betrays your complete ignorance on this matter. They cannot possibly give intrinsic value to something which has no such value. If you understood this topic, you'd know that. Someone could set up a trust that gave 1 gram of gold for each and every bitcoin offered, no exceptions. This would be a sort of unofficial redemption, but it wouldn't give the bitcoin itself value, would it? The value is in the gold, not in the bitcoin.


I did not mean exactly Bitcoin. I like parts of Bitcoin. I like that it cannot be duplicated. I love its convenience. It's divisible. And the government can't take it over. Someday soon more online currencies will be designed. Goldmoney is a good one with intrinsic value. There will be more.

I dropped everything I owned into silver and gold in April 2003. Check out the charts. Then my next huge purchase was September 2008. I understand money just fine.

I just don't like it when people try giving investment advice like you were. For all you know Bitcoin may take off.

GoldMoney isn't a currency;

GoldMoney isn't a currency; you are buying the metals directly. Whether that Gold really is secure is another question.

In any case, you are missing the separation between the currency, and what it can be redeemed for. One has value, the other does not.

Bitcoin might reach new highs, I wont deny it, but Bitcoin is not a fundamentally sound asset, and it isn't money. If you understand the purpose of money, the eased transaction of equal value, certainly you understand the immorality of any currency, including Bitcoin.

Bitcoin WILL end up worthless, like every currency before it. There may be an opportunity for speculators to make a quick buck, but someone will be left holding the bag, and you know it.

Right when we had a real chance for money to make a comeback, while a greater understanding of it was growing, this Bitcoin abomination bursts onto the scene and distracts the young libertarian set from what they should be advocating for.