2 votes

Seems like many here are split on Immigration - Requesting answers from YOU (ALL) *UPDATED*

**I am updating this post because some here, specifically some of those that have refused to answer some of these questions, have whined about this being a "BAIT" piece. Really? Is that the best you got at evading the questions? Can't answer a few questions, huh? Did these particular questions strike a nerve that make it too uncomfortable for you to answer honestly? For those of you that fall into that category, you may want to ask yourselves if perhaps the real reason you're avoiding those questions, while getting so extremely defensive about them, doesn't have to do with something more than you're willing to admit. Sometimes we don't like to be confronted with the ugly truth do we? For some, it's obviously just too much to handle.**:

For those of you that would like to answer objectively, without assumptions and suspicions, by all means.....

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Original Post begins now:

Aside from the comments left on this post: http://www.dailypaul.com/280997/anonymous-vs-israel-it-is-on... aside as recent COUNTLESS others;

I have a few questions for some here that oppose "illegal" immigration.

Do you support and abide by tax laws ONLY out of fear of repercussions and penalties?
Do you support the drug laws since drugs are "illegal" by "law"?
Do you support the Constitution and reject Un-Constitutional laws?
Is there a place anywhere in the Constitution or Bill of Rights that speaks on "LEGAL" immigration? "The Right To Travel" comes to mind. Think about that one for a second.

Lastly, regardless of whether you support a "law" or not, will you still abide by it due to it being Un-Constitutional? Or does this ONLY apply to the 2nd Amendment with you "Liberty" guys here?

I'm sure some here will most likely argue that the Constitution ONLY applies to Americans. Yet it's those SAME PEOPLE that will many times argue that they are GOD GIVEN RIGHTS, and that they can NOT be infringed on by a government. So which is it?

The point of this post is to possibly help bring us together(even a little), and to help me understand why some here denounce and reject certain laws while supporting certain other laws. Seems hypocritical to me. My fear is that it is only because it affects you personally.

Looking forward to those answers and arguments, with emphasis on certain members here as well that always seem to post/reply on "immigration issues".

*THIS POST HAS BEEN UPDATED TO ADD THE FOLLOWING QUESTIONS by user AngieDfromAL*:
http://www.dailypaul.com/281025/seems-like-many-here-are-spl...

What do those of you who oppose immigration want to see happed? Should we not allow anyone to immigrate to the US?
Are you familiar with our current immigration policy and how difficult (nearly impossible) it is for people who are latino and have no higher education to come here?

Also, what do you think should be done about the millions of illegal immigrants who are already here?

Also added is this article by Judge Andrew Napolitano:
http://reason.com/archives/2013/01/31/immigration-and-freedom




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Open borders, automated radiation detectors, no handouts.

If there is work people will come to do it, without handouts they will leave to work elsewhere.

Cheap and effective, low overhead.

Free includes debt-free!

Business pushes immigration reform even as it lays off American

workers

http://washingtonexaminer.com/business-pushes-immigration-re...

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself.
Friedrich Nietzsche

Constitution notwithstanding...

..I am in favor of completely open-borders (with the exception of armed troops).

Otherwise, your survey is much too cumbersome to contemplate.

Thank you for playing.

dynamite anthrax supreme court white house tea party jihad
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West of 89
a novel of another america
https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/161155#longdescr

I will answer in my own way.

We already have laws on the books concerning immigration that are NOT being enforced, which has already cost millions, billions since inception.

I will only support Constitutionally abided by laws.

I WHOLEHEARTEDLY REJECT ANY AND ALL language pertaining to including Biometric Identification. PERIOD!!

Bring the troops home. Let them secure OUR borders, and spend money at HOME.

This is my VETTING process to weed out NEOCons/RINO's from true Liberty Conservatives.

2014 Liberty Candidate Thread: http://www.dailypaul.com/287246/2014-liberty-candidate-thread

2016 Potential Presidential Candidates: http://alturl.com/mt7tq

"What if the American people learn the truth" - Ron Paul

What is so great about the U.S.?

What makes the United States so SUPERIOR to the countries that these immigrants are leaving?

What is so wonderful here that makes them want to leave their homes to live in a foreign country as a minority?

Why don't they just improve their own homelands?

Sorry, you just can't help everyone. Trying to "repair the world" is insanity.

"The “American Dream”—that anyone, from anywhere, could achieve fortune (and possibly fame) if they were prepared to work hard enough in the New World, has effectively crumbled under the twin modern liberal ideologies of outsourcing and mass immigration."
-The American Dream Crumbles into a Post-Industrial Multiracial Disaster

People come here because they

People come here because they can make a better wage to provide for their families. If I took a job in a neighboring state for better pay, I would not say that state is "superior".

As far as improving their homeland, that would require a bloody revolution to remove drug cartels and corrupt politicians. Maybe they don't want to kill, they just want to work? Also they do not have many weapons to match firepower with the gangs that cut off heads like it aint nothing.

Doesn't outsourcing fall under free markets? Do you wish the government to use coercive means to prevent companies from hiring employees at the cheapest price they can get them? Do you want free markets, or do you not want your standard of living driven down? It is one or the other.

The root of the problem is in our Welfare system

If we corrected the welfare system so that those coming here are not eligible for the first 5 years (meaning they have to work to live) immigration wouldn't be a problem.

This country was built on ambitious people coming here to work hard for a better life and I would like to see that kind of immigration continue. Unfortunately too many people today come here for the welfare and the politicians are happy to give it to them in return for their vote.

Take the welfare away and I'd say you could welcome anyone in and only those looking to work hard would come.

tasmlab's picture

I don't know

Really, I can't come to any sensible solution or approach that I would really tie my cart to.

Everything seems to have a secondary and tertiary lever that has to be addressed. E.g, if the borders are open, then the services have to be cut. If the services remain than the people must be shipped. Minimum wage exists. And then at the end, where is our empathy?

My own personal failure to come up with some perfect answer does make me suspect of people who have one. Most notably politicians.

Currently consuming: Harry Browne, Free Domain Radio; JT Gatto and Holt; Wii U

Absolutely agree with

Absolutely agree with this.

This stuff is HARD, and requires much thought and debate. And in the end there will be no perfect solution, or even a solution that is 80% good.

Print 11 million green cards

Print 11 million green cards only and everyone who gets one gets in line. No future family members not in line. Secure the boarder simultaneously. No Amnesty and no welfare. Take it or leave it.

Personally

I would like to grab every single illegal alien and dropped them off at the border of Mexico.

But, reality we are too far in this and no way out. We must eliminate welfare, then illegal aliens wouldn't be too much of a problem.

Immigration

I will never fault anyone looking for a better life. I do not obey unjust laws and will accept the consequence as an act civil disobedience. illegal imagration is also an act of civil disobedience. The welfare state is what is broken.

Hmmm

"illegal imagration is also an act of civil disobedience."

Very interesting analogy, thank you.

13-year-old girl raped by more than a dozen illegal aliens in

Texas

http://www.examiner.com/article/more-than-a-dozen-illegal-al...

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself.
Friedrich Nietzsche

U.S. Border Patrol Deporting Illegal Alien with 37 Criminal

Convictions in USA

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/us-border-patrol-deporti...

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself.
Friedrich Nietzsche

COPS: Illegal alien with fake ID sexually assaulted women at

7-11...

http://www.myfoxny.com/story/22919931/woman-sexually-attacke...

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself.
Friedrich Nietzsche

Woman, 93, raped and beaten by illegal dies...

http://www.ketv.com/news/local-news/93-year-old-woman-dies-a...

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself.
Friedrich Nietzsche

If I could find a list of

If I could find a list of crimes committed by U.S. Citizens, does that mean all citizens should be deported too?

You are making a case against immigration because some people will do evil stuff. Would you also like to present a list of crimes committed by legal gun owners, and then suggest that means all gun ownership should be banned as the solution?

Lumping everyone in a group together because of the actions of a few, is bigotry. You have a collectivist mind set towards others, but I bet you want to be seen as an individual.

Answers - From the Best

You have a lot of questions so I'll answer in the order asked:

1)No
2)No
3)Yes
4)Article 1 Section 8
5)I will abide by all laws but if they are wrong or unconstitutional I will challenge them. It is when those "due processes" are ignored that you are to take up arms against your government. We haven't reached that point.
6)The Constitution applies to the US Government as given by US Citizens. The protections offered may or may not apply to non-US citizens depending on what provision you are looking at.
7)I don't oppose immigration. I do oppose open borders and illegal immigration.
8)I am familiar. It is also hard for a citizen of Canada to come to the USA. It is, however, much easy here than almost every other country.
9)Good question with no good solution. Either way the US is screwed. It is dangerous to have people come into a country without knowledge of the customs and traditions of a country while at the same time you can't kick out people that are vital to current operations. Sadly, the current bill that passed the Senate doesn't solve either one of those questions.

Im not split. I know exactly where I stand.

My father came to America from Germany post WWII. Sailmaker and carpentry were his skills and he worked cheap, it was not an easy life... but he was a proud new American destined to make his life a good one. Upon arrival he was thoroughly checked over by immigration after a long trip on a slow boat. The Americans (because of Hitler) had bombed his home, destroyed his lands and destroyed his future way of life. So with little future left in Germany, he came to america alone with nothing but himself and his meager skill set. He spent his effort learning the American way of life and cherished it. He learned English immediately and at that time, immigration was not easy. He had to be sponsored, he had to prove he had a job and was gainfully employed. He went through a rigorous and trying time where he was ridiculed and made to feel inferior. What did he do? He joined the Army Airborn Infantry. He was destined to prove his commitment to the United States of America. This is what immigration should look like. If you are not willing to take up the culture, learn the ways of the people and learn the language, you have no business being here. Illegal immigration should be simple, you get caught... you go back. The migrant worker illegal is BS. This should not be confused with any form of hatred, or racism. It is not. I assure you I really do love all good people. I care not about the color of the skin. But we in America have let our laws become too lax and it is costing the people too greatly. They say no American would work a farm job for 9.00 an hour... NO SHIT! THAT IS SLAVE LABOR IN THIS DAY AND AGE! Had we had a real market economy and actually fought against the slavery of our day and controlled the immigration problem long ago, farmers (and other industries) would not be in this predicament in the first place. Now we have a problem that is just too big to NOT fail. Millions of illegals get in while those who work hard for real immigration get rejected. We have lost our way and need to find the path again. We don't need walls, we need laws that actually get enacted.

Right on the $$$.

Thank you. Couldn't have said it better. This is the just and humble way my people came here, too. They came in legally and submitted to all of the inconveniences that attended that process. They didn't hop a fence, hide out, and/or take to the streets and demand *free* citizenship without sacrifice. The government and businesses didn't print all forms in their language to make it easier for them. They sure-as-Hell didn't take welfare handouts, and they paid the same BS taxes as people around them.

They made the effort to connect with immigrants and citizens of other ethnicities and with those whose families had been Americans for generations, even whose ancestors fought to create this nation. They proudly mastered the English language and reverently learned American history--with its many great moments... and with all of its sad tragedies, inconsistencies, and injustices--and made it their own. They struggled pitifully, worked hard, eventually excelled and contributed and expected nothing from anyone and blamed no one for their own failures or hard circumstances. They also largely retained their own heritage, language, and customs (which to me seemed all the sweeter to them the older they became) and always shared these ways with others generously.

I suppose they saw the importance of different layers or tiers of community: from their neighborhood and own ethnic group all the way up to the country at large, and they graciously and responsibly participated in their America, embracing its flag as their own.

What would the Founders do?

It takes a passion for a better life

and a lot of guts to leave the country of your birth, swim, hide in a truck, tunnel whatever to go illegally to another country where you may or may not get a job, get government assistance, have a chance to live a little bit better, etc. Imagine the fear. Most foreigners stay in their own country and say "well, this is the way it is. We better just do what we are told and do the best we can"

If they could not come here they would be the same people to start a revolution in their own country to try to change the things that oppress and corrupt.

They would be us.

That was great, thanks.

I could not imagine doing all that with only a backpack, the clothes on my back, and a few pesos. Then heading to a place where I did not understand the language, and where I would be treated as an 'Alien'/scumbag.

I admire every last one of them. They also have a streak of libertarian in them by realizing that the arbitrary lines drawn by tax farmers are just that.

I would really like to know

How can one implement any immigration policy without breaking the law? I have looked at this issue every which way I can but I cannot find any logically congruent way within law to implement an immigration policy without violating the law.

If anyone can please explain to me how it is even possible to not break the law with enforcement of any immigration policy I really want to know. I am serious here. I only look for logical congruency within all law to find out what is indeed LAW. Just like scientific law Real law requires no conflicts for something to be law otherwise we are a nation of men's opinions and not a nation of law.

When using this standard of law, every which way I look at attempting to have ANY immigration policy only results in felony crimes being required to be committed to enforce such policy.

Please someone answer this because I take no stance outside of law and if anyone can demonstrate to me how immigration policy can be implemented without committing crime to enforce that policy then I really want to know what logically congruent path I have missed here. I cannot find the lawfully congruent path at this point but I am all ears if someone can show me.

The most powerful Law of Nature is Time. It is finite and we all will run out of it. Use this Law to your advantage, for it offers you infinite possibilities...

My 2 cents on the

No Law

There is no law that creates a so called Illegal Alien, if there was one, then someone could point to it, so this is all a part of Bread and Circuses, or Divide and Conquer.

Like the spiders web.

Joe

as a practical libertarian,

as a practical libertarian, the immigration policy you support should be the one most likely to produce a population amenable to libertarian political traditions.

people with a low degree ethnocentrism, high individualism, some property and education, wide lteracy literacy, a long custom of the nuclear family and political liberty in government in their culture, separation of government and religion, separation of governmental powers, representative institutions, a long history of market economies, high iq and low time preference (capital accumulation, thrift, savings, work, self reliance).

people who can afford to come here with some property and expectation of useful employment, are more likely to be politically sympathetic to libertarianism, in addition to the above factors.

this would mean in practice a quota of some 100,000 or so people a year, mainly from europe and east asia, who have the patience, means, property and a reasonable expectation of being able to integrate successfully into a western political tradition.

don't come back with ludicrous dogmas about the evil of laws and borders, i will just laugh at you. if all property is private, than immigration law would be the collective agreement of all owners on who would be allowed to trespass on their property. that would mean no immigration policy at all, just individual walls and borders or group agreements in specified cooperative private land holdings. if public property is allowed to exist in your ideology, that that too would be subject to the consensus of the already existing citizens and owners of property. there is sound proletarian argument for open immigration.

ideological blinders and naive, fanatic commitment to utopian ideals of a world without borders will just result in a bedlam of balkanized, politically fractious identity groups with no regard, interest or tradition of anything resembling political liberty, out to use the state for their own interests and collective group goals, as we are seeing emering all throughout western countries today, and can be 0bserved through history in any combination of multiculturalism + democratic politics.

if you want a squabbling empire of divided, ethnocentric, intolerant groups engaged in identity politics and mutual group hatred and self-advocacy, ruled by a cognitively superior, wealthy elite minority isolated in gated communities, escorted by armed guards, using authoritarian means and doling out benefits to keep an impoverished, revolutionary mob at bay, with zero political liberty for you, support open immigration by all means.

if you want massive wealth and ability inequality, no middle class, no consensus on the form of the political order, no tradition or regard for libertarian or individualistic cultural norms and traditions, and no regard for property aside from the regard that comes from the barrel of a gun, by all means support the eestablishments' primary political program and goal of divide and conquer, multiculturalism and open borders.

you, the middle class, individualist, average law biding american or european, will by fscked with a capital F. whatever property you do manage to acquire through your thrift and work will be gobbled up by a mob of poor, indolent, hungry collectvists organized to expropriate your individual property for their group benefit. you will have no liberty no representation, and will have no choice but to join some ethnic interest group, or submit to authoritarian organization to protect your property and your person and advocate your interests.

your whole society will be a mirror image on a continental scale of conditions that prevail in prison. gang members by necessity, even if not by inclination. ethnic chaos will not produce ethnic tolerance and individualism, but massively amplify ethnocentrism, as the prison analogy should demonstrate.

of you want a world of prison rules, a prison state, authoritarian minority using the state to control an impoverished, alienated majority, keep up your mindless evasion of reality and the lessons of history and the real world. multiculturalism will create a giant prison rules society of collectivist conflict over political resources, as it always has.

get your heads out of the sands, or give up thinking, its not for you.

adieu

Thank you for this!

Your realism is greatly appreciated. Illegal immigration is a critical part of the NWO strategy to destroy this country. (It is true genius on their part, actually--you gotta hand it to 'em: they know what they're doing!)

What would the Founders do?

Nope Nope Nope

This post is latent race baiting.

-quiet engineer

I have to comment on another part of your post

I'm sure some here will most likely argue that the Constitution ONLY applies to Americans. Yet it's those SAME PEOPLE that will many times argue that they are GOD GIVEN RIGHTS, and that they can NOT be infringed on by a government. So which is it?

1. The Constitution DOES only apply to American's - it is an American document only vaild within the borders of the United States. To say the Constitution applies to all men - is to say that UN resolutions apply to all people on earth.
2. The God Given Rights part is actually from the Declaration of Independence. I assure you it did not say you had a God Given Right to move whereve you wanted whenever you wanted and laws be damned.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"

If you read the WHOLE document you will notice another little part:
"In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury"

The Declaration did say that men are also obligated to petition for redress - not just break whatever laws they damn well pleased and call it liberty.