2 votes

Seems like many here are split on Immigration - Requesting answers from YOU (ALL) *UPDATED*

**I am updating this post because some here, specifically some of those that have refused to answer some of these questions, have whined about this being a "BAIT" piece. Really? Is that the best you got at evading the questions? Can't answer a few questions, huh? Did these particular questions strike a nerve that make it too uncomfortable for you to answer honestly? For those of you that fall into that category, you may want to ask yourselves if perhaps the real reason you're avoiding those questions, while getting so extremely defensive about them, doesn't have to do with something more than you're willing to admit. Sometimes we don't like to be confronted with the ugly truth do we? For some, it's obviously just too much to handle.**:

For those of you that would like to answer objectively, without assumptions and suspicions, by all means.....

==================================================================

Original Post begins now:

Aside from the comments left on this post: http://www.dailypaul.com/280997/anonymous-vs-israel-it-is-on... aside as recent COUNTLESS others;

I have a few questions for some here that oppose "illegal" immigration.

Do you support and abide by tax laws ONLY out of fear of repercussions and penalties?
Do you support the drug laws since drugs are "illegal" by "law"?
Do you support the Constitution and reject Un-Constitutional laws?
Is there a place anywhere in the Constitution or Bill of Rights that speaks on "LEGAL" immigration? "The Right To Travel" comes to mind. Think about that one for a second.

Lastly, regardless of whether you support a "law" or not, will you still abide by it due to it being Un-Constitutional? Or does this ONLY apply to the 2nd Amendment with you "Liberty" guys here?

I'm sure some here will most likely argue that the Constitution ONLY applies to Americans. Yet it's those SAME PEOPLE that will many times argue that they are GOD GIVEN RIGHTS, and that they can NOT be infringed on by a government. So which is it?

The point of this post is to possibly help bring us together(even a little), and to help me understand why some here denounce and reject certain laws while supporting certain other laws. Seems hypocritical to me. My fear is that it is only because it affects you personally.

Looking forward to those answers and arguments, with emphasis on certain members here as well that always seem to post/reply on "immigration issues".

*THIS POST HAS BEEN UPDATED TO ADD THE FOLLOWING QUESTIONS by user AngieDfromAL*:
http://www.dailypaul.com/281025/seems-like-many-here-are-spl...

What do those of you who oppose immigration want to see happed? Should we not allow anyone to immigrate to the US?
Are you familiar with our current immigration policy and how difficult (nearly impossible) it is for people who are latino and have no higher education to come here?

Also, what do you think should be done about the millions of illegal immigrants who are already here?

Also added is this article by Judge Andrew Napolitano:
http://reason.com/archives/2013/01/31/immigration-and-freedom

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I have read your post and see you are angry over this

First - I have read no other posts - so I wont comment on them.
I will however answer your questions.

Do you support and abide by tax laws ONLY out of fear of repercussions and penalties?
Income tax - yes. Know when you are outgunned and come back to fight another day.

Do you support the drug laws since drugs are "illegal" by "law"?
I have never taken illegal drugs in my life so dont really care - but at the end of the day I do not "support" them. I tend to speak out against them.

Do you support the Constitution and reject Un-Constitutional laws?
Yes.

Is there a place anywhere in the Constitution or Bill of Rights that speaks on "LEGAL" immigration? "The Right To Travel" comes to mind. Think about that one for a second.
The Constitution is the supremem law of the land, not the only law of the land. Gosh - if it was they forgot some important things like murder and theft.

Lastly, regardless of whether you support a "law" or not, will you still abide by it due to it being Un-Constitutional? Or does this ONLY apply to the 2nd Amendment with you "Liberty" guys here?
I try to abide by all laws. That does not mean I support them - it means I try to live my life on the proper side of the law. If you dont like a law - change it - dont break it.

Now to the follow up questions
What do those of you who oppose immigration want to see happed?
Should we not allow anyone to immigrate to the US?
First - you have to realize - immigration is NOT i repeat NOT the problem. The problem is the real or percieved hand out being given.
If immigration only meant coming here and having opportunity to work - the only people who would care would be those whose work they were taking - and frankly - that is not a lot by the numbers. The issue is with those coming here, contributing nothing and getting things in return. A short list of how this hurts ME.
1. I have to pay to have English as a second language programs in my school budget.
2. I have to have all state documents printed on both languages. Again costing me money
3. When I go to the hospital, I have to pay for the services they receive and do not pay for - of course I have to do this with Americans too - but somehow that only bothers me half as much - call me a nationalist.
4. I have to pay for undocumented students to get in state tuition at state universities
5. Oh - while we are at it on the old state universities - why are undocumented student(or for that matter even foreign students on visas) given acces to my tax funded school while the kids of parents who are paying the taxes get swept aside?
6. I could go on - but the post is already a little long - the point is - whether you admit it or not - they are being GIVEN opportunities those of us who did not break the law do not have access to.

Also, what do you think should be done about the millions of illegal immigrants who are already here?
They broke the law. Plain and simple. Pay restitution or leave. Restitution starts with filing income taxes since day one you entered and paying back taxes and penalties. Then go onto enourmous community hours. Then require them to pass all tests in English(taught by someone NOT getting paid with tax dollars).
And then you get a permanent visa - not citizenship. And that goes for all family members here - born here or not. The first citizen of the family will be the first one born here AFTER they obtain a visa.
And no free services funded by tax dollars.

Think thats harsh. Too bad. Why is it modern immigrants think it is just them??? OK - Ill cut to it - why is it just the latinos that think this way. My family is of Irish decent.
Have you ever seen the following sign: Help wanted - Irish need not apply.
My dad has.
My dad used to say - it was the blacks and Irish - fighting to NOT be the lowest one on the totem pole. He worked when he was twelve and NEVER took a handout his whole life.
The Irish were treated like dirt in America. And most being Catholic were treated even worse because of that. Did they teach English as a second language and have teachers fluent in Gaelic. Nope.
Did they say - well geesh look at this red headed people with fair skin - better get a program to give them free suntan lotion.
Nope
They came here and were thrown on the streets and were expected to work like dogs and prove they could hack it in the greatest country on earth.

Maybe that why is was the greatest country on earth - nothing given is ever appreciated - only that which is earned.

Now - I do not get defensive - but I will be damned if someone is going to walk across the border like the prodigal son returning and demand things from me and my family. My family earned their way - they paid thier dues. You want into the club - start at the bottom like the rest of us and work your way up.

My Mom's parents came over on the boat...

and they couldn't just come waltzing in..they had to have a sponsor! Someone who would personally vouch for them as being law-abiding, contributing people. To sponsor someone was a BIG deal...because had my grandfather gotten in trouble with the law for any reason during his 2-year probationary period, the SPONSOR would be thrown in the hooscow also! One could not get a drivers license until they passed an English proficiency exam. There were lots of rules and regulations that encouraged immigrants to 'become American'. My grandparents would only speak English while in public...they changed their style of dress, hair...how they would greet people...everything they could to "fit in" in their newly adopted home.
My HUGE PROBLEM with folks from south of the boarder (I grew up around them, so I know) is that the vast majority have no interest in assimilating into American culture and lifestyle. They want to come here for a better life for their families..I get that..but don't leave some 3rd-world sesspool and try to turn MY country into another 3rd-world sesspool!! Speak English, become American...culture and heritage is good, but DO IT AT HOME!!! Every time I go into a Home Depot or Lowe's I fill out a complaint form that they are commiting treason by having signs in spanish...I demand that they change all signage to English-only.
I also believe what Ron Paul explained to us...that if we stop giving out the free-bees, most will simply go home. There should be NO free-bees for ANYONE!!! Stealing from you to give something to me is wrong....and that's exactly what our government has been doing.
End of rant.

------------------
BC
Silence isn't always golden....sometimes it's yellow.

"The liberties of a people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." - Patrick Henry

The culture I see in America

is war, tyranny, extortion, commercial prisons, brainwashing education, forced pharmaceuticals for children, chemtrails, Police state, papers, public groping to move around, checkpoints, insane zombie shoppers trampling over each other during the cultural "holidays", materialism, arrogance, corporate death food, corruption, debt slavery to a mathematically guaranteed to fail private corporate currency, no one wanting to accept liability for their own actions, mind control presstitute propaganda, taxation without representation, slimebag lying politics, and.....

Is this the culture they will not assimilate to that you are talking about? Are you the correct decider of another's culture and where they may practice it?

The most powerful Law of Nature is Time. It is finite and we all will run out of it. Use this Law to your advantage, for it offers you infinite possibilities...

I don't post here much but I

I don't post here much but I will give my 2 cents.

From what I can gather, this country was founded on immigration...all the way back to the very first folks who sailed across the sea and murdered the indigenous population and claimed the land as their own (or property of their rulers)...and maybe even farther back then that (beringia theories?).

My entire family immigrated here (some from mexico, ireland, france, and italy). I've also been lucky enough I guess to have the experience of working with several undocumented workers (from west africa, near east, and mexico), and from my experience they are hard-working and nice people. So I easily dismiss the claims that they are all lazy and/or criminals. Not to say that those elements don't exist but I do not believe it is a trait inherent in any culture or ethnicity.

So where those all the animosity stem from then? It seems to boil down to the fact that the economy is a wreck and/or we give away too much free stuff (we = gov't). Great, two areas I think we really need to have a discussion about.

The biggest complaint I hear though is that these undocumented workers don't pay any taxes. I have a family member who makes sure everyone knows that. "They don't pay any taxes!" he says...well that is a good point I suppose if you are worried about maintaining the status quo system of taxation. As for me, I don't necessarily want the feds getting anymore tax revenue because they spend it on stuff I don't really like (drones, wars of agression, MRAP vehicles, foreign bribes aid, etc...).

I guess I don't get the problem, but then again I don't know everything and am just writing from my narrow perspective of the situation. If anybody can further elaborate on the problems I'm happy to read. Not looking for a debate but just happy to hear more takes on the issue. Peace.

For someone that doesn't post much here

I appreciate that you took the time to share your thoughts here. Thank you for your "personal" perspective which is validated through experience and not just heresay/rumors. It still boggles my mind how people on the DailyPaul(of all places!) go by that, yet when questioned if they've had any "real personal" experience, they resort to a 20 second shouting match they had - ONCE - with an Latino.

As for them not paying taxes, actually most of them do. It's well known that some opt to use a fake/stolen social security number in order to obtain a better paying job where they indeed pay taxes, yet they won't see any of the benefits of having paid in to "their" social security since it was someone else's number.

Another way that isn't too well known is that most illegals obtain what is known as a "Tax ID number". This number is used instead of a social security in order to pay taxes. Why would they "want" to pay taxes? Because it establishes a record/proof of their having been in this country AND legally paying taxes if the time comes when amnesty is offered. This shows that they've been here since at least a certain date, and also shows that they didn't "avoid" paying taxes, but instead wanted to contribute to the country. Tax ID's have also been used in the past to open up bank accounts which also establishes a valid record for them. Your relative doesn't have all the facts when it comes to this. There are others throughout this thread who have chimed in that knew of illegal coworkers/employees that pay their taxes annually. It's to their benefit.

Thanks again for sharing.

almost forgot about

almost forgot about this...but thanks for the input!

Immigration Bill Contains 'MarcoPhones'

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/04/17/Immigrati...

From the article: "Interestingly, TracFone, a company that will likely benefit from this type of government program, is based in Rubio’s Miami, Florida."

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself.
Friedrich Nietzsche

LOL. I posted a few responses

LOL. I posted a few responses below, but this IS a "bait piece". Anti-immigration ideas can't be supported by anything other than EMOTION. Just look at the responses!!!!

Asking someone to explain why they are afraid of foreigners is like asking a klansman to explain why black aren't human. Or asking a homophobic person why homos aren't human. Or asking a sexist why females aren't human. Some of them only want to benefit at the expense of foreigners(they steal our jobs/handouts), but even those still want to restrict a human's liberty.

You are asking people who fear/hate foreigners to explain their emotions on an open forum knowing good and well that they CAN'T without committing a logical fallacy (strawman, ad hominiem, appeal to emotion, etc.) or revealing their prejudice. You knew that fear/hatred of foreigners can't be defended reasonably, or logically, or economically BEFORE you posted.

;) Shame on you for prejudice baiting, LOL!!!

"I do not add 'within the limits of the law,' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the right of an individual."

ROFLMAO

No, no, and no - SMH! This is not a "BAIT" piece, however I can certainly see how someone who is "defensive" and sensitive about this topic could take it in that fashion. Thanks for finally explaining it to me - LOL

No, other than the 4th question, what these 5 questions ask, have NOTHING to do with "immigration", but have everything to do with looking at yourself with a different perspective and possibly learning something new about yourself, or teaching me something I was mistaken about. I found some people to be hypocritical, but I stopped myself from possibly wrongly "judging" these people as hypocrites, and thus proceeded to give them the benefit of the doubt by asking them to answer the following questions:

Do you support and abide by tax laws ONLY out of fear of repercussions and penalties?
Do you support the drug laws since drugs are "illegal" by "law"?
Do you support the Constitution and reject Un-Constitutional laws?
Is there a place anywhere in the Constitution or Bill of Rights that speaks on "LEGAL" immigration? "The Right To Travel" comes to mind. Think about that one for a second.

Lastly, regardless of whether you support a "law" or not, will you still abide by it due to it being Un-Constitutional? Or does this ONLY apply to the 2nd Amendment with you "Liberty" guys here?

I sincerely expected, and WRONGLY I may add, better dialogue and debate from my DP brethren. I was "hoping" that someone here would "SHOW" me that I was misjudging these people all along. BOY WAS I WRONG. Instead, all they "CHOSE" to "see" was that this was a "bait" piece and that I was "against them" and somehow looking to "expose" them. Expose them of what??? PLEASE TELL ME! I would argue that ONLY THOSE THAT FEAR EXPOSURE FEEL SHAME AND HAVE SOMETHING TO HIDE Are some here in that category? From the defensiveness and hostilities and lack of "RATIONAL" replies of some here, it would lead me to believe that the answer is "yes". The other responses to some questions I've rebutted within these comments have been met with evasiveness, the equivalent of demagoguing, and utter silence which speaks for itself. Why the lack of rational replies? Actions speak louder than words, you know?

GLASS HALF EMPTY OR GLASS HALF FULL:
Numerous times I've explained the reason for this post, and it's NOT a bait piece. But I can surely understand "why" some here would "choose" to look at it as such. No, the post was an effort on my part to have some people either:
A.) Re-examine their positions and hopefully learn something about themselves. Anything wrong with that???
or
B.) By answering my questions and explaining/showing me how they weren't being hypocritical, thus me learning a new perspective that I hadn't considered before. Anything wrong with that???
So is that baiting? No it's not.

Now on the other hand, maybe they couldn't handle the truth? Hence the feeling of being "baited"???

Who knows, maybe you're right dacaman12. Not on this being a "bait" piece as it was not my intention, but on ALL this post having achieved was confirming my suspicions all along. I guess in the end I did learn something after all. Just maybe not the answer I was hoping for from fellow DP members. Hopefully others have learned as well.

Thanks for you contributions to this thread thus far, and notably this one in particular.

Yeah, I know what you mean.

Yeah, I know what you mean. You'd think someone would have a really good explanation to go with their really strong emotions on the subject...

...In the end, the best "anti-immigration" argument presented is, "we don't want them to have the free stuff". Well, take a stand against gov't handouts, not against individual liberty!!!

Why shouldn't foreigners receive handouts from the gov't? Because gov't shouldn't be stealing our wages and handing them out TO ANYONE. This is the moral high-ground, not building fences!!!

Anything wrong with staying on point? If the handouts disappeared, it would be to the benefit of ALL. If we close the borders, some will (briefly) benefit at the expense of others.

... And, remember Hazlitt's one rule of economics: "The art of economics consists in looking not merely at the immediate but
at the longer effects of any act or policy; it consists in tracing the consequences of that policy not merely for one group but for all groups."

Anti-immigration is an idea that fails this test horribly, thus it's spot on the "bad economics" list, right there with all of the other ideas meant to benefit some at the expense of all others.

I wonder if peoples' feelings on the subject would change if there were no gov't handouts. I would HOPE that most would have an easier time acknowledging (and maybe, someday, helping to protect) human rights of foreigners, as well as their neighbors, if that were the case. If so, all the more reason to keep promoting the cause of liberty, and not letting side issues distract us and lead us to supporting ideas at the expense of said liberty.

"I do not add 'within the limits of the law,' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the right of an individual."

Aside from possible racism - I think you nailed it dacaman12

"In the end, the best "anti-immigration" argument presented is, "we don't want them to have the free stuff". Well, take a stand against gov't handouts, not against individual liberty!!!"

Excellent comment!

I'm against gov't handouts myself, but if we're going to deny taxpayers or U.S. citizens handouts and then turn around and give them to those that illegally crossed the border, or send millions overseas, I can certainly see the problem/injustice in that.

BTW - Sorry for the LATE reply. I was in the hospital for 2 weeks and just now managed to log in here after being laid up in bed.

Thanks!

I keep getting on these threads hoping to reason with people only to revert to ad-hominiem attacks myself. I just need to let go and let brown-a-phobes be brown-a-phobes.

brown-a-phobes LOL

That's both funny and accurate. It has always (at least as long as I have been a libertarian) confused me how those who would make an exception to the free market on the immigration issue, while defending Native Born American citizen's rights on virtually every other issue could even be attracted to a consistent idea like liberty.

Ron Paul has always said that without the welfare state, immigration wouldn't even be an issue. It would be nice if all of his followers would adopt the good will he feels for all peaceful people.

LOL

Yes, dacaman12 also pointed out above as the welfare state bearing much of the blame. To add to that, I also realize that regardless of reason, there are, have been, and sadly, possibly always will be racism.

BTW - Sorry for the LATE reply. I was in the hospital for 2 weeks and just now managed to log in here after being laid up in bed. Are you still here, or did you wind up leaving/taking a break? If you read this, know that I wish both you and your wife the best mwstroberg.

By the way,

what were you in the hospital for? Good luck for a speedy recovery.

Just saw down below.

As I understand it, Appendix usually causes problems in Childhood. Figured you were a young man, but didn't know how young!

Usually, but it hits us older folks on occasion as well.

Funny you mention that because I had thought the same and thought I was "in the clear" as far as appendicitis was concerned.

Thanks ecard.

I'm still here, although haven't seen any action on this post in a while.

I think the problem with the DP crowd isn't so much outright racism, but more of a cultural xenophobia with regard to Latinos. Somehow they get this idea that just because you are from South of the border, you are inherently more inclined to a life of violent crime and indolence than native born, English speaking Americans. This, in spite of the fact that surveys have shown Latinos less likely to be either criminal or indolent than other Americans of the same economic standing.

Glad you're still here!

Well there are many sayings such as; you can lead a horse to water, but cognitive dissonance comes to mind and I believe is applicable to some here.

I am 100% with you on that.

It is so un-libertarian. Go figure. At least we can relax about it knowing our suspicions are real. So now we know.

God,grant me the serenity
to except the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things I can,
and the wisdom to know the difference.

Ditto on that prayer dducks!

BTW - Sorry for the LATE reply. I was in the hospital for 2 weeks and just now managed to log in here after being laid up in bed.

No Way.

What happened, ecard? Hope you are okay.

Still recovering - It was my appendix

After a couple of days of abdominal pain (it wasn't localized to the bottom right which is why I didn't think "appendix"), I finally went to the hospital after the wife insisted. Turns out it had ruptured for a couple of days and caused peritonitis(infection). A couple of days after surgery (feeling GREAT & looking forward to going home), they found an obstruction and an infection that had spread through my body/blood. So off came the staples and I have been left with a 7 inch open wound ever since (supposed to close on its own). It's still hard to move around and the pain is "annoying", specifically because the inside of the wound has to be cleaned twice a day (*fun*) SMH.

I just logged in, and man, I can't believe how everyone went from praising Jon(the mod) before my last log on, to the attacks going on now. It seems like I haven't missed much though. Oh well...

Thanks for the concern dducks, I hope all is well with you.

Get Well, ecard.

Things have been a little turbulent around here. Michael is in London. Fake blood or no fake blood - that is the question that started it all. Take care now.

ECARD!! ECARD!!!

Come back! We miss you.

LOL

Thanks buddy, I'm sure you speak for everyone. (wink)

Sorry for the late response, but I hadn't logged on since we last "spoke", since it had been hard for me to actually sit at the computer. Been checking from time to time the "top ten" & the front page on my phone, but I'm sorry to say that this place has gone downhill somewhat(how many posts about Zimmerman -sheeesh?!).

I did manage to catch your post about appendectomy costs. Mine was 23K - just for the hospital stay - and not counting all the other "side" bills they hit you with.

My wound FINALLY closed up about 5 days ago. So much for the 30-60 day prognosis -SMH.

I just had to log in today because Cyril mentioned he had been mugged(sucks), and wanted to let him know I was happy he was okay(one lucky bastard). Then I saw your messages. Feels good to be missed.

How have you been dducks? Hope life's treating you good buddy. : )

ECARD71!!!!

WHERE ARE YOU? ARE YOU OKAY?

My View

DRY THEM UP..No agency should be allowed to give illegals anything. (medical help if needed..but should be life/death) Anyone caught with illegals working for them, need to be fined. Anchor babies need to stop. People come here to have kids they should be given the choice..leave with..or without..your child...cause lots want to adopt..right? Illegals should be stripped of everything...just as we are being stripped of what we work for to support them.
I have no problem with anyone coming here legally. But they are no better that I am...if I break the law I go to jail. They should not benefit from illegal activity.

I believe in Hope & Change..I Hope the government will Change
Spindale-Rutherford County-North Carolina