12 votes

How many here believe I am truly a murderer

due to my serving honorably in the military? A member, "DDucks" has stated quite unequivocally that he considers me as such. The following was a diatribe, or perhaps it should be called a monologue, they engaged in on a post that seemed to be baiting individuals such as I.
Submitted by dducks on Tue, 04/09/2013 - 10:34. Permalink
Some false assumption you make: 1) You know what culture I was born in or that I adhere to. 2) That I respect any a fraction of the laws 38,000,000 laws we are forced to abide by. 3) That you know my age. 4) That I respect the military, or slums. 5) That I think this Country or its subjects are inherently great.
DDucks goes on to state…So since you lived in the slums and signed up to be a murderer for the collective you are more exceptional or have better arguments on immigration in a libertarian forum? Just to let you know, a true libertarian generally believes that all people should be able to do as they please without infringing on the life, liberty, or property of others.
If this is what members believe individuals such as I truly are then I'll just mosey off and find others who are a bit more receptive to my ideals and who don't have a bankrupt mentality as was demonstrated today. As bad as things are in this nation I'm not about to throw in the towel yet and yes I still believe this nation and it's citizens are inherently great. Check out the OP as well.
http://www.dailypaul.com/281025/seems-like-many-here-are-spl...

Edit.... This site is now approaching a critical mass where self destruction is imminent. To all you self righteous A holes who assumed I served in the Gulf or Afghanistan, I served in the 1970's and refused to join until Nixon was out of office. I served as a Nuclear Propulsion Engineer on, what is colloquially referred to as, a Boomer. Go under for six months and hope the world is still there when you surface. Ply your agendas here all you wish, I no longer have any sense of comradarie or trust with the type of individuals who have demonstrated their mentalities below. Nystrom, this place is in dire need of an enema. It is my most sincere hope that these clowns open their mouths and call the wrong one of us a murderer, but we know that that hope will never come true. God bless the keyboard for the inept.

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thank you--

the really evil ones are those who support the war and encourage the war and don't participate in the dirty work--

when I read experiences like yours I just pray that the warmongers whose sons and daughters never went overseas . . .

will be called to account--

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

Thank you for your perspective

Things are clearly not as black and white as an intellectual argument attempts to boil the world down to. For what its worth, there is a difference between killing and murdering. Although you or others you know may have or may not have taken innocent life, I don't think you should bear the emotional weight of murder.

On PTSD, I tend to agree. We talk about stress as a disorder, when clearly it is a natural response to a traumatic event. Humans need to make sense of their experiences, not suppress them with lofty notions and praise.

Your voice is essential and needs to be heard, not just because of your experience but because of the thoughtful reasoning behind your words.

I hope you find peace of mind brother.

Bad apples, Posers, phony libertarians, and RON PAUL...

This is a forum for free thinking and ideas.

If an idea or statement provokes you to respond, please focus on that idea and why you think it is wrong. Its not only a waste of time to address the quality of the individual who made the remark, it hurts all of our intellectual development!

If you disagree with someone and you label a fake libertarian then you are simply a conformist, demanding that others fall in line with your collective and dogma.

(BTW - Ron Paul is not my Messiah and he should not be yours. He is a man we all respect and nothing more. Please do not try to make him into a religious figure, as I believe this is something even he would be opposed to).

An idea is either in line with a school of thought or it is not, demonstrate why or why not using reason.

To say that an act is immoral or could be considered murder is not a personal attack. It may sound that way to you if it hits close to home, but it is simply an intellection assertion and should be treated as such.

ON THE OTHER HAND: Let He who is without sin cast the first stone.

Maybe we should all exercise a bit of restraint and be as respectful as possible when asserting the immorality of falling in line with the system.

Think of all the harm any simple action any of could have done before we were awoken. I argued like a good Neo-Con for war with Iraq and attempted to set anyone straight who disagreed with me. In my own little way I supported and push for the murders of hundreds of thousands of innocents.

The only thing that matters is that you turn the ship around once you've seen the light. We are all the children and product of rape, murder, and cruelty, just as we are all descendants of the victims.

I apologize Chessienut!

The last thing I want to do is discourage liberty lovers. Especially dog loving liberty lovers. And especially Chesapeake lovers. I miss my dear Petey, may he RIP. And I am sorry for your loss Chessienut, may she RIP.

That said, I actually did not call you a murderer. I said "you signed up to be a murderer for the collective". And I believe in my heart that is what all military service is now. The US military has only fought wars of aggression for pretty much...ever. With today's access to the Internet there is really no excuse. But back in the day, who knew?

I am basically a pacifist and was forced to quit a great job when I discovered my employer had previously completed a 'defense' contract (munitions bunker). Also, I live far beneath my abilities for the sole reason that I feel implicated in the overseas murdering by paying taxes. I am very emotional about the wars (I study military history to try to understand this mysterious institution) and when you brought your military background into a debate about the character of Mexicans, (my adopted family and most of my friend, btw. Yes, mostly 'illegal') I lost it.

First, how do we define what participants in today's wars really are, notwithstanding the aggressive nature of our foreign policy? We all agree that the people doing the actual killing, those handling provision, mobilizing, logistics, and lower management are carrying out the orders of the most guilty party. So in that way there are many who excuse these individuals. So, on the other side of the war, nearly every single fighter is in the same category - They are pawns. So if we try to excuse the low level culprits on our side we have to excuse these same level culprits on the other side. So even the opposition fighters could be classified as innocent. That makes the culprits on our side even more culpable. The point is, anyone who will be killed in today's wars are either brainwashed pawns or civilians. So anyone killing or assisting the killing are morally implicated in the murder of the innocent. This POS institution these days is always about power structures gaining more power and money. The sooner we accept it and disseminate it, the sooner we can stop it.

With that said, I really think that if everyone felt like I do and spoke up than all those poor brainwashed young men and women would not sign up because it is heroic, a public service, good, honorable, a way out of town, a good way to travel, education, or a job. If everyone started calling it what it is: collective murder, than human ostracism ALONE could stop this most vile of human institutions. If veterans could suck it up, put pack their pride, and just go along with the premise that all of today's wars are immoral (even if they were real heros during their service), than we could possibly start teaching the youth the reality of it. 'Supporting the Troops' is the most egregious campaigns ever devised. It makes it politically incorrect to call murder 'murder', and instead mandatory that we call murder 'honorable and heroic'.

☮☮☮ PeaCe CHeSSieNuT ☮☮☮

Not me!

You were an engineer in a sub...you weren't going door-to-door in the dead of night shooting at frightened civilians in the dark. You felt compelled to serve and you did...or, you were drafted and you served...either way, your heart was in it for the right reasons and you done good until years later when you finally figured out the scam that is our foreign policies. There should be no shame in your service. Please don't allow the few detractors here on DP inside your head...besides, even if you were the person to push "the button" on the sub and be somewhat responsible for deaths (someone else made the decision to fire), that was years ago...in the past. As the intro to 'Zeitgeist' states, now is now.

------------------
BC
Silence isn't always golden....sometimes it's yellow.

"The liberties of a people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." - Patrick Henry

Wow ! Chessie?? ....

...Is that REALLY YOU?
Snap out of it man!....I know your state is going through some hard times.
Perhaps it's affecting you, so.....remember this:
RON PAUL......
Served in the military.
Saw his share of hard times too.
Is NOT, was NOT, and NEVER shall be considered a "murderer".
Has NEVER been a "People-Pleaser" or one who acts in the interest of
what will "look good" to others.....he is his own man, TOTALLY!
So......
BE your "own man", and screw the critics.
To be "inner-directed" with a true sense of purpose, and morality is
the benchmark of that concept.
This site has its share of "PLASTIC LIBERTARIANS"...or "Posers".
And although you & I have not agreed, personally, on everything?...Your heart has always been in the right place.
GOOGLE THIS:
"IF" by Rudyard Kipling
http://www.dailypaul.com/comment/2475061
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGtdZYNA4tc
http://www.dailypaul.com/234371/ifyou-think-you-are-beaten-y...
So... Hang in there man.
Sincerely, Danton

"Beyond the blackened skyline, beyond the smoky rain, dreams never turned to ashes up until.........
...Everything CHANGED !!

Did you kill anyone?

If so, you are a murderer. If they were attempting to kill you, it could be considered "self defense." Did they come to your home and attack you, or did you go to their home armed? If you went to their home, then they were the ones who were "defending."
I am sorry that we were all lied to, and I am sorry that so many fine men and women were lead to become cheerleaders for war. It is time to grow past those lies.
I was a drug dealer - perfectly legal, mind you. Not even a big time player, just the smiling face that took your blood pressure and such before you got to see the man who wrote you the Rx. It is hard for me to accept how much harm I did in my effort to heal, but only by accepting it can I STOP being a useful idiot for a broken medical-industrial complex.
You need to deal with the facts of what you did and why you did it. It does not mean you are an evil person, but if you killed someone on distant shores, you did murder them. If you were drafted, the situation is even more heinous; the draft is "attempted murder" by the warmongers with the only hope for clemency being to go abroad and murder someone else for them.
And if you never killed anyone, of course you are no more a murderer than I am - I help fund these endless wars, too cowardly to not pay my taxes in protest. All of us have blood on our hands, but that does not mean we are evil. Some murder for profit, for sport, for entertainment. I have no doubt that you are NOT one of them.

Love or fear? Chose again with every breath.

Of course we justify it as

Of course we justify it as self defense. It's really the only way I live with the guilt of what I've done in Afghanistan. But it doesn't make it any easier knowing that I've taken a life. Who were they? Why were they shooting at me? Had we killed his family? Did he not have anything left but vengeance left to live for? Many questions that we'll never know in this life, or the next.

But I have taken a life, and it's something I'll have to live with for the rest of my life. I know I'm not alone, I know many feel as I feel. Some more so than other. Some with little or no regret. There were moments where I'd see joy in the eyes of my brothers because they seemed to enjoy killing... I fear for the future of our country in that regards....

---------------------------------
Finally HOME! For Good!
---------------------------------
I am an Oath Keeper
I am an Agnostic
I am a father and I want my children to know true freedom in their lifetime.

I wrote this earlier today, a reply to another post

bit it applies here and now, too. Forgive me for repeating myself:
"I first heard "Universal Soldier" when I was very young, young enough to just understand it, and I have opposed war ever since. Even "just" war... if The People were in power, they would work it out without the war. War makes GOVERNMENTS rich and THE PEOPLE poor. It was Viet Nam, the soldiers were being drafted, and when they came home they got spit on for going.... I hated that as much as the war. Kids think the darndest things....
9-11 brought new "honor and glory" to soldiers. It was not easy to be a peace advocate for a long time... I totally understand how so many fine young men and women get lured into "serving their country" and I understand the benefit of believing that what they are doing is brave and honorable. It applies to all professions. Why did I do clinical research for Pharma? I believed I was doing good work. As long as I believed that, I had a good career, lots of money, respect in my field... When a soldier looks in the mirror and asks himself "Am I doing the right thing?" THAT is the moment he shows real courage. When he overcomes ALL the conditioning to "just follow orders" and is willing to give up all those perks of being a "good soldier" to do the right thing.... That is a very special class of people. You tell your husband that I love him, OK?
Peace, my friend."

Love or fear? Chose again with every breath.

Props ...

...for cheap stunts and costly consequences.

http://www.politicususa.com/sarah-palin-uses-pat-tillman.html

homie

i read your post earlier today. type, delete, type, delete. you know how it goes. it popped up again just now. and for the sake of maintaining a fragile buzz, i'm not re-reading everything.

my only comment is this: don't leave. this little online forum has had an enormous impact on me. there's a ton of VERY intelligent people here. don't let a few bad apples spoil it for you.

i make comments i sometimes regret. many times i've had my mind changed by people who have no idea and got no credit. my entire outlook on the world has turned a 180 and this place, these people, had a lot to do with it.

and it ain't immune to a little verbal abuse, either. take it with a grain of salt. you're gonna find some people you might actually hate. there's a 'block user' button for people like that.

so i'm not going to call you a murderer. not gonna call you innocent either. arguably, no one is. if you joined the military.. without question, you had this conversation with yourself. only you know your experiences, it doesn't take a scholarly debate to come to a conclusion.

best of luck,
peace.

i'm sorry i haven't read your

i'm sorry i haven't read your post. you will be needed though when they come for us.

sadly, yes, you were ordered to kill without just cause. i'm sorry.

that's what happens when you're brainwashed the way we are.

smoke pot, hash, opium... etc... good drugs. mushrooms. peyote. happy drugs.

don't take pharmaceutical drugs. go to an Indian church in the desert southwest and take peyote in their native american church. become a member just for the peyote. And you know God and the Great Spirit don't have much difference in theology. Just try to find harmony with God again, like when you were a kid.

lawrence

"don't take pharmaceutical drugs"

Then why did you list opium?

If you don't know your rights, you don't have any.

because i could make a 1/16

because i could make a 1/16 inch incision around the bulb, of Papaver Somniferum, myself.

lawrence

Lol, yes, but

opium is bad for you. Would you agree?

If you don't know your rights, you don't have any.

opium is not bad for you,

opium is not bad for you, just don't get addicted to it, is that so hard?

lawrence

It is addictive....

and addiction is a form of slavery.

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself.
Friedrich Nietzsche

you need to edit this post

I can't tell who said what, because it all runs together. Please add some quotation marks and paragraph breaks.

“Although it was the middle of winter, I finally realized that, within me, summer was inextinguishable.” — Albert Camus

haha THANK YOU

i thought it was just me.

I'm just happy

that you are here, and that you get it. (the idea of freedom, that is).

I do believe that war is evil but I don't believe soldiers are murderers when they believe in their hearts that the horror of war must be done to protect their country.

My grandfather was a veteran of WW2. He killed people. Do I think of him as a murderer? Hell no. Do I respect him for his courage? Absolutely.

It's a touchy subject. That and police officers. They aren't all bad but judging by the comments on here, every single one of them is out to get you and signed up for that horrible job just to abuse people and get off on power.

Anyway, giving your life (or risking it) so that others may live is the most honorable thing a person can do in this world. I blame governments for starting war for profit, not individuals in the military.

Peace be with you:)

The world is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
-Thomas Paine

If I recall...

...correctly from the campaign, Dr. Paul was pretty keen on submarines as a key part of a strong national defense, with foreign policy realigned away from interventionism, of course. (I bemoaned the fact that we needed to hear more such details at the time rather than fewer like some of his advisers seemed to think were warranted, but that's a rabbit trail.) Your contribution to the nation's readiness to defend itself is/was admirable, but you don't need some soft civilian like me to tell you that.

If the Administration at the time of your service (let's see, that would be Ford, Carter, etc.?), abused you through their foreign policy stances, I would blame them first, and the People for not holding their feet to the fire to exercise prudence and wisdom in this area, assuming the People had opportunity to know about it at the time. How can any of us say, really, what we think about your involvement in particular when we don't know the details of what you were involved in? There does come a point where one would need to draw the line between following orders and upholding the Constitution or a higher morality, so if your conscience is at ease that you followed these higher laws, then great!

What I don't understand is why you seem to be broadly dissing the Daily Paul, when most of the folks below are being deferential and non-judgemental and only speaking in hypotheticals and generalities as they think out loud about the morality of war and how it might or might not apply to your situation. Everyone here is sometimes challenged by others with blunt opinions that feel like a slap in the face. Rather than it causing resentment or giving up and leaving, why not just embrace it as an opportunity to be the iron sharpening iron in the Liberty movement, educating others on your perspective, or being able to receive sharpening and correction yourself if needed?

For the Christians out there

Jews too I guess
Whats the first commandment?
Do not worship the state or any of its employees .

There is another one about not killing. There are no exceptions to it. It doesn't say anything about killing is OK because when you wear a government issued costume.

Since the State cannot be higher authority than god and those institutions are not to be worshiped...a spade is a spade.

This Gentleman doesn't sound like a killer to me though. Sitting in a giant sewer pipe under the ocean for months at a time doesn't even really violate the non-aggression principle either. However If he killed anyone...he would in fact be a murderer by just about any definition. Unless of course he served in WWII some people could argue that war was lawful.

Or UNLESS...

He was in 'Nam fighting for his life during the Tet Offensive?

....or in Korea...fighting for his life?

....or in a ghetto?

Haha! How about the Civil War?

"Kill or Be Killed".....and I'm afraid we will all be there soon enough.

"Beyond the blackened skyline, beyond the smoky rain, dreams never turned to ashes up until.........
...Everything CHANGED !!

How many Roman soldiers did Good Old Jesus Kill?

Kill or be Killed...Forgot that one

Where in the bible is that?

Nam was not a lawful war any christian should have asked to be a Conscientious objector http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscientious_objector

Or taken a trip to Canada

Civil war was lawful for the South, not the north.

Ghetto? That war isn't familiar to me so not sure how it relates to soldiers being called murders, but in General if you are defending your self and you kill you are not a murderer.

The truth is if you break into my house and try to kill some one here I will raise my shot gun on you. If I kill you I am defending, if you kill me you are a murderer. The same applies to wars & the ghetto. who invades vs who defends determines the murderers from the defenders.

Taxes?

" Unless of course he served in WWII some people could argue that war was lawful."

Making exceptions like that are the same as saying that taxation is not really theft because some people could argue that it constitutes a public necessity and good. Am I misguided in making that comparison?

What about the "some people" who could argue that World War 2 was the furthest thing from lawful? What if some people had to deal with the human carnage that did or did not return from said mass generation wide war? War is the health of the state. Before World War 2, we had one active infantry division (Big Red 1) protecting the whole country and one cavalry division (1st Cav), which still had horses, protecting the whole West and Southwest of the country. After World War 2, we got the never ending, ever growing security state. World War 2 did a whole lot to feed the state and kill freedom.

And yes, the Nazis were horrible and needed to be defeated. Same with the empire of Japan. Americans had the option of joining the Canadian military, which many did prior to Pearl Harbor, just as they had volunteered to fight for Republican Spain years earlier in the Lincoln Brigades. Drafting and industrially mobilizing an entire generation of people against their will to fight in a war that was really not our right, despite the righteousness of it, has had a huge negative and transformational effect on our culture. Just look where it led us. This is not the country my ancestors came to. Hindsight is 20/20 and I admit to that.

The Nazis STILL need defeated.

Time for you to learn some history - look into the Bush family, Mr. Dulles of "Dulles Airport" honors, and "Project Paperclip." The Nazi's didn't lose, they just changed tactics.

Love or fear? Chose again with every breath.

wow...I trolled, but got the wrong fish

If you read the two last sentences in conjunction and not just take the very last one out of context...I think you clearly see how I personally feel about the issue.

There hasn't been anything close to a lawful war since WWII (in the US).

Murder is the unlawful Killing of someone. The bible doesn't rally make that distinction.

There shouldn't be anyone on here that is pro-war or worship soldiers. Trigger pullers for the corporate empire need to come to grips with how bad they were duped, repent, and denounce the whole mess from recruit to the joint chiefs.

Try this fish?

Doctor Paul REQUESTED Aimee Allen sing this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9x9pb6U7zAU

He served, he gets it. Self governance is where ALL responsibility ultimately originates, and there are no rights that come without inherent responsibility.

Love or fear? Chose again with every breath.

Why don't you actually crack

Why don't you actually crack open the Bible to check whether your opinions about it are accurate?

You'll find out if "The bible doesn't rally (sic) make that distinction", when you actually do a little reading of the book.

What did Jesus say to the soldiers that he encountered? The Centurion? Pontius Pilate and the soldiers at the cross?

Did he condemn them for being murderers simply for being soldiers? Did he say anything to imply that his followers can't be in that profession?

He said to the Centurion (an Imperial Roman commander of many soldiers) nothing about being a murderer, but treated him individually according to his faith, just like any person.

Jesus told Pontius Pilate that "you would have no power unless it was given you from higher up. Therefore, he who handed me over to you has the greater sin". Jesus forgave the very soldiers who were crucifying him, praying "Father forgive them, they know not what they do".

Elsewhere in the New Testament there were Centurions and soldiers mentioned but the closest thing you can find to accusing them of murder is when John the Baptist told them not to terrorize anyone, give up threatening and be content with their wages. Nothing about quitting their jobs or being murderers.

This thread reminds me of the whole fuss over Ron Paul's tweet a while back, about the army sniper who was killed. Ron tweeted: "he who lives by the sword dies by the sword". Some on this website were trying to claim that Paul meant that the soldier was a murderer. Perhaps this thread here is just a consequence of that nonsense, a veteran who was called a murderer by quislings who claim to be logical and moral but can't find their own head with both hands.

And this phathead thinks that people who were "duped" need to "repent and denounce the whole mess".

If someone is duped, how would they repent of it? Would they pray, "God, I repent for being tricked, the killing I did is my fault because I was 'duped' into doing it, please forgive me for being 'duped'."

Why don't you start thinking instead of just rattling off nonsense?

wow what is it with people cherry picking?

I said they need to come to grips with the fact they were duped,(notice the comma) Repent (meaning ask for forgiveness for whatever sins they have committed). *english martha ducker can u read It? Its a list of things to do like; "Honey could you wash the car, cut the grass, and weed the garden?" See not related. Unless you are so dense you would actual think someone asked you to wash the car with the lawn mower or maybe the grass? Doubt it.

Nothing to do with what ever rant you had going to build a straw man.

So you looked through the bible and can't find anywhere that calls a soldier a murderer? Good for you!

I said the ten commandments says THOU SHALL NOT KILL. Then in the post where I was responding to someone else I used the bible for shorthand b/c in context I thought it would make sense.That was a terrible thought sorry, I should have realized.

I like your examples you are trying to use to say Jesus was prowar/ pro soldier! Forgive them they know not what they do. Perfect! That's the prayer any trigger puller for the corporate empire should have said for them.

So are you suggesting I got my whole Christian faith backwards and of instead of trying to emulate Jesus and walk in his footsteps we should encourage more soldiers to kill more people in gruesome ways and just pray for them so they can be forgiven for they know not what they do?

Again just to reiterate If you are a soldier and you haven't killed anyone you are not a murderer. But if you don't understand that Jesus was the prince of peace and that we should emulate Jesus, not the soldiers that MURDERED him...maybe I am asking too much even from this site.

Sigh.