13 votes

Believing in Creation, and taking a literal position on the Bible is the beginning of persecution, again!

I would say, Dr. Benjamin Carson did indeed start something...timely!

Now, with the recent release of The Bible series on The History Channel; Bill O'Reilly is leading the mocking charge from the right! Oh great; here we go!

Here's MY position/observations at present...Those believers, who were not alarmed when...
1) public opinion was being aroused to be leary or cautious of "religious fundamentalists" after 9/11...
2) they dared not dig a little deeper into the arrest and imprisonment of creationist Kent Hovind, who was simply labeled a tax cheat, irrespective of the known facts that he diligently did his homework regarding how our United States Constitution, and the IRS tax code should/would impact his faithful execution of his creation ministry...
3) former Presidential candidate and former Southern Baptist Pastor Mike Huckabee DENIED the literal six day creation account of the Bible, on a national stage, when Wolf Blitzer asked him directly and specifically if he believed; saying "I don't know, I wasn't there"(denying God & Christ's own eyewitness accounts!)....those believers...they need to WAKE UP NOW...and petition God for discernment!

We are being marginalized, criticized, pressured, and mocked openly now(which often happens, but, Bill O'Reilly has decided he will take it mainstream on the right). Right before darkness truly befalls this nation, just as it has in every other world power THREATENED with so much evidence of hypocrisy, LOVE of MONEY, and the church/state marriage which is a compromise FOR silence of dissent; our light also is about to be put out!

See, what really prompted me to write this is, that Pastor, Dr. Jeffress from First Baptist Church of Dallas was not only on O'Reilly's show last week( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvMLcBGSvo0 )to be a punching bag for Bible-deniers but, for some reason he decided to join the growing faction of celebrity pastors who won't defend a young Earth position( listen here:
The question is, will we remain silent?
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=3813832330&tar... )

Every last celebrity conservative Christian in America has been naming and claiming 2 Chronicles 7:14 for the past dozen years or so...but LOOK at what we've ended up with for political leadership! Does that mean God is NOT listening, no; I think we are still giving him lip service!(EXAMPLE: the May Day 2010 event at the Lincoln Memorial - listen to Pastor Ralph Ovadahl expose this fraud for what it was, beginning at the 32:00 of this broadcast - http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=57102226413 )

Fellow believers, those whose eyes find these words; let me forewarn you...God's enemies, Satan's counterfeits, the truly un-regenerated souls today who are professing a salvation they actually DO NOT possess; they look and speak more like you and I everyday...

Learn to discern; ask for strength, boldness, and courage in these days where compromise reigns and sin abounds...they want to shut us up...I am just one believer who has been quite alarmed since 9/11; I have been watching and pleading and standing tall in the face of so much deceit and sissy-britches mega-church ecumenism that has become intolerant of God's PLAIN truths that any elementary school child can understand(and was taught normally in public conversations, Sunday School, not mocked in our public schools up until about one generation ago!)

My exhortation to ALL, is to get discernment by using your senses and Holy Spirit led life experience to simply distrust, and VOICE that distrust of both political and clergy "leadership", those in this culture who get the MOST media facetime because they compromise the fundamentals of the faith ONCE delivered to the saints, those in society who occupy places of great influence, who clearly are nothing like the martyrs of our faith recorded in history; those who clearly are not sacrificing creature comforts derived from a bankrupted and immoral debt-based monetary system on the brink of collapse!

The latter half of Hebrews 5:14 suggests this is why we love strong teaching "... those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil." ... But beyond this ... Do as Romans 16:17-18 instruct, let's have a Matthew 23 exposure of the Christian charlatans who join the Fox News Channel and K-street pro-family groups in Washington that serve money; now casting DOUBT upon the truth of God's Word, especially as it relates to His account of the two great cataclysmic events we know as The Creation and The Flood of Noah's day!

Those verses of Romans 16 instruct; "17) Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. 18) For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple."

They sought to ensnare the simple, they prey upon our children in public schools..."instructing them in the way they should go, so that when they are old,"; they want this social order to DENY a Creator higher than Caesar...it's all "yea hath God said?"...and "ye shall be as gods"...same old trick from the garden.

I have ALWAYS said, I am NOT in favor of a Christian theocratic state; I have personally come out of that...but...the obvious mockery of the Godly, and their core beliefs as they TRUST in God's Word with respect to moral absolutes, natural laws, and the creation and the flood; this we MUST no longer remain silent about, nor hide from the public and start re-writing Christian apologetics while we are steamrolled by Zionist Sadducees, Scribes, and Pharisees!

C'mon folks; the PTB 501c3'd the churches because the KNEW their most ardent criticisms would originate and grow from within them!
Atheists and agnostics can AGREE with Bible-thumpers on this one point, can't they?




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yes

View Klaus Kinski's Jesus Christ on the web.

donvino

The Torah or Pentateuch of the Hebrew bible

Is certainly a mishmash of Egyptian religion, Hebrew oral traditions and popular fables of different semitic tribes. I am one who tends to believe that Mosis did in fact write the books.

The writing style seems similar to the Egyptian book of the dead. (I'd recommend the Wallis Budge translation if you want to check for yourself) This would make sense considering where Mosis got his education.

It also explains why some of the early stories are so derivative of the fables of other cultures in the region.

Some very devout Jews believe that it was written prior to creation, and used as a blueprint for creation by G_d.

This subject always fascinates me, thanks for posting.

total misunderstanding of translations

There are seven "periods of creation" recorded in the beginning of Genesis. Although each of these has been translated as a “day”, the Hebrew word is “yom” which simply means a period of time with a beginning and an ending. It is unlikely to be a solar day since the sun, moon and stars do not appear until the fourth “day”. That that anti-creation argument is based on ignorance, not science and if any care to spend an hour on research, modern science will debunk evolution for you. Strange to me how the Bible is mocked as a fairytale, even with it's mathematical impossible prophecies proven, yet theories such as the big bang and evolution through natural selection are accepted as fact. There is such a thing as natural selection but it has never and will never cause one species to evolve into another. That is a scientific fact.

I've got your back! This evolutionist-atheist-libertarian will

always stand up for your right to believe and worship as you wish.

No persecution here! No name-calling. (just discussion)

In liberty & peace,
Treg

Yes, please BUY this wonderful libertarian BOOK! We all must know the History of Freedom! Buy it today!

"The System of Liberty: Themes in the History of Classical Liberalism" ...by author George Smith --
Buy it Here: http://www.amazon.com/dp/05211820

This old earth creationist - disciple of Christ -

new testament socialist has got your back Treg!

no judgment here, not my job man.

peace and love,
Archie

πολλα γαρ πταιομεν απαντες ει τις εν λογω ου πταιει ουτος τελειος ανηρ δυνατος χαλιναγωγησαι και ολον το σωμα

Young earth creationism

is not something you must believe in order to be saved.

Read the Bible more.

"Once you become knowledgeable, you have an obligation to do something about it."- Ron Paul

Really

You need to Beleive Geneisis .. so the first book is wrong . .then all books are wrong

Genesis can be believed

without subscribing to young earth creationism.

"Once you become knowledgeable, you have an obligation to do something about it."- Ron Paul

is the believer ACCOUNTABLE to God's truth once it's revealed?

How else would they come to accept the Gospel? ...how can one be an effective witness for Christ, the Creator, if they DOUBT? Or, bring God's accounting of events, or His holiness and perfection, down to man's finite and limited, sin-tainted reasonings?

Like Jeffress said, "where does it stop?"(before he took the populist opinion that repudiates scripture and Romans 5; the whole death by Adam's sin part)

I prefer to sit under the preaching and teaching of FAITHFUL witnesses, and expositors of God's Word; and as I read my bible more(as you recommend), "ye shall know them by their fruits" becomes more apparent during this nation's moral and fiscal slide into bankruptcy, then vulnerability to our enemies.

Who is a better witness for Christ? The creation-denying Mike Huckabee, with all his exterior success; or me, a student of young Earth creationist evidences and arguments, suffering through the consequences of NOT doing things God's way for sixteen years after having prayed a "sinner's prayer" in high school at Young Life camp?

Is Mike Huckabee clearly "blessed of God", and I am "cursed of God"? Who exhibits the evidence, or fruit of trusting in God's Word being the power unto salvation? If I'm such a rotten witness, saved but stupid or misguided for clinging to young Earth theories and explanations; then why do I question the physics of 9/11, support Ron Paul, frolic with libertarians hostile to all religions; rather than hide inside the four walls of a church to remain brainwashed and unstained by the filthy world around me?

Are my beliefs just a crutch, as Jesse Ventura would tell me? Who am I to criticize the nobility; is that what you're really asking? Is young earth creationism a religion inside a religion?

Isn't a Bill O'Reilly smart enough to investigate/know all the sacraments,.veneration of Mary, and "hidden" stuff that the Vatican keeps just a total ruse of the OPEN trust/faith in God that Christ preached?

Making up a Christianity to suit one's intellect is really idolatry, and, that's a clear violation of the 1st commandment..I think it easier to take God at His Word, seeing that science does say the creation and the flood of Noah's day are indeed very plausible...so...I have a problem with false prophets telling me to conform to the state-supported majority opinion!

The problem...

...is when the reader of Scripture labels his particular interpretation as THE official 'God's Word' and then proceeds to bash everyone else who doesn't conform with that interpretation as denying 'God's Word' or having a dubious faith.

I'm with you on taking the Bible literally (unless it's obviously using a metaphor, etc.), but even with that stance there is a lot of room for interpretation and speculation on the details of things. Are you really suggesting that someone who posits that the earth could have been around a while in the formless and void state in Gen 1:1,2 before a literal six day cycle begins in verse 3 (i.e. they agree with you except on the overall age of the earth prior to it being lit up with Day/Night), is unaccountable to God's truth and a doubtful witness of His Gospel? Would you say the same thing about Christians who don't hold the exact same view as you on the timing of the rapture/second coming? Do you have any grace towards others on these secondary matters, without condescension?

I don't consider it condescending...

..to challenge a professing believer to dig deeper, take in OTHER positions that are less.kind, even dismissive of so much inch-deep, mile-wide popular views on creation, eschatology, and false teachers....

From the Old Testament, to the New Testament; biblical Christianity is a THINKING faith...

Deuteronomy 6:5 " And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might."

Matthew 22:37 "Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind."

Once you're in the media fishbowl, as a professing Christian "leader", or just a prominent representative of the faith(irrespective of denomination affiliation), you best have.personally studied and be ready to explain WHY you doubt clear and traditionally doctinal positions...

The appeal to authority(denominational headquarters, degreed clergymen, majority opinion, or the popularity of a famous church "father"/apologist) doesn't hold as much weight in the face of a simple reading of the text oftentimes, and, examples Christ gave of SIMPLE people who had more faith than the learned, questioning, debating among Him!

Great points...

...and I don't disagree in general with what you say.

Here's an example, though --

I appreciate that you have an admiration for Kent Hovind regarding his defense of young-earth creationism. I'm sure you're aware, though, that prior to him beginning to serve his sentence, he held a pre-tribulation view of the rapture, while he has now stated that after further study, he supports the post-trib/mid-week view of the rapture.

So, I guess I'm wondering -- has your respect for him lessened or increased based on this eschatological view of his shifting? Or do you see it as a grey area, such that you were/are willing to graciously cut him some slack, whether the position you disagree with was the former or latter one he has held?

There's nothing wrong with challenging folks on primary and even secondary topics, but my concern is if we make the secondary topics sound like they are non-negotiable, primary topics, and end up being overly insistent that others have to see it our way to be genuine.

If someone believes the Bible literally supports the possibility of an old Earth, not out of trying to perform linguistic acrobatics that stretch the text beyond credulity in order to match it up with a pre-conceived notion, but because they honestly, actually believe they see the possibility of it being a natural, literal meaning of the text, why can't we just debate that in Love, without necessarily calling into question the integrity of someone's faith in the core Gospel?

Regarding reading the text in a simple manner, I agree; on the other hand, is it not a source of divergent views when different people start off with taking different passages in the English at face-value without digging deeper, and then trying to fit whatever more difficult 'problem texts' seem to conflict with that view into the framework. One area where I've personally experienced this a lot recently is in discussions and studies on the topic of the destiny of those in hell: eternal, conscious torment vs annihilationism vs universal reconciliation. Each view starts off with certain passages as cornerstones that seem to support them with a surface reading in the English, but then have to explain how other verses fit in. The traditional view starts off with the hell texts, and then has to explain why Colossians 1 talking about all things in heaven and earth being reconciled through the peace of Christ doesn't really mean what it sounds like it means. And then the universalist view starts off with reconciliation passages like Colossians 1, etc., taking them at face value, and finds itself having to explain the 'problem' hell texts, why they don't really mean what they sound like they mean (i.e. 'aionion' in the Greek is better interpreted 'age-lasting' than 'eternal', etc., etc.)

As long as these different views hold to the core Gospel of salvation through Christ (I am the way, the truth, the life, etc.), I am willing to cut people a lot of slack, because it is understandable how they can end up with each of these views, using Scripture with face-value, surface readings, from one perspective or another.

If people start denying basic tenets of the faith, though, like Creation (in the broader sense of the word), the deity of Christ, the Virgin Birth/Incarnation, the crucifixion and resurrection, etc., that's another matter, because that is crossing into core Gospel territory.

Anyway, blabbing on here. I don't mean to sound condescending, myself, as if I'm in a position to lecture you. I certainly need to take the beams out of my own eyes in this regard...

Stop making sense already

Just like Hovind, I bought into the pre trib rapture deception, and why not, it was preached from every pulpit of every church I ever attended growing up along with being a frequent dinner table topic. And then I met Yeshua. This so called doctrine is such a flimsy contrivance that anyone who honestly approaches the issue should need about 15 minutes of serious study to discover the truth, you don't even need to crack a lexicon for Pete's sake. I'm not saying that you can't be saved and believe this garbage, many do. I am saying however, that it's a dangerous lie straight out of the pit of hell. Now who's rambling?

Anyhow, I really liked your answer above, you managed to be gracious and yet uncomprising. I met Christ as a young man of 23, He delivered me from alcoholism, drug addiction, an overwhelming and constant fear of death, and I could go on but you get the idea. I went from a total basket case to preaching on street corners nearly overnight. To make a long story short, I allowed a really bad marriage to come between me and the Lord, I walked away from my family and my God. I never lost my faith but I did spend the next 15 or so years on the run.

I recently recommitted my life to Christ and let me tell you, it's a struggle. But it's inspiring to see fellow brothers and sisters who clearly know the Word working to advance the truth of the gospel with love, and not hung up on matters like KJV only or young earth nonsense etc. The days are dark, keep shining that light. : )

πολλα γαρ πταιομεν απαντες ει τις εν λογω ου πταιει ουτος τελειος ανηρ δυνατος χαλιναγωγησαι και ολον το σωμα

The journey...

...certainly is a struggle, oftentimes from our own doing, as I can certainly attest to as well. That's encouraging to hear how you are finding your way back to Him. Recently, I've been trying to focus a little less intensely on the political realm (while still keeping a watchful eye on it), because I've found that it was distracting me too much from spending time internally, spiritually with my Creator. Ever had a season in life where you wish you could just hit pause and go spend a year in quiet contemplation, and then return? Unfortunately, as dark as the times are, I suppose we might not have that kind of luxury.

Blessings on your journey :)

Do Not

Tempt the Lord God.

donvino

Looks like the bad spirit is in some people

And they want to redefine what persecution is.

But as posted below, Jesus Christ, the Word of God, says:

Matthew 5:11
11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. 12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

So no, reviling and saying all manner of evil against you for being a Christian witness is not only persecution in the eyes of the Lord, but it means you've been blessed.

I wouldn't want to be in the place of someone envying someone else for being saved. Having no reason other than envying SALVATION instead of turning yourself and being saved.

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.

Very true...

It gets a bit tricky sometimes, though, when every particular view within the Christian fold gets reviled by those who hold every other particular view within the Christian fold. It's like a circular firing squad sometimes. But I guess history is replete with not only non-Christians persecuting Christians and vice-versa, but also Christians persecuting each other. Somewhere in that, of course, is the core Gospel of Christ (represented well in the early creeds, I think); but I think we can get too dogmatic with each other over secondary matters, as if they were the core. It all gets back to speaking the truth in Love.

Even if you take...

...the Bible literally (which I do, unless there is obvious metaphor or such being used as an illustration), I'm not sure I quite understand how anyone can be utterly dogmatic about the age of the Earth.

Look at verses 1-10 of Genesis Chapter 1, again:

[1] In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

[2] And the earth was without form and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

[3] And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

[4] And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from darkness.

[5] And God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

[6] And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

[7] And God made the firmament, and divided the waters were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

[8] And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

[9] And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

[10] And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called He Seas: and God saw that it was good.

Notice that although the heaven and the earth are created and present in verse 1, the specific labeling of Heaven and Earth as applied to the firmament and dry land occurs on Days 2 and 3, respectively. How long exactly was the initial state of the heaven and earth (formless and void) prior to the 'let there be light' statement in verse 3? Can we say for sure that verses 1 through 5 are supposed to comprise Day One? Perhaps Day One starts with verse 3?

I realize that other passages such as Exodus 20:11 say things like 'For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day...'; but perhaps this refers to the Heaven and Earth, or firmament and dry land in the state of Day 2 and Day 3, not the formless and void state of the earth in verse 1?

I am not dogmatic about what I just posited, just throwing it out there; but can we really be dogmatic and insist there is nothing beyond a strict six 24-hour days period possible here, when considering verses 1 and 2?

To me this is a similar debate as with the different views on the end times: pre-trib rapture, post-trib/mid-week rapture; pre-millenial, post-millenial, amillenial second coming; etc. Sometimes people in each of these camps will point the bony finger of indignation at the other camps and claim that there is no way the other has a leg to stand on Scripturally.

I think there's nothing wrong, of course, with having a personal conviction about which view is correct; but we also have to have a lot of grace in allowing folks to hold to the core Gospel of Christ, yet seeing room there, even literally, for multiple interpretations of the details of the the origins of everything and also the destinies of everything.

mistranslation of "days"

There are seven periods of creation recorded in the beginning of Genesis. Although each of these has been translated as a “day”, the Hebrew word is “yom” which simply means a period of time with a beginning and an ending. It is unlikely to be a solar day since the sun, moon and stars do not appear until the fourth “day”.

Yeah...

...am aware of that 'yom' argument, too. I guess I was trying to point out that even if you do pin down the 'days' to be 24 hours long, there still are multiple potential interpretations regarding the overall age of the earth, depending on when you start the clock for Day 1 (vs 1? vs 3?).

well, seems my thoughts/observation have sparked a discussion...

...for some 15 hours today on the DP!!! Not Bad!

The rub is, we're all bent on saying "NO", "we won't comply"; yet - as was said last week when Rand did his thing - how MANY times have we moved the line in the sand?

It's open season on WHY we've had enough, and WHY we know all this tyranny is anti-liberty and un-American...I'm just using the wimpy compromises of those supposedly of my ilk, and a righty's willful decision to mock the tenets and doctrines of his own professed faith to make the point that they're gunning for our thoughts...they're pushing us back once again...and, I'm not recanting; I don't give a rip what Pastors with doctorate degrees, or high-minded media Catholics do!

I know where I stand, and WHY I oppose all the crap they're shoving down my throat; so I'm just pushing back myself in written and spoken word...

It is what it is...regardless of what anyone else in this movement thinks about origins, or world history and the up's and down's of intellectualism and elightenment...these elitists are [*expletives*], let alone GROSS hypocrites and liars!

And you've chosen the public school system's teaching of

evolution to make your stand?

Who, exactly, is gunning for your thoughts?

Are you saying that the learning or teaching of evolution is unamerican?

If evolution is the only truth, would you still be against it?

Love thy enemy.

Yes it is

Watch Ben Steins Movie "expelled" .. read Slaughter of the dissidents .. and you will see if you don't believe "evolution" you won't be able to teach in public schools .. yeah sounds like freedom to me.

We should have NO state sponsered schools .. you asshat atheists can start your own schools on your frakin dime and we will see what happens

our understanding of "follow the money" alone...

...make's evolution EXTREMELY suspect...seconded by the fact that they bully the youngest of school children with "millions of years ago...dinosaurs..."; it's not a good philosophical argument...

This has to do with developing critical thinking skills, when pondering the SAME evidences, and two polar opposite worldviews are put forth(neither of which diminishes the raw talent of an individual to perform work unto their own benefit, or unto society's benefit).

Evolution Theory is a RELIGION, and, it is a government-funded bias and indoctrination tool...the ends justify the means are easily deduced in ALL forms of man-made systems of religion...I'd like to see how Biblical Christianity can be deemed harmful to a free society....biblical, not twisted Christianity!

u think kids are bullied with science?? Wow.

btw how sanctimonious is it of you people to claim god and evolution can't both exist?

what part of the bible says that god is limited in his power?

it's called "how BIG is your God"?

Watch a Hovind video, one where he spells out SIX different meanings of "evolution"..what has man ACTUALLY OBSERVED in science?

Seems young Earth creation just steps on everyone's toes...
no wonder we're being "persecuted"!!!

Everyone KNOWS God, they just don't believe His Word....gotta give it to them fundamentalists, they know how to make a ruckus, don't they???

yep

"It is what it is...regardless of what anyone else in this movement thinks about origins, or world history and the up's and down's of intellectualism and elightenment...these elitists are [*expletives*], let alone GROSS hypocrites and liars!"

I think we can all agree to that.

I am an agnostic, not a

I am an agnostic, not a Christian. I have high regard for the moral principles taught by Jesus and have respect for those Christians who genuinely try to live by them (as, I believe, Ron Paul does). But the overwhelming evidence from the dating of rocks by measuring radioactive isotopes and their daughter products is that the Earth is 4.5 to 4.6 billion years old. Rocks from the moon and meteors have similar ages. For me to believe that the Earth is only 6,000 or 10,000 or even one million years old I would have to believe that God rigged the ratios of various isotopes in rocks all over the world to make it *look* like the Earth was billions of years old, deliberately trying to fool us. But if God is willing to lie in the rocks themselves why wouldn't he be willing to lie in his Holy Book?

and we been walking the planet some 3 million years

Its interesting how the sciences are all hardening now. The science of neurobiology, microbiology, paleoclimatologists, zoology, genetic anthropology, sociobiology, ...etc are all contributing to our modern understanding of Human Nature. Even more interesting is how well libertarian ideas do and do not fit with how we understand Human Nature to be. I thought steven pinker's BLANK SLATE was excellent on this topic. Even better was Darwinian Politics by professor Paul Rubin, himself a libertarian economist. And of course there are the great books and easy to read as well, by the late Robert Ardrey.

Yes, please BUY this wonderful libertarian BOOK! We all must know the History of Freedom! Buy it today!

"The System of Liberty: Themes in the History of Classical Liberalism" ...by author George Smith --
Buy it Here: http://www.amazon.com/dp/05211820

When is the at last time

you researched this rock dating method? Did you look at how they dated the new rocks formed by Mount Saint Helens eruption .. Very interesting the "age" that they dated these. Have you looked into radio halos formed from the helium decay? So to say "rigged" when you mean the processes worked faster or differnet in the past is asine

So who is the liar now .. Looks like Men and the Asshats that believe them