-10 votes

UPDATE: How Would We Handle the Unintended Consequences of Banning Abortion?

UPDATE:
I'm done defending facts and asking questions on this thread. Unfortunately, very few facts were given by the "pro-lifers" who want government intervention into people's private lives. It's obvious that people are just too *comfortable* with their own beliefs and are unable or unwilling to think beyond them. This was a very valid question framed in the context of reality, any reasonable person can see that. My last point would be this...not only would Banning Abortion create MORE GOVERNMENT and MORE GOVERNMENT DEPENDENCY it would also INCREASE CRIME. These are the *facts* regardless of how uncomfortable they make you feel.


__________________________________________________________________
This thread is not about the morality of abortion, there's another thread for that.

http://www.dailypaul.com/278723/rand-paul-introduces-life-at...

Since Roe v. Wade there have been an estimated 55 million abortions.

If all of those babies were "saved" ...

Who would take care of them if the families couldn't?

Should crack addicts and unfit mothers be forced by the state to give birth?

Basically, in the long run, aren't we just creating more government dependency if we force mothers to have babies that they can't take care of?



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I had the pleasure of horseback riding at a ranch last summer

the guide was the son of a share cropper in town. He said his dad was so poor, but would never get his own property. His family was so poor a man in town who owned a store used to bring school shoes to them every year. That man grew up. He ended up being a facility manager for a large corporation. He came back home to his small town and saw the man's daugher (the man who had given them shoes all those years) eating in a restaurant. He went to her table and publicly thanked her. He knew where his shoes came from. They came from someone in his town who cared about him and his family. Oh and the guide, he has his own horse ranch. In America when the Prosperity is not stolen from the people, the people are able to prosper.

Look at Ben Carson. He says he came from a single parent poverty stricken home. His mom was a house keeper and noticed that the rich people had their kids reading all the time. She knew enough to get her son to read. He is a brain surgeon now. The government did not do that for him. We have kids in our community graduating from high school who can’t even read. That is inexcusable after 12 years. How many people who completed an 8th grade education in a 1 room school house where all the grades were taught together by a single teacher could read before they graduated?

A society that cares for one another will care for one another. It is called "Christian Charity" by some. That word charity in the King James Bible is translated to the modern English word “love.” Some call it philanthropy. Some call it the Golden Rule. When a government steals from the people to redistribute wealth it is not charity or philanthropy or the golden rule. It is theft. A society based on theft is one that murders it’s unborn. That same government that steals also murders at home and abroad on our dime. Communities and families will and can take care of their own. Some may have a harder time, but guess what, in a free society people reap the consequences of their behavior. When people reap the consequences of their behavior on a level playing field they will behave better.

There is a gal going to our church. She and her daughter got kicked out of her brother-in-law’s home. Neither she nor her daughter got a job. They are now living with a lady from our church who already had an unwed mother living with her as she was called by the local pro-life clinic to help. Anyways, back to the mother who didn’t work. It was Christmas time. She asked me for money so she could get her daughter a gift. Not only did I give her money, I was also able to speak to her about working. You see, the lady she is living with got kicked out of her house by her husband and has been working at a meat packing plant since then. Has her own place and her own car. I was able to help the unemployed lady see that if L*** had not gotten a job, L*** would be in no position to help her. The lady now has a job. People helping people in real ways and with real words make a difference. Anonymous government checks in the mail and food stamps sold for cash at a lesser dollar value to get contraband do not help. It enables. IMO the Government cannot help. People can help.

Social Security is supposed to be a mark of that good society that takes care of its poor. Social Security is a Ponzi scheme. When people give away their responsibility to care for themselves they get taken advantage of.

Why should we trust the government to do anything right at this point? What kind of record do they have for doing right by the people?

I listened to this this morning. I highly recommend it for information if you are interested: http://www.dailypaul.com/278719/catherine-austin-fitts-the-l... . The interview is jam packed with economic info. I have listened to it twice already today to try to absorb it all.

I know that was an earfull. I am supposed to be doing taxes. Can you tell if I want to do my taxes lol :)

...

Well said.

.

Booo

I wasn't expecting typical left wing social engineering when I clicked on this thred. I thought this was going to be about how options are the best solution and laws can't regulate morality. I think abortion is a problem that doesn't get solved with laws, but to say that society is better because someone was never born is illogical at best. Making abortion illegal only means that it will be done more, and in a dangerous fashion. Using those resources isntead, to give better options to the "unwanted" would save more babies and give them better lives. We don't wan't more trash-can babies, more aborted babies, or more laws. We need more resources for women who can't care for the baby they are carrying.

Free market capitalism isn't right for America because it works better. It's right because it's free (and it works better).

Down with collectivist religious dogma.

Free people should procreate based on their ability to feed their children. People should use all available technology to prevent severe deformity, like Dawn syndrome.

There is no individual liberty in a collectivist religious dogma or miracles. Love for an universal neighbor is the same love for humanity, fratenity, or society - collectivism. Libertarians must reject any introduction of religious morality into public life.

You cannot build a free society and multiply the poor and crippled at the same time. Otherwise, you will end up as Sarah Palin whose first intention in 2008 was to pass the law for the government to financially help parents with Dawn syndrome kids.

Sarcasm?

Finally glad to meet a fellow human that understands that anyone who burdens another should be eliminated. I run over every pedestrian that crosses the street too slowly. They infringe my freedom of movement. And those "Dawn" kids. Oh my. Just too ugly for my eyes.

The fact

that you do not understand basic principles of individualism is sad. I wonder how can you support Libertarian movement except barking at bankers, Zionists and flouride.

Who said I supported any "Libertarian movement?"

And if this is the sort of individualism that you currently believe in, I hope that your friends and family do not hold it as well, because if you fall sick, get old or otherwise become a useless eater you may not have the luxury of changing your ideas and creating a world that can see beyond it's own table.

If I was truly selfish libertarian I would not bark at bankers, zionists or fluoride poisoners. I would admire them for cunningly securing their own welfare without giving into silly moral constraints. :-)

You mean all my mom friends who adopt

wouldn't have to fly to the other side of the world and spend thousands and thousands of dollars and could adopt right here?

They do that because adoption is expensive in the litigious USA.

I know a mom who has taken custody of a 13 year old who's mom is an addict. The kid happened to be visiting the church, and before she's know's it she's got another kid. She had the lawyer write in that she would be homeschooling - not going to fight the battle of having issues with public school deprogramming.

I know another mom who adopts Down's. I know another that just adopted three girls from Kenya - she already has three and just found out she's pregnant! Life is exciting for those that embrace it!

After many of these women have babies, many will keep them. I know I did and it changed my life for the better. The best part about being a teen mom is that when you get older, everyone thinks you're the big sister and not the mom. Other perks are gettting your figure back, learning about what's really important in life and not wasting time on the rat race hamster wheel the Elites have set up.

These 55 million would be somewhere doing something - like propping social security up!

thank you for your post

i enjoyed reading it. we definitely need to relax adoption laws and get kids the parents the need and deserve.

Great post.

Thanks. Real life solutions with insight.

solution

There is a lack of adoptable babies because abortion is legal. Over two million couples are waiting to adopt babies, and only 134,000 US children are available to be adopted as of June 2002. [28] [29] The percentage of infants given up for adoption has declined from 9% of those born before 1973 to 1% of those born between 1996 and 2002 (447 KB) . [53] Instead of having the option to abort, women should give their unwanted babies to people who can not biologically conceive. Selective abortion based on genetic abnormalities (eugenic termination) is overt discrimination. Physical limitations don’t make those with disabilities less than human. Abortion is an instrument of genocide against African Americans. Black women are 4.5 times as likely as white women to have an abortion. [30] 1,876 black babies are aborted every day. Between 1882 and 1968, 3,446 Blacks were lynched in the US. In less than three days in 2010 more black babies are killed by abortionists. The abortion industry makes an estimated $831 million annually. [32] An abortion can cost anywhere from around $350 to more than $1,000. [33] Abortion entrepreneurs are more interested in making money than assisting their clients.

jhon

quit spamming!

use your words. You have yet to offer a solution.

please quit just cutting and pasting.

Oh yeah, right on!

Kill, kill, kill! Chopping up babies is the answer to society's problem with welfare and selfishness.

What is the answer to the problem of old people using up more money than they make? What is the answer to the problem of handicapped people draining society's money? Kill, kill, kill!

Kill those who are inconvenient, and the sooner, the better. On this one we can't really say, "It's for the children," so "It's for society, yay!"

sorry wrong thread.

this one is focused on a solution. got one??

I promoted reducing abortions and was basically called an insensitive baby killer and now I am trying to discuss solutions for if abortion was banned and now I want to "kill babies"??

I get this is an emotional issue but let's have an open honest discussion without name calling.

If you don't have any original thoughts to share, move along.

Lets go Chinese

1 child per family .. you Eugenics bastard

So...

Not banning abortions means enforcing them? Get some logic and leave the bias behind.

huh? lol you seriously are bashing me again?

This is a real issue and a debate that should be had.

Why Not Late Late term abortion then

Who will take care of the children once they are born to unfit people .. abort them as well .. Lets go full Eugenics like you want

why not offer a real solution

instead of just making rude "drive-by" comments

Adoption

Those who can't afford to raise the baby or just don't want a baby at this time in their life, give them up for adoption, from mothers that I know of.

what if there aren't enough families out there to adopt them?

Then the state will have to raise them, which is not only bad for the state but you are also failing the kids by not allowing them to have a family.

Missed insights.

If abortion was illegal and couples were expected to give birth to and support their children, there may not be so many unwanted pregnancies. It's about responsibility. The government wouldn't be forcing people to have babies any more than it is forcing them to conceive and then abort them now.

What is the definition of an unfit mother? Wow, that would be an arrogant decision by anyone.

I would contend that few mothers are immediately bonded to their child as soon as they see a positive pregnancy test. For some, maybe most, it will take all of nine months and even the process of birth itself to create that bond that is further strengthened by the care of the infant. To assume that an unwanted pregnancy would result in an unwanted child is to overlook the human process of love.

Currently, there are thousands of couples who would love to adopt a child or more. As our fertility and health rates drop, there will be more.

So, I do not think that "unwanted babies" will be a consequence of anti-abortion laws. However, knowing that certain lawmakers are adept at turning anything they consider a lemon into lemonade for themselves, I am concerned that there may indeed be real unintended consequences that could severely affect the lives and liberty of women and their families. This would be government intrusion into pregnancy. In the name of fighting abortion, would women be subject to mandated tests? Would their pregnancies be tracked? Would expectant mothers that made choices that were unacceptable to government standards be treated like criminals? For example, if the mother refused care or ate junk food, would she be prosecuted for endangering her child? Examples of this have already occurred and we are currently living in the Roe v. Wade world.

Outlawing abortion will be tricky business and Ron Paul was spot on when he said that it should be a state issue. That way there would at least 50 experiments on how best to deal with all the issues that may arise. And 49 other options if you happened to live in a state that got it wrong.

Don't you think there would be more crime and poverty?

And think about all the crack babies that will be born and will require medical attention just to live!

And you would then force that child to live in a crack house??

Believe me,

there ARE unfit mothers out there that should not ever have kids.

These aren't simple issues.

What would you do to solve theses problems if abortions were banned?

Good grief.

I took your question seriously and answered it respectfully, and you reply in this fashion.

I can see now that your post was simply a bait to argue- not look for any answers.

I am astounded that you demand that I believe you to be the judge of which mothers are "unfit."

Oh boy. I have an idea. Why not imprison those women who would be unfit mothers so that they don't burden the world with unwanted babies? Let's sterilize anyone caught with crack, because everyone knows that is the cause of pregnancy. And, in keeping with current policies, let's demand that children live in "crack houses."

And just so that no charitable organizations or do gooders interfere with our warped sense of justice, let's ban religion and jail philanthropists or covetous couples who are so desperate that they are willing to throw good money out the window supporting inferior babies.

There. That should fix everything.

I'm sorry you misunderstand.

I agree with a lot of what you say, I should have said that in my reply.

"I am astounded that you demand that I believe you to be the judge of which mothers are "unfit."

-I never said that btw

do you not believe there are unfit mothers out there?

do you not think there are crack houses and prostitution houses where mothers keep there kids?

These places are real and do exist. you are lucky you have not had to experience a family member in one of these places.

this is a complicated emotional issue. i'm sorry if i pissed you off

Sorry to fly off the handle.

No, I do not believe there are many unfit mothers. And I am extremely wary of anyone thinking that they have some measuring stick to judge such a thing.

You seem to be specifically looking for an answer to what a mother should do if she is poor, uneducated, drug addicted, and on government welfare. How about instead of worrying about how we are going to to make sure the child doesn't follow in mom's footsteps, we start helping women in this situation through private associations. Don't focus on the baby. A baby is a person just like it's mom. Both need help and the best way to help the baby is to help the mom.

Are you looking for a way for the government to help? They can prosecute those who enslave and kill others through poisonous drugs and prostitution of poor girls (which may mostly be economically based rape.)

But doing the positive thing is up to us. Freely and individually. If it effects a family member then see to it that the mother has your support to better her circumstances. If not by supplying food or shelter, then at least by good will and wise, loving advice. Never labeling her as an unfit mother or her children as unwanted. Every woman has the ability to be a superb mother to her child. Every child is worthy of life and love.

abortion

Approximate number of African American deaths since 1973: Aids: 203, 695, Violent Cries 306,313, Accidents 370,723, Cancer 1,638,350, Heart Disease 2,266,789, Abortion 13 million. All figures are based on cumulative status provided by the Cdc. In 1935, the Nuremberg Laws codified the exclusion of Jews from German society. The next year, the Reichsgericht (Germany’s highest court) essentially legalized the Holocaust. Cartoons routinely depicted Jews as pigs, dogs, rats, and other vermin. In 1857, the U.S. Supreme Court declared Blacks “…a subordinate and inferior class of beings…” in [Dred] Scott v. Sandford. Black slaves were often assigned diminutive names, such as “Mingo,” that were normally reserved for pets. In 1973, the U.S. Supreme Court found that “the word ‘person,’ as used in the [Constitution], does not include the unborn.” Today, unwanted children are spoken of in dehumanizing terms: “embryo,” “fetus,” “products of conception,” etc. The Nazis asserted that the racial make-up of the German nation was an internal matter for the German people to decide. They also emphasized Hitler’s choice, his “Will to Power,” as a Nazi propaganda film put it. In the Senatorial debates of 1858, Stephen Douglas said that he was personally opposed to slavery but that each state should have the right to choose whether to be a slave state or a free state. Pro-abortion advocates argue that if pro-lifers don’t like abortions, they shouldn’t have them. Abortion is not mandated; it is a matter of personal “choice.”
Eastern Europeans owned land that the Nazis wanted for lebensraum (“living space”) for the German people. Jews owned material wealth that Nazis wanted for themselves. Blacks owned the work product that slave owners desired for themselves. The loss of this uncompensated work product would deprive slave owners of material wealth they desired to maintain. Killing babies is often justified based on the desire to acquire material wealth and /or maintain lifestyle. Babies get in the way of career development, women’s rights, sexual freedom, etc.
Parasites” and “bacilli” were words used by Nazis to describe Jews and others targeted for extermination. Benjamin Rush, a leading American scientist who personally opposed slavery, speculated that all blacks were really leprous, diseased, whites in need of a cure. In his medical textbook Abortion Practice, Warren Hern analogizes the unwanted, unborn child to a disease, the treatment of choice for which is abortion. The Nazis justified killing “useless eaters” based on the fact that they were using up resources needed by the German people. Pro-slavery advocates justified the continuation of slavery because they said the slaves, if emancipated, could not take care of themselves and would be a drain on society’s resources. Pro-abortion advocates attempt to justify abortion by stating that there are inadequate resources to care for all unwanted babies if they are not killed by abortion.: http://www.blackgenocide.org/abortion.html

jhon

Ok so I can see you are a good "cut and paster"

But what is YOUR solution??

abortion

The purpose of abortion is to kill of the blacks. After they were freed from slavery by Abrham Lincon the wealthy elite tried to send them back to africa but could not succed at sending them back so they decided they were going to have them all killed of discretly. They decided to come up with a way to do it. That way that was decided was and still is to this day abortion, sterilization, birth control, and forced eugenics. The founder of planned parenthood in her own words in videos you can find on youtube of interviews she gave while she was still alive said that she wanted the black race exterminated and that the way to do that and the way she will do this is thorugh reproductive health services.

jhon

Can you post a youtube link

Can you post a youtube link where she said that?

Thanks!