-119 votes

Truthers continue to see what they want to see.

Let me give you an example, and then I will go off on my rant.

Regarding the passport: You guys only see what you want to see. Why don't you list every item that survived? Drivers licenses survived, entire arms and other limbs, clothes, etc. Tons of things survived, but you frame the argument like only the passport survived. They already had flight manifests. They knew who was on those flights. There was no reason at all to plant a passport. The fact of the matter is that tons of things survived, not just a passport, and planting a passport would have been useless. It only seems like it matters to you guys because you want it to matter. If it was a conspiracy, don't you think the real cover up would have been about how they faked the flight manifest?

You people just continue to see what you want to see, regardless of how ridiculous it is. You take every bit of flimsy evidence and force it to support your conspiracy. Check that, I shouldn't even call it "evidence' because it isn't. It is a lack of evidence that you have. You invent questions about the incident and when you can't wrap your brain around reason and logic, you take every stupid thing any witness ever said and cling to it as if it were straight from God's mouth to your ears. You twist logic to fit your own narrative so you can feed your feable need to feel important on a national scale, like somehow the nation is reading your posts.

I remember when this sight was about liberty and free market capitalism. I remember when people here discussed topics related to the ideas Ron Paul was bringing up every day. You all have driven those fine people away with your own ignorant lack of critical thinking. I enjoyed those people. We shared information and learned together. I don't enjoy you people. You spread fallacy through verbosity. You post every tiny scrap of psuedo-evidence no matter how easily refutable, rendering the rest of us simply too tired to continue to address your never ending pile of fiction.

And worst of all, you continue to move the goal post, to the point that no amount of debunking will ever satisfy you because you will simply wait for the next bit of psuedo-evidence to come out, and if that evidence isn't readily available, you resort back to the old time honored defense of "All I know is that I don't believe the official story". And that only creates another fallacy you all love, the false dillema, where you try to shoot holes in the official story thinking that it somehow proves your story is true, only you don't even have a coherent story to back up. If I point out all the inconsistency in the Bible, does that somehow prove that Thor is real? You need evidence in support of your story, not lack of evidence in support of their's. You people don't have evidence. You don't have a story. What you do have unfortunately, and in abundance, is a never ending supply of fallacies.

As a middle school teacher, part of my curriculum is teaching fallacies, so when I claim you are using them in abundance, I'm not speaking generally. You are using them in abundance and it is killing your argument. The sad part, is that even if you all were right, your constant use of fallacy and lack of logical skills has driven away countless people who might have actually cared.

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Mr. Nystrom, you have

Mr. Nystrom, you have probably lived long enough to know that absolutely any point of view can be rationalized to some degree. That does not mean that all viewpoints have equal merit.

We have different standards of merit. Experimental data, Peer reviewed scientific studies, forensic evidence, archaeological evidence , computer simulations etc.

Hearsay is the lowest form of evidence and that is precisely what most conspiracy theories as well as religions are based on. Thus, I consider them fair game for questioning. Your beliefs should be founded on evidence otherwise you fall into an abyss of ignorance and intellectual dishonesty.

Michael Nystrom's picture

I agree completely!

Don't get me wrong.

Hearsay is the lowest form of evidence and that is precisely what most conspiracy theories as well as religions are based on.

I agree completely. And for whatever reason, that is what makes them so interesting to people. It is at the root of, "That's what she said."

Thus, I consider them fair game for questioning. Your beliefs should be founded on evidence otherwise you fall into an abyss of ignorance and intellectual dishonesty.

Conspiracy theories are fair game. That, in fact, is the only game. That is what makes them entertaining. Seeing how people achieved their thought process. Not all conspiracy theorists are created equal!

Religion also, to a certain extent, but questioning it is not something I engage in. Religion is near and dear to people's hearts; they believe what they believe - end of story. To try to "wake them up" is to try to free a mind from the matrix when it is not ready.

At some point, everyone is willing to listen to the ultimate truth.

But waiting is.

- - - - - - - -

So I agree with you when you say:

Your beliefs should be founded on evidence otherwise you fall into an abyss of ignorance and intellectual dishonesty.

But what I'm saying is that "evidence" can look either rock solid or gooey soft, depending on where you're sitting. And where anyone is sitting at any given time is not a matter of choice. Not exactly.

In other words, in an evolutionary process, you have to go through each stage. Are you "responsible" for the stage you're at? Not really - it is just a reflection of being a part of the system.

To be mean is never excusable, but there is some merit in knowing that one is; the most irreparable of vices is to do evil out of stupidity. - C.B.

I understand where you are

I understand where you are coming from but I gave up this form of fatalism a long time ago. A little bit of intellectual dishonesty that I am guilty of as well.

Free will may be an illusion, but the lack of it is so alien to human experience that I cannot bring myself to accept it.

Michael Nystrom's picture

So then don't accept it

Don't accept it, and don't not accept it. Try doing that. That is also alien to human experience.

Seems we've always got to be one or the other: Either black or white, a believer or a non-believer, a free willist or a fatalist. It is the dualistic nature of the condition known as humanity, that's all.

Step outside of that paradigm. Free will or not? It is not one or the other, but both, and neither.

Try wrapping your noodle around that one.

To be mean is never excusable, but there is some merit in knowing that one is; the most irreparable of vices is to do evil out of stupidity. - C.B.

I like it

Michael, I enjoy when you have a back and forth exchange with people, and this is an interesting one.
My two cents:
Evidence is great, but I am wary of what Bastiat cautioned us:
Do not hand over your own authority to an "expert". Do not be afraid of your own opinion. Trust in your own intellect even in the face of a case well made by others. It is called common sense.
In other words: dust off your Bulls--t Meter and keep it in good working order!
: )

"Any government that is big enough to give everything you need is also strong enough to take it all away."

The world is too specialized

The world is too specialized to know everything for yourself.

Do you check each individual aeroplane part when you take a flight? No, you trust to the experts.

Your evidence of flight safety is one based on statistics and trust in experts to do their job.

I couldn't comment on the safety of a nuclear power plant because I am not a nuclear physicist. I can only go by what experts on both sides say and weighing the evidence.

I generally ignore the

I generally ignore the question. Goes too far beyond what we know to be resolved at the moment.

What you suggest sounds like a fun mental exercise but I have NO idea how to go about it.

Michael Nystrom's picture

Good. Then be like a child

And invent a way.

We were created in the likeness of God, which is (at the very least) to say that we are creative.

Observe. Try. Think. Try again. Observe some more. Think. Try again. Think. Observe. Try....

It is a koan. What does it mean to be and not be?

"What is the sound of one hand clapping?"
"If a tree falls in the forest..."

Those are cliched.

But it is still possible to trick your mind out of its trance.

The mind is used to being logical. The point of these koans is to tie it into an unusual knot. And through the little opening that that wrinkled knot creates, True Reality can slip in.

That's called Nirvana.

To be mean is never excusable, but there is some merit in knowing that one is; the most irreparable of vices is to do evil out of stupidity. - C.B.

Being There

http://www.dailypaul.com/comment/1487180

“What does it mean to live in truth? Putting it negatively is easy enough: it means not lying, not hiding, and not dissimulating.”
― Milan Kundera, The Unbearable Lightness of Being

r'Evolve

http://www.dailypaul.com/comment/2942423

http://m.youtube.com/watch?hl=en&gl=US&client=mv-google&v=Bo...

Why not just leave those

Why not just leave those posts alone then? Let those who want to discuss 9/11 do so.

Snakepit Give It A Rest Already - 9/11 WAS AN INSIDE JOB!

Snakepit you live in a world darkness. And if you look toward the light of reason and take the time to educate yourself on Politics maybe you would understand the use of False Flags. These events are time immemorial and found throughout history.

AS OUR COUNTRY CREEPS INTO FASCISM IT IS THOSE LIKE YOURSELF WHO ALLOW IT TO HAPPEN!

As I have commented on your previous posts on 9/11, "Wake Up And Smell The Coffee!"

FOR GOD SAKE MAN, THE FBI HELPED THE EGYPTIAN WITH THE ORDINANCE FOR 1993 WTC BOMBING! IT'S IN THE COURT RECORD! THAT'S WHY HE WAS NOT CONVICTED!
http://www.nytimes.com/1993/10/28/nyregion/tapes-depict-prop...

THE FBI DID NOT HAVE BIN LADEN ON THE MOST WANTED LIST AFTER 9/11 BECAUSE THEY HAD NO EVIDENCE OF HIS INVOLVEMENT! HE DENIED IT!
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/16/inv.binladen.denial/in...

WAKE UP MAN!!!!!

THE MAJOR BANKS ARE LAUNDERING DRUG MONEY AND NO ONE IS GOING TO PRISON! A NEW INCIDENT AND FINES ARE ANNOUNCED IN THE NEWS, BY THE TIME THE LAST INCIDENT IS BARELY A MEMORY! HSBC IS JUST THE LATEST!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2174785/HSBC-scandal...

I leave you all with this excerpt from one of my favorite SciFi's -
But always remember, "Truth is stranger than fiction."

[James Cole found a spider and knows he's got to take it with him, let's it crawl over his hand while deciding what to do with it]

Jeffrey Goines: You know what crazy is? Crazy is majority rules. Take germs, for example.

James Cole: Germs?

Jeffrey Goines: Uh-huh. In the eighteenth century, no such thing, nada, nothing. No one ever imagined such a thing. No sane person, anyway. Ah! Ah! Along comes this doctor, uh, uh, uh, Semmelweis, Semmelweis. Semmelweis comes along. He's trying to convince people, well, other doctors mainly, that's there's these teeny tiny invisible bad things called germs that get into your body and make you sick. Ah? He's trying to get doctors to wash their hands. What is this guy? Crazy? Teeny, tiny, invisible? What do you call it? Uh-uh, germs? Huh? What? Now, cut to the 20th century. Last week, as a matter of fact, before I got dragged into this hellhole. I go in to order a burger in this fast food joint, and the guy drops it on the floor. Jim, he picks it up, he wipes it off, he hands it to me like it's all OK. "What about the germs?" I say. He says, "I don't believe in germs. Germs is just a plot they made up so they can sell you disinfectants and soaps." Now he's crazy, right? See?

[James Cole finally takes the spider into his mouth, Jeffrey Goines is either too deep into his talk or unimpressed by this and continues his talk as if nothing happened]

Jeffrey Goines: Ah! Ah! There's no right, there's no wrong, there's only popular opinion. You... you... you believe in germs, right?

- 12 Monkeys (1995)

Brother you have issues and need to deal with them before you start attacking those who would help you and protect you in name of the Republic!

This fallacy is called....

...Appeal to Tradition.

Free market capitalism isn't right for America because it works better. It's right because it's free (and it works better).

and those who believe the "official story" must also believe...

in "Santa Claus," the "Tooth Fairy" and that Mitt Romney had political principles.

This fallacy is called....

...an ad hominem attack. Basically claiming that you must be childishly stupid to believe the "official story". Also, it is a straw man fallacy to restate my position incorrectly by claiming that I believe the "official story". If we are really getting technical, it is a false dilemma fallacy to assume that there are only two options, either you believe the official story, or you believe it was an inside job. There are other options, but I'm impressed that you used three fallacies in such a short post.

Free market capitalism isn't right for America because it works better. It's right because it's free (and it works better).

How is this discussion not salient?

"I remember when people here discussed topics related to the ideas Ron Paul was bringing up every day."

Can you not see that our country's murderous foreign policy and the continued erosion of our liberties are predicated by the narrative of this event? What would be the outcome of changing this narrative in the minds of the governed?

Objectivism, the philosophy of liberty.

http://www.about.me/codyturner

This fallacy is called....

...post hoc ergo propter hoc. Basically, assuming that because something happened after something else, that the second thing was caused by the first thing. We had a murderous foreign policy before 9/11. It's not like we needed this event to invade other countries. We've been doing that. Isn't it easily possible that you have this backwards? This event was a result of our foreign policy, not the initial cause.

Free market capitalism isn't right for America because it works better. It's right because it's free (and it works better).

Fair enough, let me propose a simple edit.

"Perpetuated" rather than "predicated".

Objectivism, the philosophy of liberty.

http://www.about.me/codyturner

um

well, except that is the stated reason Bush et al used to invade the other countries--after 9/11. and, um well, aren't you doing a bit of 'post hoc ergo' yourself? eg: Because of our foreign policy, 9/11 happened? What if the events were in no way causal or related other than the way they were being linked in people's minds by the media after 9/11?
Here's another point: a little Latin does not a critical thinker make.
Middle school? That's about right. Do you take this disdainful tone with your students too?
Poor kids.

"Any government that is big enough to give everything you need is also strong enough to take it all away."

Im not trying to speak Latin.

That is just the name of the fallacy. In addition, I don't get this disdainful tone with my students, or even my friends who are truthers. Like many people online, I feel much less motivation to be tactful when communicating with people I will never meet.

Free market capitalism isn't right for America because it works better. It's right because it's free (and it works better).

Grouping everyone under this

Grouping everyone under this umbrella of yours is not very accurate. Perhaps the people you describe are the only truthers you've encountered, but it's still disingenuous to throw out their conclusion based upon your disagreement with either their tactics or even the fact that they have a myriad of differing arguments.

I've been a member here almost 5 and a half years. I've seen very strange and unbelievable arguments put forth by truthers, but I've also seen the very same level of thought put forth by believers in the official story--grasping at anything and even presenting things that have been already shown to be inaccurate or false. Contrariwise, I've seen very cogent, logical, scientific, and accurate arguments for 9/11 truthers, and I've seen them thoroughly rebut lesser arguments from the likes of Popular Mechanics, for example.

In one sense I certainly agree with you: in order to be productive, and out of our respect for ourselves and one another, we should always endeavor toward the highest level of discussion--the most integrity and consistency in our arguments no matter which side we are on. But be careful of casting too many stones--there are quite a few logical fallacies in your post. ;)

This fallacy is called....

....hasty generalization, and yes, I am guilty of it. Sorry.

Free market capitalism isn't right for America because it works better. It's right because it's free (and it works better).

No harm done.

No harm done. We all have our days that things get to us and we've probably all posted at least one "rant." I know I've done it probably several times. The important thing is that we do want the same thing and we agree as to how we should get there--in this case we want the truth (whatever that is) and we want people to arrive at it through reason, logic, fact-checking, etc. These are good things, and even though I apparently stand on the other side of the 9/11 issue as you, I do stand with you in our fight for liberty and integrity.

*yawn*

*yawn*

Resist the temptation to feed the trolls.

writing yawn

means you don't like the post but have nothing intelligent to say

It means I think it is yet another divisive

It means I think it is yet another divisive bullsh1t post meant to make everyone go negative and distract us from current events. Look at all the down votes. It's not just me...

Resist the temptation to feed the trolls.

I understand your where you are coming from a bit...

There are many in the 911 Truth Movement that have a difficult time sticking with facts. There are other Truthers that are really plants by those who believe the official story that simply try to subjugate the truth with wild accusations and misinformation.

But....... do you really search for the truth? Please watch this video. If you can watch this not see some facts that are devastating to the official story, then you are either a shill, a plant or simply over educated.

Please check out Architects and Engineers for 911 Truth. Please.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ddz2mw2vaEg

DJP333's picture

You are the only one

That put a link to this documentary on this entire discussion! I would have thought this is all you needed to point out on this topic. Please watch the video if you think "truthers" are nuts.

"It’s not pessimistic, brother, because this is the blues. We are blues people. The blues aren’t pessimistic. We’re prisoners of hope but we tell the truth and the truth is dark. That’s different."

The entire point of the Atta Passport is missed...

...the story is never heard from again because it was not found. The question the so-called Truther's ask (if they actually ask it) is who planted it? When the question is, why was it reported that it was found when it wasn't?

Another example was the story that Jews were told not to work at WTC on 9/11--that story first ran on the Jerusalem Post, and then they pulled it; it still kicks around on further Right sites.

So go on posting about fallacies, rather than getting at some truth about the power of media to manipulate consciousness.

Longtime Internet Poster

You are right

Truthers want to see the truth and they see the truth.

Now the question is what do liars want to see?

Why does his disagreement with truthers

Make him a liar? That's your implication, is it not?