2 votes

Bitcoin up, Precious Metals down

So I, like so many people, have put their savings away in Gold and Silver.
Now, it seems like the cartel wants to slap us in the face again.
Figures I only bought one Bitcoin.
Bitcoin is up to $105 and climbing while Silver has been smashed down to $27.50.

Will you buy Bitcoins or Silver?



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value comes from labor?

What if a sculptor expended 100 hours to produce a crappy sculpture that no one wanted to buy, and another sculptor expended only 1 hour to produce a sculpture that auctioned for $10 million.

Did the value arise from the labor expended? No, it arose from the subjective value inside people's minds.

Learn about the Marxist labor theory of value versus the subjective theory of value.

http://wiki.mises.org/wiki/Labor_theory_of_value

SteveMT's picture

Art is not currency. The value of art and music is subjective.

van Gogh and Mozart died paupers. Their genius was recognized posthumously, regardless of the time involved with their creations. The taste in art may change again, and the subjective value of those works may also. Art is not currency. These works will not stand the test of time. The last Supper in nearly gone because it wasn't painted fresco. You are comparing apples and oranges, IMO.

Historically, the value of gold has been nearly constant, not subjective. In Roman times, an ounce of gold would buy and a good suit of clothes, a good pair of shoes, and a good meal. The same is true today. The labor involved makes a product that will last essentially forever and that has inherit value, independent of time, countries, governments, and people's tastes. I'll learn about Marx's labor 'theory,' but you should also learn about this history of gold and value-based currencies. Thanks for that link.

Another example

For someone who doesn't have hearing loss, how much do they value a hearing aid? They wouldn't pay $1 for it, but creating it required the labor of many people. The value of the hearing aid is dependent on the individual, not on how many hours it took to create it.

SteveMT's picture

All of the gold ever mined in history still exists.

It's all just doing fine. However, 95% of all hearing aids ever produced are either obsolete or are no longer working. Those are now worthless. Only the remaining 5% that are working are worth something to someone with a hearing loss. Hearing aids are not accepted as money. They are not a currency. Those darn apples and oranges are still around.

Money

Money is a good just like a hearing aid is. It is subject to the same economic principles of supply and demand.

People used to use salt as money because at that time and in those conditions, it was a good idea.

I personally value gold and

I personally value gold and silver and view them as money. I don't trust Bitcoin yet. One of the reasons I value gold and silver is because most people do. They have stood the test of time as a very functional medium of exchange.

+1 for stating a fundamental

+1 for stating a fundamental principle of sound money to counter act the negative votes. Its this the Daily Paul or the Daily Ponzi?

Labor Theory of Value

Marx actually glommed onto that misguided theory

It had been around for a while already, even Adam Smith fell for it.

It is thought of today as Marxist, which isn't bad because that way it gets the bad press it deserves.

Bitcoin's intrinsic value

Comes from versatility and perceived anonymity. As long as it works, and people have a reason to use it, the intrinsic value is that of which it is used for.
I am not a big fan of Bitcoin, but right now it is looking more and more legit, as it has survived this long.

Ron brought the Liberty movement together, Rand is expanding the crap out of it! :)

Wouldn't that be

instrumental value, not intrinsic value?

I'm reaching up and reaching out.
I'm reaching for the random or what ever will bewilder me.
And following our will and wind we may just go where no one's been.
We'll ride the spiral to the end and may just go where no one's been.
Spiral out.

Gold has intrinsic value

Its value comes FROM THE LABOR THAT IT TOOK TO GET IT! It is also a preferred preference in some electric components. Silver has value for the same reasons, but it much more valuable in that aspect.


http://youtu.be/JdbYztGEgbU

Ron brought the Liberty movement together, Rand is expanding the crap out of it! :)

Careful!

Never say that something has value because it took labor to produce it. This is the Marxist labor theory of value and has been debunked many years ago.

If 100 workers mine caves for rat poop and they try to sell it, but no one buys it -- may the workers claim that the poop has value because it took 1,000 man hours to produce it?

No - because value is subjective.

I did not vote you

down but wanted to inform you that rat poop has value, it can be useful as fertilizer.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Can_rat_manure_be_used_as_a_plant_...

"We can see with our eyes, hear with our ears and feel with our touch, but we understand with our hearts."

I think you can think of an

I think you can think of an example where many hours and sweat is expended to produce something, and then no consumer would pay 1 cent for it.

The product has no value because no one wants it. The labor expended does not determine or influence the value.

Honestly

I have not studied Marxist writings, but it is interesting that you brought this up. I will keep an open mind, but just because someone is wrong in the long run, does not mean everything they said was wrong.
There are industrial uses fro Gold that cannot be matched, unless by Silver. There is more than 3 Billion ounces of Gold above ground, and it has been accumulating like crazy, unlike Silver.
If you ask me, Gold should be worth a lot less than Silver, which above ground available Silver to the market is less than 1 Billion.

Ron brought the Liberty movement together, Rand is expanding the crap out of it! :)

I appreciate you keeping an

I appreciate you keeping an open mind. And just to be clear, I value and trust gold and silver much more than I value Bitcoin.

I just wanted to point out to you that there is no such thing as intrinsic value, and that value does not come from labor.

Here is the problem with

e currency in my opinion. It reminds me of many fads like beanie babies, the pet rock, tulip mania etc. There is some real hard and fast selling going on and that to me is a sign to step back and watch the players.

It is a confidence game and right now it looks like some are going to make some easy money.

Labor is sweat equity and I don't want to be paid in something that someone tells me has value, I want to be able to hold it in my hand or something used for trade or barter.

I don't want to have to pay an electric bill to use my currency. I would rather invest in the electric company than e currency.

There is a collision of values and I don't think it has to do with currency it has to do with the way people think and interact.

If I was a bankster, I would be lovely this e currency.

"We can see with our eyes, hear with our ears and feel with our touch, but we understand with our hearts."

Everything you hold in your

Everything you hold in your hand only has value to you because other people also find it valuable. Otherwise, nothing would have value as value is subjective. I can't believe a Ron Paul website is throwing around the labor theory of value. Value is subjective. You may value metals over bitcoin, and that's fine. But it doesn't mean it has intrinsic value. If intrinsic value exists, then value is objective.

Right on. Labor theory of value is misguided...

However, the price of new commodity goods will often be similar to the cost of production.

This isn't because the labor gave it value, but because the commodity's recognized value meant people were interested in providing the labor.

There is a strongly correlated relationship between labor and value, but the cause moves in the opposite direction. If the cost of production exceeded the value, people would ultimately stop producing the product.

In the case of Bitcoin, the price is wildly above the cost of production, and there is no real scarcity; an unstable place to be.

Author of Shades of Thomas Paine, a common sense blog with a Libertarian slant.

http://shadesofthomaspaine.blogexec.com

Also author of Stick it to the Man!

http://www.amazon.com/Stick-Man-Richard-Moyer/dp/1484036417

There is real scarcity. It's

There is real scarcity. It's a finite currency.

Wasn't bitcon just

at $70 a week ago? It broke $100 mighty fast.

“When a well-packaged web of lies has been sold gradually to the masses over generations, the truth will seem utterly preposterous and its speaker a raving lunatic.” – Dresden James

artificial valuation at the moment

Its difficult to determine what the real valuation is. If you watch the boards you will see massive slamming. But since the whole world hates banks now, it could still skyrocket. Who knows?

Silver.

Silver.

Southern Agrarian

jrd3820's picture

I'll stick with silver

Bitcoin might be up now and it could drop tomorrow. Same with silver. You just have to decide which is best for you as an individual.

“I like nonsense, it wakes up the brain cells. Fantasy is a necessary ingredient in living.”
― Dr. Seuss

I am investing in Tulips

.

"We can see with our eyes, hear with our ears and feel with our touch, but we understand with our hearts."

jrd3820's picture

Tulips?

But they lack intrinsic value. I would go with daisies if I was you. :)

“I like nonsense, it wakes up the brain cells. Fantasy is a necessary ingredient in living.”
― Dr. Seuss

Yes, they do

you can eat tulips not so with a bitcoins. When they come for our gold, silver, guns, dried foods, bitcoins. I will still have my flowers.

http://www.mariasfarmcountrykitchen.com/top-5-tastiest-tulips/

You can eat the daisies also.

http://www.parentdish.com/2004/08/05/yes-you-can-eat-the-dai...

"We can see with our eyes, hear with our ears and feel with our touch, but we understand with our hearts."

jrd3820's picture

Favorite Quote on the DP to date

"When they come for our gold, silver, guns, dried foods, bitcoins. I will still have my flowers."

I love it, and thanks for the link. I don't know if I would ever try eating tulips, but it was informative.

Instead of saying "Keep Stacking," to you I will say; Keep planting and growing.

“I like nonsense, it wakes up the brain cells. Fantasy is a necessary ingredient in living.”
― Dr. Seuss

That's a Big 4 - 20

Good Bud(jr)-D

"I, __________, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath_of_enlistment

There is no duration defined in the Oath