56 votes

Liberty, Can You Make a Little Room For Reality?

In America today some half of the population is dependent on direct assistance from the state. The great majority are those receiving social security and medicare in old age. The rest are on unemployment, whether by need or choice, and EBT, housing assistance, disability, etc.

If we count those who receive outsized tax credits in excess of what they paid, the number is greater.

Millions of others skate along the edge of poverty, working for a low wage, saving nothing, and foregoing assistance to which they could legally receive, out of principle, pride or habit.

Millions work directly for the state and depend on that employment for pensions and generous non monetary benefits.

Millions depend on public statute for matching contributions to medical and retirement benefits from private employers, and contribute to these benefits through payroll taxes.

Millions more work for corporations with direct ties and privileges from the state, foremost among them the gigantic financial sector.

Nearly all Americans have federally insured bank accounts, and save in US dollars with banks whose solvency and liquidity often depend on the policies of state.

Millions own treasury securities and mortgages the value of which are guaranteed by the full faith and credit of the government. If not directly, then through pension funds, mutual funds, 401ks, etc.

The middle class have their children schooled at public expense in public schools, and by and large do not wish to take on that extra expense. This middle class likewise has no desire to take in and support their aged parents.

These are not the poor, condemned wastrels of the public dole, oft cited in the anti state rhetoric. They are the self reliant, active, tax paying base of our political advances and appeals.

The state, to grow its power, to make itself the indispensable provider to every dependent, has worked to break down and replace every non state institution that in the past provided the supports and structures for the economic and political independence of families, communities, and individuals.

Consider.

A father works 12 hour days for 20 years to support his children; he never once accepts a dime in public aid. He neglects costly medical care to put food on the table, and dies. The widowed mother gladly accepts social security, to which she feels justly entitled. The extended family breathes a sigh of relief and is grateful to avoid the burden.

The state has just weakened the family.

A family is struggling to get by, to save a little, ever conscious of its comparative status. More than mere desire to keep up with the Jones'es, they work to skirt the edge of a neighborhood with a half decent school district. It leverages itself happily to the hilt to pay for a house. The state offers public aid for tuition. The family, mindful of the ruthless social sorting process of the climb toward a decent paying job, happily accepts the aid.

The disabled or inept cannot make ends meet. They turn to the state for public housing assistance and a monthly food or cash stipend. The local Church, its pews half empty, congregations of mostly grey heads, is closing parish schools every year.

A hearty thanks to the state and God's blessing upon it! The church is unburdened of the expense of public charity for these individuals.

The state has just weakened the Church and the community.

A working man, lacking the capacity to make more than 10 or 11 dollars an hour, accepts assistance from the state to provide for his people. His fellows do likewise.

The corporation rejoices! it is freed from the political pressure of the laborers. The labor movement breathes its last, unions dissolve, and the new order of the Global corporation has a free hand to find the most degraded, desperate pool of labor anywhere in the world to work for a subsistence wage.

The labor movement and the middle class is weakened.

The middle class father of two works and saves; his wife works and saves; they purchase the most expensive house they can afford, not out of vanity, but to give their children access to a school without metal detectors.

They save every dime for tuition to get the kids into a good school. They know that in the highly competitive sorting process a degree from a good university seems to count for everything.

The grandparents have soaring medical costs. This good middle class, Republican family doesn't for a minute consider paying those bills or taking the grandparents in, and foregoing the aid.

The state is strengthened, the family weakened.

An aging activist for Libertarian principles, after decades of unpaid, selfless service to his political cause, is at the end of his financial rope. He cannot work, has no medical insurance. He is faced with the unimaginably painful moral dilemma of taking state assistance, or facing abject misery.

Where are all the Libertarian comrades in arms who preach their gospel of dismantling the state? Where is the community of voluntarists to contribute to providing a minimum of dignity to this brother in arms?

What have they offered to ANY of the above individuals, besides pretty words that mean nothing?

*

Amidst all the polemicizing, rhetoric, electioneering, pamphleteering, and fruitless academic scribbling; the endless disagreements over every nuance, who has even taken the FIRST STEP toward providing any, let alone all, of the basic, fundamental structures and supports of social order and stability, in lieu of the state? Who has even suggested doing so?

Do any of you consider for a moment the absurdness and futility of trying to eliminate the state without first building a social structure outside of the state to provide these basic needs? Law and order, financial security, education, a functioning credit system, a stable payments system for commerce?

Do you just criticize, and build nothing, secretly knowing you will never achieve your goals?

Is it all just a game, a futile exercise in ideological wordplay, logical hairsplitting, and an intellectual diversion?

Or is it the sublimated expression of alienation from the present order, carried on with pens rather than arms, for the timid and weary?

Or a complex spinning of conceptual webs for addled brains?

None of it has even the slightest relation to the real world and the interests, needs and motivations of real people.

I am shocked at the complete immersion in ideology, the total disregard for the real nature of the social organism, of human behavior and motivations, and the total ineptness of the means chosen to effect even the least ambitious of stated ends.

Setting aside the purely fantastical notions and utopian dreams regularly disseminated here, ideas divorced from all history, sound logic and observed experience -- putting these aside -- even the narrowest range of possible goals of the voluntarists and minarchists almost never refer to real political conditions and practical realities, or how they could be realistically achieved.

No heed to the actual nature of human behavior, interests, motivations, social forces of power and influence, or how ideas are actually spread in society and institutions captured.

Instead they are set upon the wobbly legs of moral assertion, the clay feet of dogmatic ideology, and the eternal, impotent "ought" of what people "should" do rather than what they actually do; the "If..." that relies on a fundamentally different human nature than actually exists, and these, combined to form the axiomtic refrain "if everyone behaved as they ought, all would be well."

A Humble Plea For Realism

If you want to eliminate the state, you have to supplant the state, and replace the functions that legitimize it.

If you want to dislodge the present elite, you have to form an elite of your own and engage it in its own arena.

It did not argue its way into power; whatever absurdities belong to its ideology, and they are legion, it is not their ideology that brought them to their high place.

They got there by occupying the actual bases of social power, and by understanding the actual nature of the social organism. They did not convince anyone of anything by argument. How could you imagine you could win by argument what was won and is held by the exercise of power and the political acumen of propaganda?

*

The last refuge of the disappointed ideologue is the morbid indulgence in Apocalyptic wishful thinking. The belief that your Truth will prevail because the existing order, being False, cannot sustain, and must inevitably collapse in ruins. But friends, you fool yourselves there as well!

When the present deranged elite is done destroying the entire fabric of society, and a collapse does come, whether hastened by its opponents or not, the result will not be a flowering of Liberty, the holding of hands and the echo of a thousand voices raised in the praise of individual Liberty and non aggression.

No. Rather, a new, worse tyranny will arise, borne not of evil but of necessity, to restore basic order and security for hungry, disillusioned millions, morally and socially bankrupt, and turning to whatever primitive bonds of group cohesion that promise to allow at least survival and basic security, liberty be damned.

If you have not done your work to serve those functions when that time comes, you will be scattered to the winds, and remembered, if at all, as a fleeting, intellectual aberration, borne of the luxurious freedom of folly in a world secure and well fed.

But don't despair, the world will keep on turning, whether you're right or not. It does not care. And that is its most cruel insult.

Cheers!

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citing centralized banking as proof of no decentralization?

there is nothing fraudulent or fantasy about math & basic incentives.
When savings are low, interest rates go up. This encourages savings. When savings are high, interest rates go down. This encourages borrowing. Banks goal is to make money. Banks with relatively too high rates won't have revenue. Banks with relatively too low rates won't have capital savings. There becomes an equilibrium between savings & borrowing. Interest becomes the "price" of money not government fiat.
Requires breaking up big banks and their entanglements. And of course Ending the FED.

what did that have to do with Liberty or reality?

Liberty is a timeless concept
the "realities" presented are products of todays currant world.
consider,
it took approximately 5750 years to reach the first billion in population. (1850) we are now up to like 8 billion or so.
the reality is that the exploitation of "fossil fuels" has produced an environment, that allows people to be divorced from reality.

most people today are utterly dependent upon "fossil fuels" for there very existence and survival and yet, very few people are even aware of why they are called such.

Liberty, reality and human nature have not changed. what has changed is the ability to be divorced from them.
peace.

The author of this post has...

built his argument on the false assumption that anarchists oppose authoritarian rulers. Anarchist ideology is based on implausible fantasies because the intent is to lure advocates of limited government into a dead end where they'll be mugged by anarcho-barbarian rulers.

http://www.dailypaul.com/277342 (Rand Paul: One person can make a difference)
http://www.StandUpForYourRights.me/?p=1264 (Fast and Furious hearing)

You summarized a line of thought I have often.

We know what's going on and how they're doing it.

"What now?"

This is no reality check

It's more like a call for spineless moderation. You talk of understanding human nature but you say that: "If you want to eliminate the state, you have to supplant the state, and replace the functions that legitimize it.

If you want to dislodge the present elite, you have to form an elite of your own and engage it in its own arena."

You basically ignore the conclusions of the libertarian observations into human nature. The entire philosophy of liberty is based around the fact that the state will always encroach on the liberties of the populace no matter who the bearer of power is. The functions which "legitimize" the state is its monopoly on compulsion and coercion. The progress of liberty depends on the delegitimization of the state altogether. To say that the state must be replaced and that the powers must be shifted instead of decentralized is like arguing in favor of a new tyranny. Essentially what you are suggesting is that we give power to someone else and hope that they are more willing to work with us. If history has taught us one thing it is that people do not give up their power willingly.

You also ignore any basic understanding of economics and social cooperation under the division of labor. The entitlement programs which have built up massive unfunded liabilities will come to an end one way or another. The economy is going to bust because of government spending and intervention, not in spite of it.

You can observe the "social structures" which manifest voluntarily and spontaneously any time you buy something to fulfill your own desire for greater material well-being. The Austrian school of economic thought is growing in popularity every single day. There will be a lot of people that will suffer as a result of the collapse of the welfare state. But there will be a lot of people that understand that greater government power is not going to fix anything. There will still be people willing to satisfy society's demands. Economic growth has occured quite quickly in the past after mass liquidation of malinvestment.

There are plenty of people on this site that are contributing to progress. In case you haven't noticed, the movement is growing. I just do not think that capitulation is going to get us anything but the status quo or worse.

Sorry, but you're falling into the same trap he just descrbed.

What you just said sounds great. It's a nice intellectual argument.

Where in your entire essay are there any practical, step-by-step plans to realize your intellectual idealism (BE SPECIFIC) - that anyone can take seriously as practical plans of action that makes sense in context of the *actual* world we live in, that takes into account human nature that *actually exists currently*?

ie. "Where's the beef?"

Do you think that once this current order collapses in on itself, the people that caused the problems are just going to fade away and leave it as is .. and that a glorious, stateless society will just appear and "take care of itself"?

If you cant begin to answer these questions - OR you deny tne necessity of it - than you completely missed the point of what he so eloquently just said.

Here's the beef

It is called justice for criminals. We have three branches of "government". The proper venue for bringing remedy for criminal activity. For some unknown reason many in the Liberty movement keep playing politics when the issue is crime. Politics is not going to bring justice to criminals. We already know that Article 1 Section 10 states the no state shall make anything but gold and silver coin in the payment of debt. This means that every single State bureaucrat is in Breach of Duty to their contractual obligations by utilizing an unlawful tender in the payment of debts.

How long is going to take We the People to figure out that the obvious choice between:

A. Play politics and try to convince 10s of millions of People that they should agree with us and vote in a rigged system that has no guarantee of being valid

OR

B. We the People bring criminal accusations against those falsely claiming to be "government" and put them in front of local juries one by one.

Option A requires vast time and resources to convince 10s of millions of mindless zombies what we think it is right in 10 second sound bites

Option B Requires convincing 12 people listening intently to every exposure of the fraud and tyranny being committed.

We talk about the constitution and the rule of law. We pay for a vast criminal justice system. For some reason we choose the hardest path that is not even the correct venue to remedy the situation. For some reason most just blink out when it comes to the real deal of bringing justice to criminals. We have Juries. We have a contract that is actively in breach. We have equal justice under the law. Are we going to use it or not?

This is becoming mind boggling insane to see the Ron Paul people devolve into this. Even Ron Paul himself said he doesn't have much faith in politics. There was so much energy put into the campaigns. Can you imagine what effect that much organization and large numbers would have if we put our efforts into bringing justice to the criminals one by one through Juries? The entire "Court" would be turned upside down in 5 minutes. We would be able to expose the criminal DAs, State Attorneys, Judges and more in this process. For some reason Americans now believe that Equal Justice under the Law means that only the DA/State Attorney has the power to make criminal accusations. This is insane! Criminals to bring to criminals to Justice? Equal Justice under the Law means that each of us has access to remedies in Law and this does not require an attorney it requires one to understand how the Common Law and the Constitution actually work.

The thing I have learned from actually seeking criminal charges against the criminal crats (who give me a valid cause of action against them through their fraudulent color of law actions and acts of extortion amongst others) is that when one seeks access to the Jury the criminals claiming to be "government" literally block my access to a Grand Jury and say I have to go through them. I have realized that this is a HUGE advantage for us. Every criminal bureaucrat that blocks access to Jury is committing obstruction of Justice; a felony. I use their little slave maze game of sending me around in circles of different departments to gather more criminal evidence of Misprision, Fraud, Extortion, Breach of Duty and more. This the advantage of what they think is their solution to get rid of me; I collect dossiers on the individuals and build criminal case files that will be utilized when the people finally wake up and actually utilize the correct tools for the job at hand; Justice for Criminals.

One tactic I use that is so effective is that I take exact quotes from code and the Constitution for the crimes I have identified they are committing and I form questions for them where I ask them if they are committing the crime such as when I get pulled over in their little extortion game I ask them when they tell me I have to sign the contract:

So let me get this straight I now have an armed who has interefered with my path of travel is now using threats, fear and intimidation to force me into contract; is this correct?

They say yes nearly everytime. They admit to their own crime on the record! I have hundreds of questions like this. They are so compartmentalized and such stupid tyrannical barbarians that they don't even realize that they are admitting that they are performing the exact code definition of extortion or others. If they are that stupid and criminally corrupt and we don't seek justice and remedy from the proper venue, what does this say about the liberty movement who, supposedly, wants to restore the Constitution. We deserve exactly the tyranny we are receiving if we are going to be this stupid.

People here need snap out of the brainwashing and realize that the courts are their for us. It is our service that we pay for. If we had the numbers of the Ron Paul campaign focused on actually pursuing criminal accusations in mass and getting the fraud before Juries they would be DONE!!!!

If we realized that the proper lawful function of a REAL well regulated Militia is not to play hide n go seek in the woods and stomp around in cammo but is actually to be the final line of strength that ensures that Juries are by and for the people and that all obstructions to access of juries must be removed to ensure that disputes can be settled through non-violent means of our juries. The numbers the liberty movement grew to around Ron Paul IS the Militia we just need to get well regulated in Law and then mow the lawn of institutionalized crime across the entire nation. If we are only trying to seek Juries for the very purpose and intent of avoiding ALL violence then we can utilize the moral high ground and the letter of the Common Law to bring remedy in a matter of a very short time. If the crats see the numbers of the liberty movement doing this on a focused and well organized scale the good law abiding crats would come with us. I have already seen this unfold before my very eyes and it is only me doing this by myself at this point. Once they realize that we are the last hope to bring about common sense they WILL come with us but we must know the law, if we don't then we have no way of exposing the crimes they are committing.

Where are the REAL MEN AND WOMEN out there? It is time to bring justice to criminals.

The most powerful Law of Nature is Time. It is finite and we all will run out of it. Use this Law to your advantage, for it offers you infinite possibilities...

Good post

They *are* criminals that need to be brought to justice.

This is an important point that gets obscured in all the philosophizing, theorycrafting, and focus on "political action"

Charges do need to be brought and thousands of people should be dragged into court.

that is some what the assumption..

..that society will take care of itself. We are already heading in that direction. While individual societies tend toward totalitarianism, human progress tends toward liberty. You can see it after the fall of Rome, through the middle ages into the renaissance, the creation of the Magna Carta and then the founding of the United States.

Today, those of us that continue to study the philosophies of liberty have a much better understanding of it than our founders did, just as they had a better understanding than the Romans did. We have an economic system, we understand exactly where the establishment is going to encroach on the limits we set upon them and we have, in general, added to the defense of liberty. The state is destroying itself and the only thing that we can do is to educate the public and enact change as opportunities present themselves.

The people that caused the problems are the same people that believed that they had the devine right to rule over the peasants a couple of centuries ago. They are not going anywhere. Our perpetual task is to keep them away from authority over currency, civil liberies and military powers.

I am not just bad mouthing any plan and advising everyone to sit idly by and let nature take care of it. It is our drive to educate ourselves and those around us that will bring change to society. But to say that we should create our own establishment because without the presence of massive state sponsorship of poverty we will all suffer, is a position that I cannot endorse.

Many libertarian scholars have proposed ways to ease out of the welfare state. That is most obviously not going to happen. So we will have to watch it collapse and make a stand. Our only choice is to educate as many people as we can.

what answer would you have received

had you posed that same question to someone like Gandhi when he first started rallying against the oppression in Africa or India ?

Or how about some of the participants of the French revolution... do you think they would have been able to provide a "step by step" formula to reinstate social justice ?

These are just two scenarios off the top of my head but seriously... your argument and that of this thread article, suggests that if you lack a "step by step" plan to change a system then you shouldn't voice your thoughts about it ! That is seriously limited IMO.

Freedom is a byproduct of acceptance - judge not.

libertarian entrepreneurship is the way to solve your concerns

ALWAYS speak out against war and the Pentagon

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56crkV34M2k&feature=player_de...

Others are correct in stating the fact governments crowd out charity. If the state was smashed tomorrow sure those dependent on it would be in trouble, but necessity is the mother of all invention.

You must break this corrupt

You must break this corrupt government to free the currency and the capital to build up again what it has been being destroyed for 100 plus years.

Yes, because of our lack of vigilance we must expect that there will be hardship and massive adjustment to come to right our track back to liberty. You cannot justify the evil here by saying "well we are all so dependent now that we must build a new structure for the dependent" That will now take a very long time to rebuild in our hearts heads and souls that which has been broken and erased from the direct knowledge of so many living today. I believe many will die from this ignorance and many more will die from the violence of that strife.

Get prepared for a possibly monumental change in your life is all I can say. It is coming one way or the other. I only hope the adjustment comes sooner than later and as politically peacefully as possible and is not delayed by a period of authoritarianism.

“Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian.” ― Henry Ford.

this guy is trying

https://sites.google.com/site/gilguillory/

“With laws shall our land be built up, but with lawlessness laid waste.”
-Njal Thorgeirsson

That is not only a

That is not only a much-needed and lucid thought, but nearly poetic writing.

Andrew Napolitano for President 2016!
http://andrewnapolitano.com/index

"Patriotism should come from loving thy neighbor, not from worshiping Graven images." - ironman77

beautifully written, but...

I think you missed the point on most of it.

You seem to have forgotten what bastiat called the 'unseen'. When analyzing things you must look at both the seen and the unseen.

It's not libertarians, or liberties fault that there isn't more free market "social securities". The seen is the governments hogging all these resources, so you cannot rationally blame liberty when over half of their resources are being stolen.

People, rationally take care of their own (and basic) needs first. When a leviathan state destroys half their wealth that isn't the fault of them that society suffers.

*

Secondly this whole, "we need to beat them at their own game" is silly. They got into power by deceit. Being more deceptive isn't going to work, in fact you lose the second you try. The only way to defeat deceit is Truth. You can only beat darkness with light, not being darker.

*

Now, I completely agree that a collapse won't automatically bring about any "truth". TPTB think and are planning on maintaining (and gaining) power through the collapse (and probably will).

However, a collapse will cause pain, and create a huge opportunity as people look for "why" their is pain. Providing them with the 'social securities' is like giving them fish. Telling them the truth is like teaching them to fish, because the truth is the only thing that can set you free.

Rothbrd would not approve.

This is old trod ground.

And ffs way TLDR, tho I did. But I'm a masochist this evening apparently.

It's way simpler than all this. The tactics and strategy are there, laid out in the first chapter of Strictly Confidential which is free for the clicking.

The answer is not compromise of principles. Tactical alliances yes. Compromise no. The reasons for no philosophical compromise are laid out but the jist is they are the seeds of failure.

Example: Support any lower taxes. But never say that 5% is ok. Say that 5% is a good start and work with those wanting to lower it. Never lie however and say taxes aren't theft and that 5% taxation is somehow magically not theft but 20% or 50% is.

Anyone who read this post.. just read Rothbard's take. It's clearer.

To say something is old trod

To say something is old trod ground would imply some record of success. I admire Rothbard's work, but he isn't infallible. Maybe you should branch out a bit beyond Rothbard's ideological playpen.

Where Rothbard is wrong I'm

Where Rothbard is wrong I'm happy to point it out. His analysis of tactics and strategy is not one of those areas. How do we know? Because it's the same that the bad guys have used so successfully.

You espouse strategic compromise. That must fail. The only reason to compromise strategically is if you don't believe in the strategic goal. Which I know you do not. So I don't want anyone who shares my goal to be tricked by this.

Tactical compromise is fine.

I'm willing to share the liberty train with anyone who wants to move in the anti-statist, individualist direction. When we get as far as you want to go and you want to get off, fine. You know my philosophy. I will not try to force you to stay on.

But I'm never going to capitulate the moral case. Nor should anyone.

The state is immoral.

A 5% tax may be a quarter as immoral as a 20% tax, but it's still immoral.

Because some immoral people made some other people dependent on perpetuating immorality is not my sin, nor should you think it is yours. Hopefully one day you will conclude that.

An Andrew Jackson quote is appropriate here and should be generalized to all prior statist evil that is used to perpetuate the state.

Gentlemen! I too have been a close observer of the doings of the Bank of the United States. I have had men watching you for a long time, and am convinced that you have used the funds of the bank to speculate in the breadstuffs of the country. When you won, you divided the profits amongst you, and when you lost, you charged it to the bank. You tell me that if I take the deposits from the bank and annul its charter I shall ruin ten thousand families. That may be true, gentlemen, but that is your sin! Should I let you go on, you will ruin fifty thousand families, and that would be my sin! You are a den of vipers and thieves. I have determined to rout you out, and by the Eternal, I will rout you out!

Very well written

And I would like to add to this that without understanding the true human nature, which is sinful, we cannot truly understand any problem we face at all.

And when the collapse come, the greatest evil regime will rise, that is the government of the Anti-Christ. But people will welcome it and embrace it, they will be deceived and they will be totally controlled.

And there's no other way out except through Christ. He's the only Way, the only Truth and the only Life.

Thank you for your post.

Thank you for your post.

You're welcome.

You're welcome.

Criminals are extorting our resources

If one third to one half (or more) of our resources are being extorted from us by a gang of criminal barbarians then how are honest hardworking people going to have the resources to give to who we wish. If the value of the resources is evaporating from inflation of an unlawful tender then how are the poor ever going to just maintain survival.

We need to remove the barbarians who eat out our substance so that our labor is not evaporating into paying for crime that ends up taking more time to battle this in the political arena. We need to drop the political insanity and bring criminals to justice.

The people that continue to focus on politics instead of bringing criminals to justice are ridiculous. No progress because the system is rigged. If something is unlawful criminal activity then the justice system is the proper venue for bringing remedy. How long is it going to take for political bobble heads out there to figure this out. Politics is insanity people. The Constitution was never meant to operate like the current political paradigm we see today.

The most powerful Law of Nature is Time. It is finite and we all will run out of it. Use this Law to your advantage, for it offers you infinite possibilities...

metalhed19's picture

Solid post Bill3.....

Solid post Bill3.....

*Wisconsin Constitution* Article I, Section 25 "The people have the right to keep and bear arms for security,defense,hunting,recreation or any other law-abiding purpose"

Thanks, brother.

Thanks, brother.

Da Truth Hurts -- Keepin it REAL

bill3-4-prez 2016

Newt for VP. or, attorney

Newt for VP. or, attorney general?

AG

Prefer AG so long as it is clear banks, corporations, and politicians are off limits. I would prefer to load my docket with cases that would provide meaningful and substantial change -- like aggressive prosecutions of kids downloading music illegally online.

hahahaha.

hahahaha.

I have seen

many postings on this site that refer to people who are doing the work. I must say that second to a good grounding in libertarian philosophy I would choose, How to grow and preserve food, how to protect against calamity by defense and preparedness. How to get involved in local politics, how to be an activist. How to create and manage energy from alternative sources. How to invest, how to use bitcoin and other alternatives. How to educate at home.How to take take of health and medicine at home. How to make biochar ( bamboo is my favorite ). How to start a fire. How to compost human, animal and vegetable waste. How to eat healthy. Learn all these things and so much more, just following links found here. But it is much more effective to follow through and learn and do these things, perhaps not all of them... but many. Then share what you know with others.

It's hard work, to learn and do and share. But it will be harder if those around you lack these skills.

They will turn to anyone who promises help, help them help themselves and they will not look so quickly for a strongman government, but instead we will take time and discuss and haggle while we put out the fires.

What good is Freedom of the press, if the Press will not Press For Freedom? - UR

http://PressforFreedom.com

Ask not what your government can do for the people, ask what can the people do for the people. - UR

Thanks for the reality check.

"When the present deranged elite is done destroying the entire fabric of society, and a collapse does come, whether hastened by its opponents or not, the result will not be a flowering of Liberty, the holding of hands and the echo of a thousand voices raised in the praise of individual Liberty and non aggression.

No. Rather, a new, worse tyranny will arise, borne not of evil but of necessity, to restore basic order and security for hungry, disillusioned millions, morally and socially bankrupt, and turning to whatever primitive bonds of group cohesion that promise to allow at least survival and basic security, liberty be damned."

I couldn't have said it better myself, and it's a very simple reality to understand. The only conclusion I can come to is those who advocate collapse while tearing at the fabric of society knowingly serve what I oppose. People will flock to anybody offering them what they need and covet, liberty be damned.