10 votes

Does the Liberty Movement Need a "General" To Get Truly Organized?

I'm NOT advocating violence. I'm always for peaceful resistance unless of course it's in defense of life and limb. What I am saying is that I personally would feel much more confident in the strength of this movement and it's chances of success if it had an effective chain of command.

Continue...




Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.

The more downvotes you get in the beginning with this one...

... the more certain you can be that you have hit the nail on the head.

Is Big sis a great general? No. She does what she is told and unfortunately it is irritatingly effective. Did fast and fasscist have great generals? They just did what they were paid and told to do; and also nauseatingly effective. Do you have great leaders anywhere at the top of the country? Take an honest look and see. You have some effective ones but where are they taking you? (compare that also to where they say they are taking you -- there are mind-blowing chasms).

All you need for a good general is someone who can face the limelight and get things done! You can form a group that says "these are the 5 or 10 or 20 most important things to get done. Structures obviously will allow 10x the results. You need 100+ times results. Your rules can say, "do this if you want the job, or step aside and let someone who will do it do it".

The need for generals and organization is self-evident. The downvoters know that too. They are not part of the group you want to organize, however they present themselves. This is just too self-evident. They are part of those who fear that you will get organized and they are trying to divert others from agreeing to be organized. If I don't get down votes from them for this I will be disappointed, as you should be.

Sooner or later, out of sheer necessity the sparks you make now will ignite -- and that will happen because of what you doing now. You are doing the right thing.

What did you say????

"I've OFTEN said we need a GENERAL for the Revolution"

--- Um, no, it is not often said at all. Infact, this is the first that I've heard it.

How about this, no generals, no followers.

Even better -- Millions of informed adults who put the ideal of Human Individual Rights, ie the right to Life, Liberty, and Property above all else.

Yes, please BUY this wonderful libertarian BOOK! We all must know the History of Freedom! Buy it today!

"The System of Liberty: Themes in the History of Classical Liberalism" ...by author George Smith --
Buy it Here: http://www.amazon.com/dp/05211820

You win a cigar lol

I've OFTEN said we need a GENERAL for the Revolution

I confess... I only heard it a couple of times. It sounds like a good idea though!

Asymmetric Leaderless Guerrilla counter-measures

... with the simple formula : take their stuff ... win the infowar without ever firing a shot.

Know that when your cause is just : God is on your side !

Republic Broadcasting best talk radio in the truthosphere

This isn't about leaders...

this is about spreading a message. The entire concept of a central "leader" is antithetical to liberty.

We are the leaders. Every single one of us. We don't need a "leader" to tell us when or how to engage our families, friends, and neighbors, or who to meet with at all.

We, as individuals working together on equal footing, are perfectly capable of managing this ourselves without petitioning for some "great general" to do all the hard work for us.

Simple Facts and Plain Arguments
A common sense take on politics and current events.

http://simplefactsplainarguments.blogspot.com

if you had not had RP...

... in a position of leadership and plugging away over and over at the same basic message from a position of relative power there would be no movement. A message becomes a message when it is heard.

If you think you can grow or succeed without leaders you are whistling past the graveyard.

This is what I'm talking about.

If there was a central focal point - and a trusted leader as well... our forces could be concentrated on one goal. Look at how Ron Paul galvanized the liberty movement around ending the FED. Do you think we'd be this close to bringing the FED down without that focal point?

We've had three productive meetings in Oak Roots Club. I hope you join us for the next. All we're trying to do is get organized. We each have our pet causes that we feel are important. The goal of ORC is to unite the liberty movement around the most important ROOT causes that we can solve by uniting our forces and committing to success in our goals.

http://www.dailypaul.com/279146/oak-roots-club-meeting-900-a...

Timing is everything.

...and levels of knowledge are different. We are severely lacking in the timing department... as well as execution of our goals.

I believe that we're capable of being 10x as effective as we are currently if we get more organized (right to assemble).

Just that one statement there... do you agree with it?

Let's take one example - the one I keep harping on... let's take the most populous county in this country and say "We're going to put a constitutional sheriff in there this cycle." Someone that really follows the constitution RELIGIOUSLY.

1) Could we do it?
2) What would we gain from it?

To the part of you comment in

To the part of you comment in bold:

Yes! That's what I'm arguing. Getting organized will obviously help, but that doesn't mean we need a leader to organize us. We individuals have to do it ourselves.

Simple Facts and Plain Arguments
A common sense take on politics and current events.

http://simplefactsplainarguments.blogspot.com

Kind of a puerile argument.

Like a football team without a coach. Every player all for himself with no agreements to work on. Have you ever seen a group cohese without a leader?

Do you have a more useful view of a road from a driver's seat or by being a wheel?

For lack of willingness to "have a leader" you have "leaders" that are screwing you. Somehow you seem unable to reconcile this.

Sooner or later liberty lovers will get together behind a handful of principles and agree to disagree about the rest of the stuff and leaders will emerge that drive the whole thing. It will be out of necessity to survive.

Where will you be? Sitting back being individuated because you can't have or be a leader?

You share your view with all those who fear the liberty movement gaining a leader. The day that it does their fears will be justified and fulfilled.

Organizing would generally mean... IMO...

finding out what we agree on including what the solutions are, discussing plans to implement the solutions and committing to their success.

Am I missing something? (Come on down) http://americanherofund.com/node/10

I'll throw my hat in :

6year war veteran, believer in the constitution over outdated model of politics. Principle over practice, lover of the free world, proud parent, married 3 years, awake for 10 years (thanks, Ron!), constitutional militiaman, futures farmer, chemical researcher, medical practitioner, communal team asset and voice of Precinct 1 Franklin Co., Washington.

Remember, "TFT," on election day!!!

Freedom Lovers Unite : to bring in our last chance for what was a great country back again into the hands of the people.

Alright so we have our first candidate for general.

Alright tftxyz (unique name btw): What do you feel should be the first priority for the liberty movement? What do you feel is the best mission which if we complete it would forward us down the path to liberty the fastest?

I'd like to get this going like a snowball downhill... start building on previous victories... that is how you win an info-war - or any other war for that matter... (peacefully and non-violently speaking. Call me Janet. Let's do lunch :)

The person would have to be

The person would have to be one of the best of us.......in conviction, knowledge and in teaching........, someone who can eloquantly speak the message.......even though, no matter how you come accross, its speaking from the heart that counts, not image.....

We have one candidate above...

if we get one more we can start having some debates on the solutions (we're done discussing the problems and the issues). The floor is open for nominations or volunteers!

I was thinking maybe someone

I was thinking maybe someone whose well established, we all know ron paul......how many of us have thought, what if there is another "ron paul" under the radar, hell, im discovering more and more people every other week, im holding out on that one gem, that for some reason, no one has discovered in significant numbers......my nom (to keep an eye on) would go to josh tolley, i like his take on liberty more then some, considerably more then most.........up there with ron of what little ive seen so far

If you manage to get a grassroot end representative who incapulates what i said in my first post but not limited to, then i think that would be fantastic, but i think, and i hope im wrong, it would be a bastard of a thing to achieve.........to lead, you need great character and a steel belief that you wont comprimise, theres a reason for the phrase

"Absolute power corrupts absolutely"

But we all here know that some people can ressist that, dont we lads.......and maidens of liberty :)

I dont think leadership is a natural state for a liberty mind.........we are all leaders, and we are all peasants, to lead so many numbers, it is a temptation for corruption, not saying corruption is the inevatable outcome, only just that it is a possibility, and in my liberty mind that is enough, i dont think i personally would be built to lead, it ........?scares me.........to voluntarily lead, is the understanding of how much you must care to make a change to RISK absolute power

Anyway, best wishes for this cause, may not happen immediatly, but you never know, in future it may, and whose to say you were not a part of it

No doubt your not the first to bring this up, no doubt you will not be the last, but if something should ever come of it, i personally in my heart if not by post, would say a thankyou.......

You hear that thankyou on the wind.......thats me :)

Josh

would be an excellent candidate! I'm sure he posts on the Daily Paul maybe he would like to weigh in?

The Greatest Power of All...

If we REALLY want to show our Power, I have ALWAYS said, the BEST and the SAFEST way to exert Power to change the system is to Collectively just STAY HOME. Turn off the electricity to your house at the breaker box, only turning it on for cooking if you need to, buy no gasoline, no food, if possible call in "Well" at work and stay home from work, heck, talk to your boss about closing the business and joining the strike, don't go shopping. For as long as it takes JUST STOP BEING A CONSUMER. Use up your "3 day supply" or "one week supply" or borrow from you "one or two year supply". If MILLIONS or 10s of MILLIONS of people focused on an issue, CISPA for example, PUBLICIZED that we were going on "strike" to show our solidarity, called our congress critters and enough of the media and Monsanto and Cargill and Wal-Mart and Citi Group and Bank of America and Verizon and AT&T until it became known across the land when we were going to start and then just STOPPED participating in the economy, as much as Humanly Possible. Just stop, don't use cell phones, don't use phones at all, don't shop, don't turn on the TV, just stop all consumption... for one day, two days, three days, a week, or whatever it takes until they "blink". Nobody has to get pepper sprayed, nobody has to get arrested or beat up by some riot cops baton, or kicked or stomped on or killed. Invite the neighbors over, do a fondu on sterno fuel, make sandwiches, eat salads, read a book, say "hi" to your wife and kids, have some quality time with those who are supposed to matter to you. They can't invade everybody's home with SWAT teams and FORCE us to go out and buy stuff! If we just did TOTAL PASSIVE ECONOMIC RESISTANCE it would put the FEAR OF GOD into them. Do it EFFECTIVELY enough the FIRST TIME, enough warning to notify the WORLD ahead of time that it was going to happen and then it goes on for 3 days, a week, as long as millions or billions can manage it and we NEVER HAVE to do it again, just threaten. They'll Listen that. Believe me. Stop the Engine of the World. - John Galt
P.S. Pick a date in the future, enough time to get the word out, say July 4th or November 5th or whatever. Spread the Idea around through your email, facebook, twitter, all over the place and those who want to, GLOBALLY, can participate and attach the INACTION to whatever cause is important to them. No need for 10s of thousands in the square going up against armed goons. Just stay home. It's a Power they don't want us to know we have.

The things that will destroy us are: politics without principle;
pleasure without conscience; wealth without work; knowledge without character; business without morality; science without humanity; and
worship without sacrifice: Mahatma Mohandas K. Gan

Obviously due to my below comment I agree with this.

However we should not do it on a holiday when lots of people will already not be working. We should do it right in the middle of the week... perhaps on a thursday (some people might decide to take a long weekend to boot).

Sorry if I was unclear...

My intent is that we do it weekdays, weekends, weeks long or however long it takes so that "They" Understand who really Holds the Power. I can survive about 30 days on what I have in the house at the moment and another 45 to 60 days on stored fat and protein. 10s of Millions of people could even agree to leapfrog/tagteam week by week until "They" cry Uncle.

The things that will destroy us are: politics without principle;
pleasure without conscience; wealth without work; knowledge without character; business without morality; science without humanity; and
worship without sacrifice: Mahatma Mohandas K. Gan

I advocated for this back in December

I was trying to get people to go to DC and just camp out until everyone we accused of treason was arrested and held for trial.

The most effective action of all

would be inaction. If everyone just stopped MOVING for 24 hours the system would go into temporary cardiac arrest... Imagine a "day of meditation" where everyone just STAYS HOME (you don't necessarily have to meditate - just don't do any BUSINESS).

Is that kind of idea worth it's own post?

If we want to get their attention on the fact that we the people do have the power if we choose to wield it, that would be a good non-violent way to do it.

Why should we punish ourselves?

Why not punish them instead? Doing otherwise is simply crazy.

We have to stop thinking of 'them' as everyone who is not us. Them is a collective of multiple subsets of us. A CFO of a major corporation might completely agree with us while only compromising (to CYA) on one tiny thing. Collectively, however, that compromise he made, along with the same from millions of others, constitutes the entirety of the problems we fight. It's simply as insane to target "them" as it is for the US to "fight terrorism". It's a battle that can't be won and never ends.

A much better method would be to pick one evil-doer and fight that entity. For example, debate it out among ourselves to identify the most evil company out there. It doesn't matter who is selected but they should have common negatives for all people and be easily taken down. Make this a public process that draws people in DURING THE DEBATE. Get that consensus and organize a mass boycott using those who learned of it during the debate.

You can't run a society by boycotting "gas and oil" but you certainly can by boycotting BP. Same goes with Monsanto but they're harder to take down because they don't sell directly to the people. So wait on tackling them until the process gains its strength.

In the boycott, we have to be clear that the people will not interact with said evil company in any way. We will not invest in them. The boycott will follow the CEO to his next company. We will swap out our investments from any fund that includes their stock. We will not interact with any company that interacts with them and so on. Create a public-sourced graph of their interactions with other companies and watch as those fall one-by-one. When the main company falls, we've succeeded. So move on.

Find the next company in an even more public debate. Let them know that whomever is in the running had better be scared. Let the fear of anticipation make them change their ways before we even get done picking the new 'winner'.

If this process became an ongoing one which consistently grew in popularity, our "top ten candidates" would quickly become mainstream news. At that point, we have all the power in the system. ...without punishing ourselves by going days without food, gas or income and definitely without firing a single shot.

Right idea...

but you're kind of hacking at the branches:

A much better method would be to pick one evil-doer and fight that entity. For example, debate it out among ourselves to identify the most evil company out there.

The cause IMO is the ability to achieve LIMITED LIABILITY for your actions which being under the umbrella of "corporate agent" you are insured in that capacity - LEGALLY.

If I grab a small bat and hit you over the head with it I go to prison for prob 5 years. If someone who works for a private security contractor slick enough to call themselves "police whatnot" does it they are back on the job the next day after filing a bogus report. They have no fear of repercussions for their actions.

...and don't even get me started on US troop IMMUNITY against prosecution while in Iraq/Afghanistan - if those countries can afford a legal system then they should have already been able to afford a law enforcement system by now which means we wouldn't have to be there discussing the lunacy of giving anyone immunity to commit MURDER (killing an innocent ANYONE).

What liability?

There's no liability issues involved in a boycott. You talk about the government entities like they are the problem. They just do as they're told. The problem ultimately lies in the private areas.

So take down a few big bad ones, then take down GS, then take down BIS. Now tell me how your concerns above are changed. Still not fixed? Fine. Take down those that are funding the Rothschild Zionists.

I don't see why you're confusing this. It's a boycott that utilizes the most common base infringements on the people to unite them and give them their power back in this world.

I'm all for boycotts

that something the people can do without the help of anyone else. Perhaps we mis-communicated.

Excellent!

The Mastermind at work, the interplay of Ideas. We each think in our own little box and we all have different boxes. I LIKE your ideas. Focus, one at a time. One after the other, we take them down.

The things that will destroy us are: politics without principle;
pleasure without conscience; wealth without work; knowledge without character; business without morality; science without humanity; and
worship without sacrifice: Mahatma Mohandas K. Gan

You mean like Occupy does?

You mean like Occupy does? They are at least starting to organize seriously with lawyers and lawsuits and their rolling jubilee debt relief stuff.

Here's the thing: the US is so fragmented that even people at the DP won't look at what the so called left is doing. And "the progressives" don't want to rub elbows with "The TeaBaggers".

I think the only thing to do is promote discussion groups. Let people meet in REAL LIFE with real people in their community that are AMERICAN.

I think this guy answers this better than I could

Arrgh just did an exhaustive search for it and couldn't find it. Basically both occupy and the tea party should be able to agree on the constitution. The libertarians should be able to find common ground with both. The sovereigns should be happy that so many people are finally aware of their own power as people and not CITIZENS and I've already debated anarchy vs the constitution right here:
http://www.dailypaul.com/268723/want-liberty-introducing-a-n...

Then you even got Young Turks here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJQHvoLEeRQ

He even discusses right to assemble and not having to get permits for that stuff. We should not even be applying.

Must be a Liberty / Freedom purist.

I can see where many here would resist this notion and will distrust anyone who tries to gather up the proverbial robes around him/herself in a leadership role. But as a mental exercise at least:

[BEGIN BABBLE:]

Does this individual transition to some sorta candidate at some point? Define *General*.

Must be a Liberty / Freedom purist. (Or two people, who can play off one another? Dunno. A biz ops person and a highly visible firebrand?)

Obviously must be an example of Liberty-ism. Plus our best salesman / woman.

If in an outward-facing role:

Must be someone who can be inspiring to even the liberal types, and who can remind them that they should love Freedom in and of itself and who can perhaps convince them of the evils of pushy, fascist government (By empowering / appealing to their sense of individuality / self-determination / accomplishment). These used to be "my people", and I still understand them to large degree. There are many good elements on the liberal side. Creative thinkers, lovers of freedom. But they are stuck in the 2 party paradigm. They must be told--over and over for a while--that Status Quobama = Bush. This isn't hard; the proof is there! Direct their attention to their leaders who we can respect (ie: Cornell West, Chomsky (maybe?), etc.... and yes, none of these guys are *perfect*, as we know.). Appeal to the anti-war vibe which we share. A lot of "liberals" are disgusted with Obama now, too. More than we realize. Certainly not reported, of course! Some are quietly creeping over to our side and are not telling their friends! These people need a gentle welcome to our ideas; not a head dunk in the deep end of the pool. We are ALL beings of ego and pride, so let's take care not to put people off through aggression (even intellectual aggression). Grassroots = local sales, of course.

Cannot be a religious conservative, overly conservative agenda-driven sort. Sorry, but we will hafta hang up some of our specific demands--and certainly *any* demands that in essence take away freedom of choice for other people.

The gun issue is, as we know, one of fear. This is a hard nut to crack. A lot of my liberal friends are just afraid. I try to talk history with them, tyranny and the like, but it can hard not to seem condescending (I've been called arrogant here though, so perhaps that's my problem! LOL!) Dunno. Help!

This is politics, no matter the paradigm, and that art (Dark Art, LOL!) hinges on some degree of compromise / cooperation /etc. with those outside our sphere of concerns. It is the ultimate in salesmanship / saleswomanship, as we know. We know where our limits are here (the things / areas in which most of us can agree), so it's not as dangerous as it may seem.

Not anyone tainted by official Tea Party involvement (Yeah, we all know it was hijacked by mainstream Republicans and saboteurs.).

Someone affable and humble, like RP, of course! But who perhaps can get ignited the way the Doc used to in his younger years... and who some soul / preachy character sometimes. Someone not afraid to say "I don't know."

***I sorta got off topic and strayed into a front-runner-ish sorta territory. Is this part of it, too? I'd think this person would have to be effective at preaching to the choir to keep We the Choir focused? Given our variety of viewpoints?***

[Disclaimer: I'm still "new" here relative to most, so I suggest these things with my hat in my hand, fully realizing that I am likely among these least qualified to chirp on about this stuff!]

What would the Founders do?