-10 votes

UPDATE: How Would We Handle the Unintended Consequences of Banning Abortion?

UPDATE:
I'm done defending facts and asking questions on this thread. Unfortunately, very few facts were given by the "pro-lifers" who want government intervention into people's private lives. It's obvious that people are just too *comfortable* with their own beliefs and are unable or unwilling to think beyond them. This was a very valid question framed in the context of reality, any reasonable person can see that. My last point would be this...not only would Banning Abortion create MORE GOVERNMENT and MORE GOVERNMENT DEPENDENCY it would also INCREASE CRIME. These are the *facts* regardless of how uncomfortable they make you feel.


__________________________________________________________________
This thread is not about the morality of abortion, there's another thread for that.

http://www.dailypaul.com/278723/rand-paul-introduces-life-at...

Since Roe v. Wade there have been an estimated 55 million abortions.

If all of those babies were "saved" ...

Who would take care of them if the families couldn't?

Should crack addicts and unfit mothers be forced by the state to give birth?

Basically, in the long run, aren't we just creating more government dependency if we force mothers to have babies that they can't take care of?

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If you don't like what I

If you don't like what I wrote, give me proof that the govt has not made taking life via abortion respectable. Even President Obama himself said he doesn't want his children punished by having a baby. Look at the comments. People are more worried about deadbeat fathers than the unborn child, who if he would be able to talk would probably say that he would do with out a father if it meant that he could live out his life and decide for himself which path he would make. Who has the right to speak for him and then use the ultimate force against him?

No, are you?

BTW have you heard of the black market?

Do you really think the government making something illegal ends that activity??

Many of those abortions still would have occurred and many women would have died along with their babies.

No one wants more abortions btw, not even evil liberals!

Of course I don't think

Of course I don't think abortion will end no matter how many laws there are in the world. But I'm talking about moral hazards. Whenever the govt gets involved, serious unexpected repercussions and consequences occur. The government made abortion respectable. As always with misguided govt interference, personal responsibility goes out the window. A society without personal responsibility declines. The signs of that decline are all around us.

Freakonomics


http://youtu.be/zk6gOeggViw

- Grow Mushrooms at Home
http://subfarms.com

But crime didnt go down in the 90's

our prison population has sky rocketed, been doing so since the 60's.

we have a large prison population because

there is a lot of $$ in it and because if you don't lock up all the non-violent criminals then we would need jobs for all of them and the unemployment rate would skyrocket.

Crime DID go down in the 90's. It's a fact.

And it wasn't just because cops were doing a good job at locking people up.

That's silly.

Lock people up because it's cheaper than unemployment?

Are all your replies reflective of your ideas or are you just being the devil's advocate?

tell that to the riots that were going on in the 90's

or the mass murders.

what the heck are you talking about? lol

.

Pre-emptive crime fighting, huh?

Same ethics as bombing a nation to eliminate possible future terrorist threats.

Quite a difference in birth control and bombing kids

You trying prove a point by saying they are the same, tells me that you are intellectually unable to carry on a discussion about this.

Have a good day.

Oh, so abortion is now "birth control," huh?

Did you even watch the video?

The theory was presented that since many abortions were in low economic, high crime populations that the incidence of crime dropped because there were fewer children born into unfavorable circumstances. This theory assumes that the children would grow up to be criminals. Thus, killing them before they have a chance to commit even the slightest crime IS like (and worse than) our pre-emptive war strikes.

Racist Margaret Sanger was not so pro choice

Margaret Sanger, the founder of Planned Parenthood, is often hailed as a champion of women’s rights in historical texts and classes. However, chronically neglected is her true disdain for minority groups in America and how she saw birth control as a way of limiting the populations of those she deemed unworthy of bearing children, even going so far as to advocate that married couples must submit applications in order to have children!
Planned Parenthood Founder Margaret Sanger. Sanger published articles in her newsletter, the ”Birth Control Review,” that depicted her opinions that certain groups of people should have “never should have been born” and that birth control was intended to “create a race of thoroughbreds,” and ensure that society had “more children from the fit, less from the unfit.”
Eugenics-advocate groups like the American Eugenics Society, of which Sanger was a listed member until 1956, suggested that the government should consider putting birth control chemicals in the food and water supplies in certain areas of the nation, specifically in urban areas that were dominated by minority groups. Sanger even suggested imposing a law that would disallow women from having children without first obtaining a permit from the government—a permit that would good for only one baby—and if approved, the couple would receive an antidote to counter the effects of the involuntarily ingested birth control chemicals.
The Planned Parenthood founder made her views even more blatantly obvious in a letter she wrote to a woman named Katherine Dexter McCormick in 1950, saying she thought that “…there should be national sterilization for certain dysgenic types of our population who are being encouraged to breed and would die out were the government not feeding them.” McCormick was very wealthy and she later went on to assist Sanger in developing and funding the birth control pill.
That’s funny, because Planned Parenthood never mentions any of these views upon which they were founded in 1942. Although they honor Margaret Sanger annually (with the “Maggie Award”), they conveniently pick and choose which of her values to publicly celebrate and which to sweep under the rug. They would never consider condemning the twisted ideologies of this woman.
However, Sanger’s opinions are still apparent today in Planned Parenthood, and the true intention of birth control is still deliberately hidden under the guise of “women’s liberation.” Their most recent epitome of this was portrayed when Planned Parenthood built the largest abortion facility in the western hemisphere in the center of four heavily minority areas; they blatantly showed that they still to this day target minority groups and continue to play out Sanger’s intentions for the organization: http://liveaction.org/blog/racist-planned-parenthood-founder...

jhon

can you show proof of her saying this stuff??

your "cut and pasting" is really getting old and it's disrespectful to the other people trying to have a real discussion.

Again, can you please provide proof that this and the other claims you have made below are true?

Margaret Sanger was a racist, and that's putting it mildly.

“We should hire three or four colored ministers, preferably with social-service backgrounds, and with engaging personalities. The most successful educational approach to the Negro is through a religious appeal. We don’t want the word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population, and the minister is the man who can straighten out that idea if it ever occurs to any of their more rebellious members.”
– Margaret Sanger’s December 19, 1939 letter to Dr. Clarence Gamble, 255 Adams Street, Milton, Massachusetts. Original source: Sophia Smith Collection, Smith College, North Hampton, Massachusetts. Also described in Linda Gordon’s Woman’s Body, Woman’s Right: A Social History of Birth Control in America . New York: Grossman Publishers, 1976.

Check out the Laissez-Faire Journal at LFJournal.com


"The State is a gang of thieves writ large." - Murray Rothbard

.

.

Check out the Laissez-Faire Journal at LFJournal.com


"The State is a gang of thieves writ large." - Murray Rothbard

and why does it matter who she is?

she didn't invent the abortion!

I'm not trying to argue with you...

you asked for proof her making racist remarks, so I provided it for you.

Check out the Laissez-Faire Journal at LFJournal.com


"The State is a gang of thieves writ large." - Murray Rothbard

thanks for the info Josh

.

She did not invent abortion but she is the fouder of

planned parenthood. And she is behind bringing abortion, birth control, and sterilization to the Us and propagandizing women into doing it to get rid of a race she deemed undesirable being the black race.

jhon

Her own writing

Try the following to get you started:

http://www.nyu.edu/projects/sanger/webedition/app/documents/...

Michael, the Archangel, defend us in battle. Mary, Our Mother, protect us under your mantle.

Abortion is a symptom...

... of a much greater problem, and this problem is at the root of many of the current issues we have. What is the problem? Well, government oppression of personal liberty which leads to repression of personal empowerment in the individual, of course!

The way I see it, the government has destroyed the vitality of the human soul. Why are there always unintended consequences when the government gets involved in something? Because that's what happens when you try to take shortcuts and achieve what you want by making the ends justify the means. It is the route taken by the impatient to get what they want on a superficial level without having to do the hard work that will result in others truly embracing their ideas.

People are waking up to this. I think that's why the liberty movement is gaining steam. Even people who aren't awake yet can sense on some level that something just isn't right. It's just a matter of shaking them out of fear which keeps them clinging to the notion of government as the cure. The cure is liberty, government is the disease.

I'm reaching up and reaching out.
I'm reaching for the random or what ever will bewilder me.
And following our will and wind we may just go where no one's been.
We'll ride the spiral to the end and may just go where no one's been.
Spiral out.

I Like Your Comment

but I think the problem is that Government dissolves consequences. People are allowed to make bad decision like spending their money unwisely, dropping out of school, not working, unprotected sex ect. and the government protects them from suffering the consequences.

If the government wasn't there to erase the consequences of people's bad decisions then people would be forced to make better decisions. Of course not everyone would but I think most would. The OP suggesting that if abortions were illegal we would have 55 million unwanted children is false bc many people would choose to use birth control or not have sex to avoid getting pregnant.

Thanks

I absolutely agree with you about the govt dissolving consequences. I think it's also a little more than that as well. All their regulations and controls and constant interference have sucked the life out of the people. I'm of the opinion that more people than ever are struggling to find purpose in their lives. It probably would have been more accurate for me to say that the disease is rampant fear, and government is the instrument used as a means of maintaining an illusion of control for the fearful. The problem becomes circular because the more control is used, the worse the unintended consequences become and out of fear people insist on more control and round and round we go! Govt becomes heroin to the fearful and they end up chasing the dragon.

As far as the 55 million unwanted children figure, I mean, it's really hard to say what the actual numbers might be. It might not be that high, but then again what numbers might increase? Deaths from black market abortions? Babies born premature and/or with fetal alcohol syndrome/chemical dependencies (I so dislike the term "crack babies" :( )? I think the main point the OP was trying to make is that merely making it illegal will not solve the problem and we need to consider what problems we might end up causing in our haste to feel liked we've "fixed" the abortion issue.

Anywho, thanks for your input! :)

I'm reaching up and reaching out.
I'm reaching for the random or what ever will bewilder me.
And following our will and wind we may just go where no one's been.
We'll ride the spiral to the end and may just go where no one's been.
Spiral out.

an estimated 55 million have been aborted

so they obviously didn't "use birth control" or abstain.

"The OP suggesting that if abortions were illegal we would have 55 million unwanted children is false bc many people would choose to use birth control or not have sex to avoid getting pregnant."

my point is

that if abortions were not an option and people had to keep the baby and live with the consequences of their actions they would make better decisions. They dont use birth control because their is another option if they get pregnant.. abortion.

I see your argument, but...

I don't know that most people think, "We don't have to be careful because we can always just get an abortion." I think for a majority the decision comes afterward in the "Oh SHIT!" phase. The problem is they don't think it'll happen to them to begin with, then when it does they weigh their options. That being said, making it completely illegal would reduce the numbers of overall abortions, however I don't think it would have much effect on the number of unwanted pregnancies and THAT is what the focus should be on.

I'm reaching up and reaching out.
I'm reaching for the random or what ever will bewilder me.
And following our will and wind we may just go where no one's been.
We'll ride the spiral to the end and may just go where no one's been.
Spiral out.

information on abortion

They were stolen from their homes, locked in chains and taken across an ocean. And for more than 200 years, their blood and sweat would help to build the richest and most powerful nation the world has ever known. But when slavery ended, their welcome was over. America’s wealthy elite had decided it was time for them to disappear and they were not particular about how it might be done. What you are about to see is that the plan these people set in motion 150 years ago is still being carried out today. So don’t think that this is history. It is not. It is happening right here, and it’s happening right now through abortion, birth control sterilization, and forced eugenics. source: Black Genocide in the 21st century: http://www.maafa21.com/watch-online/?key=87750053

jhon

No one in America is forcing blacks

to have abortions. So let's drop the constant harping on this. All races are aborting. I am not surprised that eugenicists are focused on certain groups. But those groups need to wise up.

well, step one

Is to make sure that the father of all children is known, and that the father is contributing to the care of their children. I'd even go so far as to say that if dad gets his girlfriend knocked up, and she is dependent on public programs, then dad has to work community service to pay for the public benefits paid out. Basically the solution is personal responsibility, since the welfare system has destroyed the community incentive to care for your children, it will ahve to be replaced by some sort of law enforced incentive.

Josh Brueggen
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