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The "Acceptable" Lines Have Been Drawn In the Drone Debate. When is Murder MURDER?

I am supporting a great organization that is helping us get the message out loud and clear... you can't have our guns! (Who says we got some?)

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It's quite frankly shocking to go back over the last 20 years of this country's history. For those who seem to have forgotten... or it's just "escaped their minds," the Declaration of Independence does not say "All Americans Are Created Equal."

The Constitution goes on to say persons, people and [C]citizens not "Americans" when it lays out the explicit rights which the founders felt were most important to enumerate. Then of course we have the 9th and 10th articles of the Bill of Rights to seal up any loose ends in case power hungry wanna-be dictators decide, "Well, the Constitution doesn't address this... I guess we can have this power too."

For those who think that, PLEASE review, MOST IMPORTANTLY the 9th (which does not include the word STATE) and the 10th Articles of the Bill of Rights.

Where in the Constitution does it say foreigners do not have rights? Where do politicians... and now many of you(I stand corrected)... get the idea that Americans in some way shape or form are "more equal" than people in other countries? If you think that... how can you be legitimately pro-life if you think some lives are more valuable than others?

Another thing that really kinda freaks me out about this whole drone debate is that it is "obviously not okay to kill an American on American soil without due process."

QUESTION: WHY IS "on American soil" in that sentence?

I have many questions... perhaps a lot more than can be answered in a 13 hour filibuster... and likely would not EVER be answered - of course.

So by phrasing the debate around the words "on American soil" now, by default, condones the killing of Americans NOT ON FOREIGN SOIL... does it not? Or as Fishy pointed out FOREIGNERS on American soil - AND potentially any American Citizens guilty of standing around that "suspected terrorist that was an imminent threat."

Edit Pardon me... but if I'm standing near a terrorist... I will take my chances with being well armed vs being bombed by a hellfire missile - sacrificing my life in order to get one terrorist (and the lives of perhaps a dozen others). I appreciate being reminded by Rand that these are "Hell Fire" missiles that the DBA govCorp is mulling over dropping on us!

I keep waiting for RoboCop to show up at my door to confiscate my guns (just in case I might have any anyway).

So now obviously this puts Rand in a tough position... because in order to get Obama to admit he can't do something HE'S ALREADY DONE on FOREIGN SOIL or to FOREIGNERS he could have filibustered for the entire 2013 cycle and he would never have gotten an answer. Obama/Holder would need to be taking the 5th.

EVEN THE ANSWER was cryptic.

Maybe this is also a fear tactic to prevent Americans from taking their capitol and fleeing this country before it goes full blown dictatorship?

"Oh, I don't wanna go overseas - I might be killed by a drone!"

Basically what we're saying to Obama is: "Okay we know you already killed Americans on foreign soil without due process (who I'm BETTING were not "terrorists" anyway - hence we will never know because there was NO TRIAL) but we're just going to let that slide.

Aren't we?(Okay maybe we're not?)

Have we not already surrendered a TON of ground? How many times do we step back and draw another line? I think the grassroots really needs to take what Rand did to the next level. We can't just hang on his words - we MUST PUSH THROUGH them to the real issue which is... if someone... ANYONE is not engaged in combat... and you KILL them... that is MURDER!

No ifs, ands, or buts... thoughts?

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Speaking of drone strikes..

Looks like my post is under attack! We need to get reinforcements... email patriots everywhere... including CONSTITUTIONALISTS and RON PAUL SUPPORTERS - TEA PARTY PEOPLE -> OCCUPY -> ALL PEACE ACTIVISTS -> RALLY THE TROOPS AND LET'S TAKE THAT HILL!!!

We are united! Notice how the trolls will not enjoin themselves into the conversation and explain why they have some issue with OUR train of thought here... but the down-vote bomb has begun.

I have NO DOUBT it is a CONSPIRACY by the FBI/CIA/DHS/MIB and Janet Napolitano PERSONALLY under the authorization of King Mack Daddy Obama himself!

IMAGINE drone strikes in TEXAS

if you listened to the filibuster you heard Rand criticizing the drone program abroad as well, saying it metasticized terrorism like a cancer and that it was like mowing grass because it just grows back, and criticizing signature strikes. he used all that to then say "we cannot have this standard in America" but he criticized the standard everywhere (his only acceptable line was where he acknowledged firing back when being fired at, he was consistently critical of assassination in a cafe be it in Yemen or US soil)... the real reason he made a worst-case-scenario line in the sand regarding "on US soil" was that it was a dramatic way of making this kind of point: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKfuS6gfxPY

LittleWing's picture

Yes, he was watering the seeds

Ron Paul planted as best he could under the circumstances! He is going up against much, much more than meets the eye. I wish more people, especially here, would see that.

If Wars Can Be Started by Lies, They Can Be Stopped By Truth.

It appears

that your wishes have already been granted if you review the comments on this post ;-)

This issue appears to have galvanized this movement.

I'm being completely honest here.

Give these to a homeless guy and tell him to offer them to people for 25 cents each. There are over 2,000 homeless people in Austin TX alone just roaming around or staying in camping cities in the woods.

http://www.dailypaul.com/277535/the-new-super-brochure-is-he...

Give them a hand UP - not a hand OUT.

They start their little business selling superbrochures and before you know it they are back remembering how that free market works again...

Originally meant to post that over there but they deserve a plug over here... GREAT JOB on the SuperBrochure!

I think you can get in trouble for that

I think it's a swell idea, but I also think, being I work in a soup kitchen, that paying them anything would fall wind up where some authority, poloce, social worker, concerned citizen who doesn't like guns or the homeless with guns, makes a call and that leads to being fined for not paying mon wage.. or taxes.. or something.. Life is not easy fot the homeless.. they have little private space or privacy, or security, and there is a whole other world, network, survival system, even language.. they are very collective actually, and I think this is for survival.. so the brochures being passed out is not likely to happen.. here, you would have to go to a place, like a commercial grocery store, apply to pass out flyers and then do that within the time allotted or agreed. Also, I find Super Brouchures very helpful as supplimental materials for campaign tables, or petitioning. I think the best places to distribute them are at independent shops.. dentists, eye doctors, gift stores, book stores, coffee shops, doctors, tire and engine shops, beauty and nail shops.. anywhere there is a waiting room... least I do not mention the public Library and empty newspaper vending machines for free real estate magazines.

You just give them the flyers.

Let them ask for a quarter. The flyers are a donation you're not asking them to collect quarters for you lol.

How many of them do you think are armed?

How many do you think really think this is a top issue for them?

It doesn't matter what the issue is...

however many of them are probably vets.

Their issue is if you hand them a stack of brochures and tell them they can get .25 ea for handing them out somewhere... maybe they will distribute them. I know the whole scene inside out - a good source of legal money to make - a quarter per pop - distributing a flyer etc etc is not something you'd think twice at turning down...

That's like a 300/wk salary for you and me.

Not to mention a lot of homeless people can talk your ear off about politics ;-)

I'm thinking

"American Soil" was made the issue because It was something achievable. Was it what we would have liked, no but like you said Rand would have filibustered the 2013 season and got nothing if he was trying to get Obama to say what he already did was illegal. By saying American soil he got a response and I think most importantly respect from other senate members, media and some Americans that might not know who Rand Paul is. You always have to remember most of the nation are not Constitutionalists, or Libertarians. We have to take the victories where we can and build on them, people are coming around.

I've had more friends and family ask me about Rand after the filibuster then I ever did Ron Paul. The media had already convinced them that he was a kook. In fact on more than one occasion at family get together I had someone read my Ron Paul shirts and ask me, "Isn't that the kooky guy they are always talking about?" Rand can't give the media any ammunition if he is going to help grow the liberty movement. Truth bombs are awesome but he has to know when he can get away with dropping them.

The bold effort the present bank had made to control the government ... are but premonitions of the fate that await the American people should they be deluded into a perpetuation of this institution or the establishment of another like it-Andrew Jackson

Why are you so stupid.

What will you be okay with in 5 years, 10? Do you really think that they won't start hitting targets inside the US?

What will you think when they do? It's okay?

You people are such shortsighted imbecilic weak excuses for human beings. Truly fucking pathetic.

Patriot Cell #345,168
I don't respond to emails or pm's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=qo8CmO...
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution, inevitable.

Reading your

reply again, you seem to be raging... Your not by chance taking any of those prescription medications I see advertised on TV for depression, or anxiety are you? They are not healthy, side affects are suicide, mass shootings and rude rants on the DP.

The bold effort the present bank had made to control the government ... are but premonitions of the fate that await the American people should they be deluded into a perpetuation of this institution or the establishment of another like it-Andrew Jackson

"you seem to be raging... "

That doesn't begin to define what I am.

"Your not by chance taking any of those prescription medications I see advertised on TV for depression, or anxiety are you? They are not healthy, side affects are suicide, mass shootings and rude rants on the DP."

Why, do you wish to take my guns away too?

Dumbass...

Patriot Cell #345,168
I don't respond to emails or pm's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=qo8CmO...
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution, inevitable.

just cool your jets

little man, I know for a fact if you were standing in front of me you wouldn't be making rude comments. Have some respect, nobody is impressed.

The bold effort the present bank had made to control the government ... are but premonitions of the fate that await the American people should they be deluded into a perpetuation of this institution or the establishment of another like it-Andrew Jackson

I think re4pres has a point

I think re4pres has a point and it is a point that I have been noticing all along as these politicians talk about dropping hellfire missiles on Boston cafes and Times Square.

I saw the quote below where you all are talking about "at least he got them to agree not to drone a non-combatant."

This is the thing that bothers me...what about all the innocent non-combatants in times square or at the boston cafe? It is not as if a hellfire missile doesn't take out everyone in a building.

The other thing is Rand has seem to settle with the term inniment threat. What is an inniment threat?

Supposedly the war on terror is against imminent threats. Isn't that what preemptive strikes are all about?...taking out imminent threats?

I don't think a single thing has been settled. I think the door has been left wide open to use drones on American Citizens on American soil and Americans are happy about it.

I am hoping for the best of intentions with Rand Paul, but as far as I can tell so far an imminent threat has not been defined and isn't that is what the war on terror and preemptive strikes are all about?

If anyone deserves to be called a neocon, it would be me since I have been a blind straight ticket republican my whole life...until I found Ron Paul.

...

I never said

rp4pres didn't have a point, what I've been trying to explain to him is that his anger is misplaced. Rand did nothing wrong, he did what he could achieve right now to get these drones into the public conversation and shine a light on whats going on. Rand himself said and is still saying this isn't over, the discussion has just begun. Nothing is settled, the "imminent threat" aspect isn't even settled. But now Rand has a lot of citizens concerned with these drones which gives his and our argument much more weight. Rand knows what he's doing, the answer Obama gave him doesn't satisfy him in the least.

The bold effort the present bank had made to control the government ... are but premonitions of the fate that await the American people should they be deluded into a perpetuation of this institution or the establishment of another like it-Andrew Jackson

He seemed satisfied and in agreement

with the letter from Holder unless he did not show his displeasure on public tv when the letter was read to him.

Personally, I don't want drones flying around, period. Rand seems to think it is ok for drones to fly around America and to be used in America. Why is my tax money being used to buy drones for America? I was glad to see Rand holding up the floor of the Senate. I was not glad to see the settlement. I am pretty sure as I listened to him he seemed to think there is a proper use for drones in the United States. I'd rather keep my tax than have the government buying drones with it. Did anyone ask me how I'd like my tax money spent?

...

Rand only seemed in agreement

with drones in US skies is because you can't un-invent them. They are here, their not going away anymore than nuclear weapons, tasers, or jet planes. The idea is that we have to shift the conversation to using these things in manner that doesn't infringe on peoples rights. When the people demand they be used in a certain way then they will be the same as any other technology. As Dr. Paul has said many times, a government is a reflection of its people. Drones I think are a great thing for search and rescue, possibly fighting forest fires and even manhunts. My problem with them as intelligence gathering (spying) is that, I think they are more invasive to privacy than other methods so I think a regular warrant isn't enough to justify their use. I think more probable cause should be shown and possibly more than one judge sign off on the warrant. I don't think there should be any weaponized drones in the US for any reason, I can't think of a threat scenario that scrambled jets wouldn't do a better job of dealing with. As far as the police go, I don't think they will ever have weaponized drones. Police have had helicopters for a long time and none of them are weaponized.

The bold effort the present bank had made to control the government ... are but premonitions of the fate that await the American people should they be deluded into a perpetuation of this institution or the establishment of another like it-Andrew Jackson

OK

I will hope you are right. Thank you for taking the time to give me your thoughts on the matter. I do want Rand to Stand and I would like to stand with him. I realize what he is doing is not easy.

That guy just got you to agree to drones flying over your head?

You hope he's right? He just said we can do nothing to stop it so we shouldn't try.. He just said that we should let the military conduct strikes inside the US. That Posse Comitatus is dead and we should be okay with that.

These people are neocons.. They support Rands positions because Rand has given them war and "security" through government overlords.

Patriot Cell #345,168
I don't respond to emails or pm's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=qo8CmO...
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution, inevitable.

Military Jets including Stealth Bombers, A10s and Chinooks

Fly over my head all the time. Jeeps and Army trucks roll past my house on the highway. I am thinking about cancelling my membership here. I can hardly understand people who are loving on Farrakhan and calling Zionists scum and telling me to take God out of the little box I have put him in. It is getting to be too much for me. My son didn't even have pants ready to wear for church this morning because my head is in the wrong place. What if I just raise my family and forget about all this stuff and when they drop a hellfire on our church some Sunday morning it'll be over with?

The difference is

They aren't carrying armed hellfire missiles ready to be dropped.

If you want to give up, then give up. I refuse to.

Patriot Cell #345,168
I don't respond to emails or pm's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=qo8CmO...
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution, inevitable.

Well, that guy said "I don't

Well, that guy said "I don't think there should be any weaponized drones in the US for any reason, I can't think of a threat scenario that scrambled jets wouldn't do a better job of dealing with"

So I didn't think I was agreeing that the drones should be armed.

I am glad you refuse to give up. Sometimes all of the differing opions become bewildering for me. Do you have any words about Zionists? Are they really the problem? Israel is a dot on the map. Why do some people think they are the source of all the problems?

Please use quotes so that people know what it is

you're responding too because he said other not so Liberty things in there as well. Just saying.

"Are they really the problem?"

They are a strong lobby here in the US.. That was one of the safeguards put in place.. The separation of church and state. They bring that as close to the forefront as humanly possible without declaring a theocratic country.

So to recap.. Any group that pushes to circumvent the individual rights of every human being is a problem, whether it's wrapped up in Jesus talk or not.

Patriot Cell #345,168
I don't respond to emails or pm's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=qo8CmO...
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution, inevitable.

Thanks rp4pres

I'll try to use quotes better.

"So to recap.. Any group that pushes to circumvent the individual rights of every human being is a problem, whether it's wrapped up in Jesus talk or not."

Lots of groups do that don't they? Isn't that what is wrong with our government...all the lobbyist? So why are Zionists the ones catching so much heat?

I don't think they're catching all of the heat

but I do think it could be proportionate to how much control they have on what's happening inside of government. I mean.. that's pretty much what a neocon is.. they're Zionists.. not because of their religious beliefs but the things they do while they hide behind them.

Regardless though.. this isn't the topic. The "MinURBusiness" guy does little of that if you look at his many replies to me BEFORE he came to the "I don't think drones should be used"..

See, bear.. a lot of people say things like that when they really don't mean it.. They're just using it as a way to appeal to the person they're talking to. I don't trust any one of the people that are pushing this drone issue to the side by saying "But he's getting people talking".. Hogshit..

He could have just as well got them talking by putting his foot down too. He has had many chances to solidify his base in us "Ron Paul People" and he has chosen to ride the fence.. These fence decision have real world ethical consequences. This isn't a game as many are trying to disgustingly paint it as.

Patriot Cell #345,168
I don't respond to emails or pm's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=qo8CmO...
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution, inevitable.

Don't think that for a second you murdering neocon.

That's what all of you are that condone this "acceptable" bullshit. As I just said to another of your ilk.. you're nothing more than a neocon warmongering tea partier that's condoning murder and collateral murder not ONLY overseas but here in your own country on your own people.

Patriot Cell #345,168
I don't respond to emails or pm's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=qo8CmO...
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution, inevitable.

Murdering neo-con, lmao

I've never been a republican till I registered as one to campaign and vote for Dr.Paul. Don't have any affiliation with the tea-party never had any, so what other theories do you have? You seem to be wound very tight, have you been raging on Obama's FB? Do you think your on a kill list? What is the source of the urgency I'm getting from you? What has really got your panties all in a bunch?

The bold effort the present bank had made to control the government ... are but premonitions of the fate that await the American people should they be deluded into a perpetuation of this institution or the establishment of another like it-Andrew Jackson

What's the matter.. Can't figure out why giving the military the

green light to hellfire inside US borders isn't a good thing? Maybe you're in denial.. "It'll never happen"

Sure "republican" neocon = murderer.

Patriot Cell #345,168
I don't respond to emails or pm's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=qo8CmO...
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution, inevitable.

What do you want from Rand

He got the murderous bastard to admit he didn't have the authority to drone a non-combatant US citizen on US soil. Sure that's far short of the goal but what have any of those other so-called representatives gotten done? As Rand said this is the start of the drone conversation, not the end.

The bold effort the present bank had made to control the government ... are but premonitions of the fate that await the American people should they be deluded into a perpetuation of this institution or the establishment of another like it-Andrew Jackson