2 votes

Beginning of the End for Bitcoin?

Looks like Bitcoin won't be quite as anonymous as it once was. This development could seriously hamper the services that have recently developed to cater to Bitcoin users.

http://www.freebanking.org/2013/03/19/us-treasury-updates-bi...




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You don't know what an Authoritarian is.

Merriam-Websters

"Authoritarian"

1: of, relating to, or favoring blind submission to authority
2: of, relating to, or favoring a concentration of power in a leader or an elite not constitutionally responsible to the people.

If you can win the debate and convince people that taxes are theft, go ahead. You'll fail, but you CAN try.

People reject Anarchism and Anarchists. They choose government and recognize the value they receive as compensation for their taxes. They don't see all taxes as slavery nor theft. They want what they can get for their money, they want law enforcement, a justice system, national defense, schools, roads, and all manner of devices that serve the peoples liberty. If you don't see value there, fine, but they do.

If an Authoritarian was in charge, and you tried to say taxes are theft and slavery, he would say: "Kill that idiot Anarchist."

I'm not saying kill the Anarchists, and I'm not luring you into self destruction by saying 'opt out'. I'm saying about the ONLY thing that can be said to save you from justice, and that's GET OUT. You want to live like a freeloader while screaming about authoritarians fine, but justice will find you. They aren't thieves. YOU ARE.

"What you advocate is the antithesis of freedom."

You don't know what threatens your liberty, and neither I or anybody else is this country is interested in letting you learn that lesson through destruction.

"I refuse your distortion of reality."

I'm not distorting reality. The whole world agrees. Anarchy SUCKS.

Anarchy predates government, and those who want Anarchy want it to predate whatever kind of government they ACTUALLY want. I say the people telling you to 'opt out' are trying to use people to get the government they want, not Anarchism, and the fact that they won't tell you what kind of government that is SHOULD set off alarm bells in your head.

(/fraud /fraud /fraud)

Tax on one's income is theft.

Tax on one's income is theft. Tax on goods is not, because you do not have to buy that good.

Please come join my forum if you're not a trendy and agree with my points of view.

Anarchist Giberish.

"Tax on one's income is theft. Tax on goods is not, because you do not have to buy that good."

Taxing barter is still taxing. Screw your taxes. "All taxes are theft." Taxes are just a third party trying to steal from me and I don't enter into social contracts with thieves.

Why should I collect your taxes thief?

/sarcasm on

Tax on goods is still theft

Tax on goods is still theft through coercion/extortion. If one needs food and the only way to get it is to pay protection money to the local government mafia that is theft! Any means of taking ones substance or money against their will is theft period.

-----
End The Fat
70 pounds lost and counting! Get in shape for the revolution!

Get Prepared!

"Tax on goods is still theft through coercion/extortion."

"Any means of taking ones substance or money against their will is theft period."

But they voluntarily choose to purchase? I thought you were a Voluntarist?

I'm talking about tariffs,

I'm talking about tariffs, like on imports. It's how this country was built. They didn't need to tax a single person's income. It's not stealing your money to put a tax on those goods because you don't have to buy it. You are voluntarily entering into the transaction.

Please come join my forum if you're not a trendy and agree with my points of view.

"I'm talking about tariffs, like on imports."

Anarchists don't want borders. They're enemies of the state. They want a world without borders filled with sovereign rulers and think injustice is something they can get rid by getting rid of government.

There won't be any NEED for taxes or justice and they condemn the very idea of justice because that would mean you're judging something as evil. (they're nihilists)

Their plan is to keep the peace with a few rent-a-goons. It's so laughable that they can't even really explain it other than to just keep screaming "taxation is theft".

Well, there's a shocker!

I love how you bring up your seemingly endless hatred of anything and everything you deem "Anarchist" whenever someone points out your ignorance on an unrelated issue. You're even worse than a lib with a newly issued race card.

A signature used to be here!

Is he not an Anarchist?

Did he not just say I'm nothing and that I've found my true value?

If only the whole world was filled with you enlightened and loving Anarchists instead of all these worthless nothings...

pretty sure he was referring to bitcoin

and based on your replies you may have...issues. Not everything is personal, when you automatically assume everything is personal that is a very bad sign. It makes people think maybe you are just spoiling for a fight, rather than seeking a discussion of issues. In my experiance people who are always spoiling for a fight usually get one fairly soon, and it usually doesn't take too long to pick a fight with the wrong person either.

Josh Brueggen
Engineer
Entrepreneur
Gardener
Jack of all Trades
Precinct Commiteeman Precinct 5 Rock Island Co Illinois

You think he was refering to Bit Coin? I don't think so...

I say you're a self aware liar. Go back and read what he said, and explain to me how it is you think he's referring to Bit Coin. He supports Bit Coin, and comments like that are how he defends it.

Furthermore, why would I want to have "a discussion" with a self aware liar like you? I can't imagine a bigger waste of time.

If you can explain yourself, perhaps, but that's not possible is it?

They can't stop bitcoins they

They can't stop bitcoins they have no means to track them. This is just their attempt to scare people into volunteering their information. If they shut down the open exchanges bitcoin will just go underground. Soon peer to peer internet will be available and then it will be over for them.

What ever you do don't register or get licensed etc. That is what they want to scare everyone tell them sure you can use bitcoin just as long as you let us steal them from you as we please just like dollars.

The exchanges will just go to off shore servers until peer to peer becomes the norm.

-----
End The Fat
70 pounds lost and counting! Get in shape for the revolution!

Get Prepared!

"They can't stop bitcoins

"They can't stop bitcoins they have no means to track them. This is just their attempt to scare people into volunteering their information."

sort of like income taxes. if nobody "volunteered" their information, they couldn't hold everyone accountable. but since everybody volunteers, the dissenters stand out.

Game On!

This effects me directly. I am a miner and I encourage all to do the same if you consider getting into Bitcoin. Yes, the prices went parabolic and it will be followed by a severe correction, but that is even more of a reason to get into mining.

If I choose to sell my mined coins on the exchange without licensing and following proper procedures then I'm breaking the law and could face jail time. Unfortunately, I can't afford the licensing to be free.

At least it is still legal to take my bitcoins and exchange them directly for silver :-) That's actually a pretty good deal.

www.coinabul.com

“I’m fully diversified. I’ve got some under the mattress, some under the floor boards, some in the backyard.”

Garan's picture

Shhhh.

:)

Then again, maybe someday they will legalize silver as tender in order to stop bitcoin exchanges for silver.

Maybe the government will tangle itself in it's own laws.

Maybe I'm dreaming?

Maybe I'll go do something productive, like generate bitcoins.

From what I understand, if

From what I understand, if you use an exchange as a miner, the license of the exchange will cover you. You won't need a license in such an event. And if you buy goods with BC in the BC economy, you also won't need a license. It's when you convert your BC into real currency without using an exchange that you need a license.

Exactly so lets grow the

Exactly so lets grow the bitcoin economy to the point where we do not need their currency!

-----
End The Fat
70 pounds lost and counting! Get in shape for the revolution!

Get Prepared!

The Federal government

is attacking Bitcoin? Sounds to me like Bitcoin just became legitimate.

I AM is all that is. Everything else is malleable.

Yes to the first question and

Yes to the first question and yes to the second statement.

IMO, this is indeed an attack. We KNOW that the Federal government has an interest in maintaining their monopoly. This is also obvious by how they attacked gold and silver currencies as well as how they sabotaged e-gold.

Since they can't take out BC like they did e-gold (because it's not centralized), the only thing they CAN do is make the barrier of entry into the market higher. Because they certainly cannot close all the exchanges without a good reason. Doing so would be too transparent. Not to mention that you would need to have a legal framework to prevent other exchanges from popping up in such an event.

Right at this moment, they cannot take harsh action against BC, because doing so would be too obvious and could create backlash. They can only move against it when it has gone mainstream. This will give them the opportunity to create more credible excuses.

I first thought that this wasn't an attack by the government as well, but reading the article on zerohedge changed my mind. Tyler is right, the timing of this regulation is simply too suspect. Not to mention that the existing regulation exists to MAINTAIN the monopoly. And that's what they did. Used existing regulation (slightly modified) and make it apply to BC.

So do not be misled that BC is now regulated. With regulation comes significant extra transaction costs.

I don't know why any liberty

I don't know why any liberty supporter would root against BitCoin. You don't have to like it. But to have an agenda against it like EGhost..... Unless they're.......... hmmmm

Anyhow, this is old news. BTC up 20% since the reports.

You presume alot

What makes you think I have an agenda against bitcoin? I'm trying to learn about and I came across an article that discusses the governments beginning to regulate it.

Everyone who seems to fall in love with bitcoin speaks to its anonymity and freedom from the government. Now that isn't completely true. I just people would like to know.

I've been interested in bitcoin for more than a year and I wish I had bought coins back then. But I'm sorry to tell all of you who promote it to no end that a bubble exists in bitcoin, once that pops, I'll buy some.

I'm with you on this

too many here jump to conclusions...just look at that freedomsreinging guy, everyone that disagrees with him is an 'anarchist'

You ask the same questions

You ask the same questions that can be found readily available online for answers. This is what we call the Hannity approach.

But to be fair, I was anti-bitcoin until a month ago. Except, I used the wealth of knowledge found online to answer my questions, when I had them. Instead of perpetuating myths and propaganda on sites like the DP.

What the???

Look, the bitcoin proponents on the DP are certainly passionate. But you are also extremely antagonistic and insulting. (Yes, I understand that some detractors are also insulting.)

All I want are answers to questions about the privacy, security, and future of bitcoin. I know how to use Google but I want YOUR perspectives.

Unfortunately some of the supporters refuse to engage with meaningful discourse and would rather insult people. The following message has been received loud and clear:

"If you're not using bitcoin your an idiot, unpatriotic, you don't know how the internet works, you're not worth explaining it too."

Yes, this is the message many of you have sent.

I have serious concerns about the recent increase in price of bitcoin. I see trouble on the horizon and no bitcoin proponent has yet convinced me that this price rise is normal and that it will simple level off at some point without crashing.

I have concerns about the privacy of bitcoins. Every transaction is public knowledge and someone posted a site that actually studied the ability to connect accounts and track them and identify users based on data from websites where transactions were made. http://anonymity-in-bitcoin.blogspot.com/

Others, myself as well have concerns about internet and/or power outages and its effect on the ability to use bitcoin should it become ubiquitous.

I have concerns about the US government now requiring bitcoin exchanges to register AND collect the information of their users.

I have concerns about the relatively small value of the bitcoin market as a whole and the ability for total market distortion by the government.

These are real concerns whether or not the bitcoin proponents want to address them or admit them.

The fact is I can go spend cash right now anywhere and no one has to know who I am and no paper trail will lead back to me or any account number that could potentially be associated with me. In this regard the dollar is more useful than bitcoin.

I can spend dollars without the need for electricity or the internet. This also makes dollars more useful than bitcoins.

In no way am I try to say that the dollar is the ultimate currency, it's not, but neither is bitcoin. Your enthusiasm for it is great but your over zealousness is hurting your ability to grow the market and its usefulness.

All I want to see is honest answers to the concerns of those who are genuinely interested in bitcoin, such as myself. You have no idea how many people you turn off by making accusations about their fidelity to liberty or their motives toward bitcoin. If you'd calm down you'd see that most people are not attacking bitcoin and only trying to learn more about it.

Here is what you ignored.

You ignored answers to all of your questions, as well as repeat answers found in recent topics of the same nature.
http://www.dailypaul.com/279171#comment-3010825
http://www.dailypaul.com/278684/bitcoin-bubble&sss=1

All of which was answered

All of which was answered before. All of it, directly to you, as you asked. Plausible deniability doesn't work, when someone holds your hand and points you to the information. What is insulting, is wasting other people's time over and over again, and ignoring everything given to you in return(which I may add that you are not obligated to answers from anyone, that is your own privilege). You're a clear troll, 100%(and look at my history of calling people trolls online, something I have done in 25 years of internet history enough times, that can be counted on one hand).

What is your problem?

You don't like that I have misgivings about bitcoin so now you call me a troll?

YOU are the reason some people on here don't like bitcoin. You are a plain jerk about it.

If you would be honest with yourself, I could be a great ally to you. All I want is to hash out the negatives and positives of bitcoin. I've never been against bitcoin, and I never will be, but I am against jerks who think they know everything there is to know and gloss of the negatives because they don't want to believe they exist. Everything has negatives, including bitcoin. So stop pretending that bitcoin is going to save the world and start being realistic to people who have no idea how bitcoin works by admitting that there are negatives.

OK, if the questions had been answered then you should have no problem answering them again:

Scenario 1: The power and or internet go out. How do you trade bitcoins? How do you verify the transactions? What is to stop anyone from falsifying bitcoin addresses while the internet is out? You can exchange addresses but that doesn't do anything for anyone until the power is back on and by then thieves will be gone.
I don't really think this is a big issue but some people do, and it is legitimate.

Scenario 2: Bitcoin spiked and crashed around June of 2011. It is currently spiking in price today, by what rule do you believe it is not going to crash soon?
http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/chart.png?width=940&m=mtgoxU...

Scenario 3: The US government sees bitcoin as a threat to their currency monopoly. They enter the marketplace methodically buying up and bidding up the price of bitcoin until one day they drop the bomb and sell it all off, destroying the price of bitcoin bring it back down to pennies. Why isn't this likely to happen, given the threat it poses to a dollar denominated world?

Scenario 4: I don't want my transactions followed by the government for some reason. I create numerous wallets and use them to purchase goods where ever I like. With all transaction being public, what is to stop the government, or anyone else for that matter, from following the chain of transaction from one wallet to the next to the next until they come across a wallet that I've used to buy a pizza that I had delivered to my house and connect that to another wallet I have supporting some revolutionaries? Or connecting me to a purchase made at a website that collected my IP address? Or from following the transactions to an exchange where I am REQUIRED to give personal information because of new regulations?

Scenario 4: The block chain is enormous and grows with every transaction that is made. I've been downloading the blockchain for 3 days now. As the blockchain grows larger and larger it presents a barrier to entry that keeps many people out of the market. Yes there are online wallets but these are a security risk because you not in control of the wallet yourself. How does bitcoin overcome the issue of the ever expanding blockchain?

If bitcoin is the end all be all then explain how it survives those scenarios. I'm not trolling, I'm just searching for answers and I'm a bit tired up bitcoin being trumped up because people are going to believe that bitcoin has no issues and will lose a lot of money when the bitcoin bubble collapses.

You should be ashamed of yourself for calling me a troll instead of engaging in rational thought. I have nothing against bitcoin, I intend to use it some day perhaps, but you have got to chill out. You are not doing the bitcoin community any favors behaving as you are.

You prfectly demonstrate why I have a problem with you

Everything you ask, has been answered YEARS ago. So you admit your own laziness.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Myths

Just because you are a newbie with this, doesn't mean others have failed to explain everything you have asked. You have failed to use the internet. And in that case, if you aren't good with the internet, they I agree, BitCoin is not for you. Also, I don't have to be nice to trolls. Your track record of ignoring references can only be corrected by your own willingness to read and learn. Not by debating your way out of the claims.

Actually

None of your links address the concerns brought up. This just shows me and everyone else that you are a bitcoin pusher and nothing more.

I like bitcoin, I think it could be a great medium of exchange, but unlike you I'm honest about its faults.

You haven't addressed the internet outage issue, you haven't address the market being cornered, you haven't address the every growing size of the blockchain, and you certainly have not addressed the RAPID rise in bitcoin price in recent weeks, that to any observer of markets would tell you looks like the making of a huge bubble, and neither do the links you provided.

Address them or not, it's plain for everyone to see that you are an overzealous pusher. You are the one claiming that they will liberate us, yet you've left me the the burden of proof after I've already pointed out scenarios where gold/silver and even FRNs beat out bitcoin.

If it's so damn simple minded an internet search would reveal how bitcoins survive those scenarios I proposed then please enlighten us with the simplicity. Of course you are free to refuse and leave us all in the dark, but if that's what you wanted, you never should have said anything about bitcoins to begin with. So go ahead, enlighten us.

Enlighten you, you mean.

Enlighten you, you mean. Everyone else knows how to use the internet.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=search2 That wasn't so hard, was it? Also, the BTC talk forum doesn't allow you to share search strings, so guess what, you have to search for it yourself.

Maybe you should address why I'm obligated to explain any of this to you?
BTW. Like I said, I used to be anti-bitcoin. But I did something special. I actually educated myself, and I did it without debating someone to holding my hand, and walking me through the interwebs(although I would argue that other bitcoin people have done a great deal in compiling tools and information for newbies.)

So which one is it, Mr. Troll? Are you going to find this readily available information, or do you need someone to wipe your butt and do it for you?