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Adam Kokesh vs. Zeitgeist's Peter Joseph



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Summing up Adam and Joseph: two pompous self-loving windbags

How to sum up Adam and Joseph debating philosophy (two pompous self-loving windbags)?

"BLA DLA DLA DLA DLA DLA DLA DLA DLABLA DLA DLA DLA DLA DLA DLA DLA DLABLA DLA DLA DLA DLA DLA DLA DLA DLABLA DLA DLA DLA DLA DLA DLA DLA DLABLA DLA DLA DLA DLA DLA DLA DLA DLABLA DLA DLA DLA DLA DLA DLA DLA DLABLA DLA DLA DLA DLA DLA DLA DLA DLA!"

Can't wait for part II!

"Cowards & idiots can come along for the ride but they gotta sit in the back seat!"

Neo-communism

Peter wants central planning without government, this is anarcho-communism.

Adam should have demolished him, but didn't.

Here is Stef -

http://www.youtube.com/results?q=stefbot%20molyneux%20zeitge...

Molyneux took Zeitgeist apart

I too, liked the first Zeitgeist. His successive presentations revealed his anti-money views as being ill-informed about the significance of Mises refutation of socialism due to its inability to calculate without free market pricing to reveal where resources are most urgently, hence productively, needed. Joseph, of course, rejects such criticism, but if one wants to witness a concerted dismantling of Zeitgeist's economic fallacies see Stefan Molyneux's Zeitgeist videos/podcasts at his freedomainradio.com website.

marlow

Adam?

"a natural right to the access of natural resources"????

Say what? (16 min mark)

Adam, we have a natural right to our own Life, Liberty and the PRODUCT of our liberty which is Property, ie our actions when mixed with the material world begets property. Indeed, what is liberty in a vacuum? Its stagnation. What is liberty action in a material world but a fountain of property. Birds take actions to Live, and one of those actions results in the building of "bird property", ie nests. And they defend these nests like it was property. Indeed, its the product of their liberties. Well Man, Man is much more the busy beaver than are birds and dam building beavers for that matter. Man builds everything. He makes everything. He makes stone tools to spaceships and everything in-between, and ALL OF THAT depends upon Man's liberty. Life, Liberty & Property are our natural rights....

Yes, please BUY this wonderful libertarian BOOK! We all must know the History of Freedom! Buy it today!

"The System of Liberty: Themes in the History of Classical Liberalism" ...by author George Smith --
Buy it Here: http://www.amazon.com/dp/05211820

Wasn't much of a debate...

to me it just sounded like Adam let him ramble on for 45 minutes, occasionally making a comment.

It's a shame too, because so much of what Joseph said could have been easily refuted.

Near the end of the video though, Adam did take up the offensive and made some good points.

Check out the Laissez-Faire Journal at LFJournal.com


"The State is a gang of thieves writ large." - Murray Rothbard

a critique

getting ready for bed. saw the link, expected a lively, intellectual discussion so i grabbed a few beers and got horizontal.

now, i've only seen the first zeitgeist. i thought it was okay. didn't see the rest.

pressed play. 26 minutes in and this dude is clearly a shyster.

he drones on in the typical, hyper-complex way of not explaining anything. the kind that you get when someone wants to obfuscate their real intentions.

am i mistaken, or he is advocating technocratic (mercantile, whatever you choose) rule? guy claims that he used to be libertarian, but argues the root cause of all our problems is the competitive nature of the markets. because voluntary, mutually beneficial interactions in a free market are really evil, aren't they?

maybe you just don't understand because you're not as enlightened as him.

he's really just boo-hooing that you actually have to produce something in order to survive.

also, somehow actually believes money is irrelevant. (did he just say, "neutralizing the market economy as fast as possible?" yes, he did.) i guess since he mentioned mises, we must assume he has absorbed his knowledge and has progressed beyond it.

"Dr. Hoenikker used to say that any scientist who couldn't explain to an eight-year-old what he was doing was a charlatan."

- Kurt Vonnegut's "Cat's Cradle"

put it this way: the entirety of human knowledge is easily understandable by even the most foolish of fools. it derives from logic. if someone is confounding you, you're getting scammed.

ole joeseph is selling you a used car, folks.

(that said, thanks sharpsteve for sharing! i look at this as a positive criticism.)

He believes in the Star Trek

He believes in the Star Trek world scenario. Maybe in a couple thousand years that'll happen.

The word "Sustainability" is

The word "Sustainability" is an Agenda 21 concept that has hidden meaning you are not allowed to know about. If you can accept the concept that the Planet Earth is "Self Sustaining" in the truest sense of those words and will be around a long long time after people are gone from the planet, you will be better off. Human nature will never change. It never has and it never will. So far the best way to deal with this fact is use the US Constitution as it is currently written to maintain reasonable order, get rid of the un-ratified 16th amendment, and start using the 7th Amendment a lot more.

PS
You can drown every man, woman, and child on planet Earth in Lake Superior, and it wouldn't raise the water level an inch.

No kidding - "sustainability" is my new bugaboo

I am trying to teach people about aquaponics and permaculture. You know, sustainable ways to farm. Now I have to find a NEW word, because they have tainted that one.
As for the Lake scenario, I'm game to do some experiments. Lets start with about 535 people and see what happens...?

Love or fear? Choose again with every breath.

Adam comes off as very much

Adam comes off as very much refined and I will probably watch him more.

About a year ago, I watched the first half hour of Zeitgeist, solely because of its promotion on this website. I had long ago read and watched other material that that similarly pointed out flawed beliefs in our society. I felt that it was a rambling criticism without any proposed solutions.

Watching this interview, I now see that Peter Joseph is a statist. Through his criticism of voluntaryism and free market capitalism, he acknowledges that some group must be annointed to control the unannointed. Peter and other statists complain about the system we have and offer up an alternative system of state control made up of perfectly moral people who actually know "the best for society".

Ironically, these people think that anarchists are promoting an unrealistic utopian society.

So funny.

In 2007, when I finally googled Ron Paul... I joined the ronpaulforums. There, about every hour someone would join, and say they had joined because they had just seen Zeitgeist, so my son watched it. He sat my husband and I down and insisted "Watch it." Our political interest in Ron Paul suddenly became a fight for truth.
Joseph does seem to be a bit creepy now, but back then... he deserves a LOT of credit for waking people up.

Love or fear? Choose again with every breath.

two totally different movies!

original 'Zeitgeist', excellent..

'Zeitgeist-moving forward', (and all its spawns that are in collaboration with this venus project whoo whoo)
is, IMO, some very creepy crap!

(forced myself to watch it all the way thru and now have a creepy feeling its purpose is to re-direct viewers AWAY from the excellent original and down the whole wrong path!)

Loved this interview

Now I am 100% convinced these men are both shills. You seemed liked the real deal Kokesh, but after treating PJ Merola with kid gloves it is quite clear who you are repping.

Adam gets a bad rap for speaking his mind.

Then he's never forgiven by people he's pissed off. If you've been paying attention he's been learning from those mistakes. Good back and fourth here.

The question I keep asking the Zeitgeist movement is: WHO sets all these controls. That's the X-factor they always talk around...

Seems clear to me

One is likely suppose to donate as much money as possible to the Zeitgeist Movement and the we can truly become part of a money-free society ;-) Looks like L. Ron Hubbard lives again!

Nice comment, vw. I too have

Nice comment, vw. I too have seen Adam improve. Part of that improvement, from what I've watched, has been his abandonment of advocating cyborg living, technology that automates humanity. This interview is a conversation. Conversation produces learning. Excellent conversation, Adam.

vw, your question to the Zeitgeist movement -- WHO...controls? -- is my question to who promotes gold, silver and ANYthing else as currency globally because this promotion necessitates system (here, globally), system being something opposite unbound, independent and individualistic, states that position persons who propose to trade with each other the least obstructed view, or least difficult location, to reach fairness (for each other).

Yes, gold bugs and any other central currency bug sidesteps the issue control, which involves ownership. Control was, is and always will be issue numero uno in life.

The only person I'm aware of who intends to answer who controls those metals is Thomas Woods. I expect, though, researching this information is long, deep and far. So, likely it'll take a long time before he produces the video discussing what he discovered. Meanwhile, it's logical to buy gold and silver to hedge against inflation but to understand that because of how the world works these metals are global traps. So, promotion of these metals should come with education: Be aware the trap and that what we should want is a sovereign currency for our country.

School's fine. Just don't let it get in the way of thinking. -Me

Study nature, not books. -Walton Forest Dutton, MD, in his 1916 book whose subject is origin (therefore what all healing methods involve and count on), simple and powerful.

You might be ready to grasp this...

http://www.bart-mart.com/how.mp3
http://www.bart-mart.com/how.pdf
http://www.bart-mart.com/vincent

What we really need are open source credit systems (which are simple to do now thanks to computers and the internet).

Central control of currencies SHOULD become obsolete. The only purpose for paper FED NOTES is so if you're a farmer you don't have to carry a cow or a few chickens around in your pocket.

There is NO REASON we can't wrestle what is left of THEIR control back... and that is by a complete exit of THEIR FIAT monetary system.

I'm not going to sit around and await the next SLAVE-BASED monetary system they come up with. I intend to act to make that system unfeasible due to alternatives like bart-mart being available.

Once people are FREE of fiat they will never know how they managed to live life WITH it. By the way just in case there are those who fear I intend to take over the global monetary system... Bart-Mart's "hands on" educational potential shows people how to manage their own private credit systems... eventually making the bart-mart site itself... obsolete.

I believe that was the conclusion

behind this discussion when view at both angles. Under Voluntarism the resource based economy is not enforced by one or group of individuals under the Non-Aggression Principle. The WHO will have to be Mother Nature meanwhile the HOW will be through Personal Freedom. Great ideas seem radical when they are presented before their time.

His name is Edward Snowden

What is Capitalism?
http://youtu.be/yNF09pUPypw

Woah man

this is deep. I felt like both these fine gentlemen were reading my mind stating answers as I was thinking of the question. good vid

His name is Edward Snowden

What is Capitalism?
http://youtu.be/yNF09pUPypw

Good Conversation

I think Peter is talking over most people's heads but then, I find that the documentary zeitgeist tends to piss a lot of die hard set in their ways brainwashed people off anyway so it doesn't matter. I found zeitgeist one and two to be very informative personally. I know Christians that hate it. Hah. Go figure.

skippy

The theories on religion...

in Zeitgeist affected me deeply. I don't know if the ideas presented are entirely valid but viewing Christian beliefs as myths based on cosmology made more sense to me than any religious teachings ever had.

I Hold No Religious Loyalties

I am a member of no Church and choose not to refer to myself as a "Christian" or really anything other than a spiritual-seeker of Truth, however I feel it is my responsibility to share that the religious portion of Zeitgeist 1 was largely inaccurate, particularly with regards to the list of other deities that supposedly shared the features of Christ before his time. Here's a good source for you to examine if you want to do a bit more critical research: http://conspiracies.skepticproject.com/articles/zeitgeist/pa...

There is no higher end than the total liberation of the human being: mind, body and spirit.

Thanks for the link!

Like I said, I didn't know if the views were completely valid so I would never try to push these beliefs on someone (despite my personal liking of them) without verifying with my own research. It's good to see some alternative info on this particular part of the movie. It certainly gives some broader perspective on the whole zeitgeist movement/agenda. No matter how good a philosophy sounds, it should still be based on facts rather than propaganda (not that I ever bought into the zeitgeist movement...obviously, being a libertarian).

Early church theologians said these were signs of the approachin

Early church theologians said these Pre-Christ myths and deities were signs of the approaching Christ, not much different from the prophecies of the messiah in the Old Testament, the primary difference being the latter was inspired by God and the former was a flawed representation by man.

According to Joseph, this would be a deceptive tool of power by cunning priestly elites.

According to me, this was a different world view by learned men who lived in a very different world than today.

Seeing how easily fabricated myths fold in recent history -- the cultural revolution in China, where huge lies led to mass destruction, only to collapse within days of decree, or the whole Soviet period, in which every person knew at all hours the myths they were being told were lies -- myths constructed by the elites for purposes of power do not stand the test of time.

"Cowards & idiots can come along for the ride but they gotta sit in the back seat!"

Very interesting link...

Thanks, Truth! While I appreciate the corrections of the ancient Egyptian religionet al. vs. the story of the bible, I still regard all religions, and especially christianity, as pure hocum. The connection with the astological observations is far more plausible than anything else, regardless of the slight mistakes pointed out in your link.
I would put great blame on the enslavement of men toward King James, as he "translated" this storybook into the brainwashing tool it is today. If I recall correctly, the Old Testiment describes Jesus as being vehimently opposed to any organized religion...why would modern men still follow these stories? Fear...plain and simple. We're taught that if you don't follow this, you'll burn in hell or some awful stuff will befall you in life.
If man just needs to worship someone or something to keep himself from feeling so small and alone, I'd have to say the American Indians had things about right. Just my opinion....

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BC
Silence isn't always golden....sometimes it's yellow.

"The liberties of a people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." - Patrick Henry

Some of Peter's claims about

Some of Peter's claims about Christianity are actually about Catholicism but people like to assume the two are one in the same. The NT story has nothing to do with astrology or cosmology or otherwise. The "End of the Age" has nothing to do with Aquarius and everything to do with the End of the Old Covenant and the "new age" of the New Covenant. This is well explained for anyone who puts in the time to understand it.

Can you please explain...

about the "new" and "old" covenant? I thought Mr. Joseph's explanation of the ages was spot-on!...and for the first time in my life, the story made sense...for me it was one of those forehead slapping moments!! LOL I for one, do not differenciate between Catholocism and other christian/judeo religions...Educate me, Zachnap!

------------------
BC
Silence isn't always golden....sometimes it's yellow.

"The liberties of a people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." - Patrick Henry

Catholicism is basically

Catholicism is basically occultist paganism with a Christian wrapper. The last vestiges of the Roman empire reorganized and due to the popularity of Christianity took it and melded it with the various astrology-centric pagan religions. Thus, all of the astrological sun symbolism etc. in "Christian" (actually Catholic) art. Joseph probably knows this but his theory is being presented to people unfamiliar with biblical Christianity who think religion is about control. Actually, Jesus and his message were the "Punk Rock" of that day - he was attempting to end organized religion and to allow a direct communion between the individual and Yahweh. The Pharisees and Priest class wanted the people to come to them for righteousness. The people had to depend on the Temple ceremonies to temporarily cleanse them. Jesus and the New Covenant is about decentralizing the "power" and glorifying the spiritual state of individual.

When Yahweh gave to Moses the

When Yahweh gave to Moses the Ten Commandments on Mt. Sinai, thus began the Age of the Law. This was the Covenant upon which the "Jews" were bound in spiritual marriage to Yahweh. This covenant is referred to as the Old Covenant (or Mosaic Covenant) and established the 12 tribes. Under the Old Covenant (Age of the Law) there were various Temple-centered ceremonial processions involving animal sacrifice and feasts, etc. This covenant, however, was not perfect in that it could not redeem mankind from sin. The prophets in the Old Testament (the story of the times of the Old Covenant-OC) foresaw and spoke of a time when God would make a New Covenant with his people, one which would redeem man from his separation with Yahweh. This time was the "End Times" or the "End of the Age" when the Old Covenant would "wax away and vanish" and mark the establishing of the New Covenant.

After the reign of Solomon (who oversaw the construction of the first Temple), the Kingdom of "Israel" was separated into two kingdoms, Judah and Israel. Repeatedly through the OT, the Jews/Hebrews broke the OC and twice were brought into captivity by other nations. Eventually, Israel was cut-off from their communion with Yahweh (spiritually divorced) and dispersed to the Gentiles (those who were not descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob). Under this prophesied New Covenant, the Israelites would once again come into communion with God, and the rest of the Gentile nations with them.

Prior to the time of Jesus, Yahweh grew displeased with Judah because she became spiritually adulterous, worshiping other gods and corruption of the priest class, pharisees, etc. When Jesus came his mission was to gather the "lost sheep of the house of Israel" and to make manifest the New Covenant. Judah rejected this covenant, mainly they were jealous that Yahweh would redeem Israel as they believed they were the chosen "son" (thus the parable of the Prodigal Son). They believed they were justified by keeping the Law of Moses. But Jesus was preaching a message of forgiveness (the message of the New Covenant Age) not of condemnation under the Law (the way of thinking in the Old Age). Jesus then in Matthew 23 and in other places delivered the verdict of guilt on Judah for all the righteous blood shed on the Earth from Abel to Zechariah.

The sign of the End of the Age (end of the OC) was given by Jesus in Matthew 24 and 25. At the End of the Age, Jesus was going to return to deliver Judgement on Judah for its guilt and destroy the Temple (the symbol for the Mosaic Covenant system). The mission of Jesus was the beginning of the End of the Age and the Apostles and disciples were given the mission to spread the Gospel (New Covenant) to the "World" (aka Great Commission). Once this was complete the "End" would come. Paul confirmed in multiple occasions that they had fulfilled that commission and they were expecting the "End" to come (i.e., the final judgment on Judah to redeem the righteous blood, the destruction of the Temple, and the full establishment of the New Covenant). Most Christians disagree with what I will say here, but this occurred in 70 AD when the Romans conquered Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple once and for all. Since that time we have been living in the "New Age" (not the occult New Age we hear about) or New Covenant Age. Most Christians have been led to believe we are still waiting for this age to occur and are thus being setup for the coming deception.

The Ages spoken of in the bible are clearly not some secret meaning of Age of Pisces or Age of Aquarius. But because Peter Joseph doesn't understand the bible or is intentionally misleading people he takes a few of relatively insignificant and disconnected passages and spins them into this story with no basis in biblical eschatology (study of end times).

Let me know if this is helpful.

Thanks, Zachnap

It amazes me how many different interpretations of the same story can be had! Based on what I gather from your above explanations, israel was and continues to be the center of world strife. If there is a God, would be be pleased if we just nuked israel and erased all that "badness"? Surely God would want his children to man-up against evil...Jesus taught to turn the other cheek...but he also didn't want people to be victims. What are your thoughts?
Personally, I view the Bible as a collection of fables and allegories meant to teach social lessons to the uneducated and uncivilized tribes of 1500 years ago...to teach the masses how to get along and not just slaughter the neighboring villagers for their well water...I also view "religion" and the social cancer that has plagued mankind for centuries. It is a creation of evil and corrupt men as a means to "rule by fear" over the illiterate masses of days long ago. Religion made "The Church" more powerful than standing armies or kings, for if you question the word of God, you'll burn in eternal damnation....pretty scarry stuff for those that believe in it! To me, I just don't understand how anyone can believe these biblical stories are literal and factual. But, as a Libertarian, I also strongly believe, "to each, his own!". My skin crawls, however, when the christian zealots start protesting and demanding that everyone else live by their belief-system..ie. abortion, gay rights, gambling, booze, etc. This I have a serious problem with! Vive Liberte!

------------------
BC
Silence isn't always golden....sometimes it's yellow.

"The liberties of a people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." - Patrick Henry