22 votes

Update: Does anyone see concerns with this chart?

Now imagine "leverage!"
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-04-10/bitcoin-parabola-no...

http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user3303...

Update: The platform will allow leverage (via margin) and the ability to short the market. We can only imagine the hour-by-hour margin changes. Furthermore, Coinsetter intends to offer accredited investors (because wealth equals smarts, right) the ability to earn interest on Bitcoins.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-04-10/bitcoin-parabola-no...



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RUDE AWAKENING!!!

From Mt Gox:

Hi everyone, just a quick update on the situation and what happened last night.

First of all we would like to reassure you but no we were not last night victim of a DDoS but instead victim of our own success!

Indeed the rather astonishing amount of new account opened in the last few days added to the existing one plus the number of trade made a huge impact on the overall system that started to lag. As expected in such situation people started to panic, started to sell Bitcoin in mass (Panic Sale) resulting in an increase of trade that ultimately froze the trade engine!

To give you an idea of how impressive things were here are some numbers that we would love to share with you guys:
- The number of trades executed triple in the last 24hrs.
- The number of new account opened went from 60k for March alone to 75k new account created for the first few days of April! We now have roughly 20,000 new accounts created each day.

Due to these facts we have been busy working on improving things since last week and our team has been working around the clock to improve Mt.Gox to catch up with the demand. We will continue to release several updates today and in the coming few days to improve our system overall performance.

Also please note that we may have to close the exchange for two hours in the next 12 to 24hrs to add several new servers to our system.

Thank you for your understanding and continuous support!

https://www.facebook.com/MtGox

"We’ve moved beyond the Mises textbook. We’re running in the open market." - Erik Voorhees

What happened today was due

What happened today was due to normal trading volume.

We shook all of the weaklings off!!!

Wealth got transferred to more intelligent hands!!!

This was only a bear trap.

(eat your heart out haters!)

...And...

I Bought bit coins at today's LOW!!!

--> 105$$$

(get off ma nuts-haters!!)

"We’ve moved beyond the Mises textbook. We’re running in the open market." - Erik Voorhees

The rate of ascent on that chart

is UNSUSTAINABLE. That doesn't mean it cannot rise further and longer. It doesn't mean the company is not a viable company. It doesn't mean Bitcoins are not a viable alternative to FRN's. I'm not saying any of that. I haven't really even taken the time to learn exactly what bitcoins are or what they propose to do, but I know this much: (repeat) THE RATE OF ASCENT ON THAT CHART IS UNSUSTAINABLE. I would not be a buyer here (but would be willing to consider buying after a consolidation).

SteveMT's picture

There are no circuit breakers or PPT to manage these changes.

Bitcoin just got infiltrated by the bankers, IMO. Big decrease today.

http://www.dailypaul.com/281390/bitcoin-loses-40-what-next

all the more reason

NOT to get caught long when the inevitable collapse comes, and it appears it may already be underway today.

The curve is called

The curve is called "adoption", are there going to be bumps along the way, of course, but what is happening is that value is flowing into this new currency as it is adopted as viable in the marketplace.

Bubbles...

exhibit curves, specifically parabolic curves just like bitcoin is exhibiting right now, and bubbles are in no way any kind of "adoption". Parabolic curves are omens of impending collapse/destructive explosion on charts of both financial investments and graphs of physical and chemical properties of the universe...

.
~wobbles but doesn't fall down~

SteveMT's picture

Bitcoin just lost 25% of its value.

Maybe it's just another flash crash, and Bitcoin will recover like it has done before. Anyway, some people must have just cashed-out of Bitcoin.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-04-10/bitcoin-tumbles-25-...

Yep...

MtGox is down...

The pattern lately is:

1) 20-25% crash 2) MtGox goes down 3) within an hour or so the price fully recovers.

This has happened 6 or 7 times in the past few weeks and can only mean the system is fixed. The price of bitcoin on the exchanges is supposed to be directly set by bids and offers of those using the exchanges. This behavior is extremely unnatural and can only mean that the price is being rigged manually. Certain people are cashing in before the system collapses...

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~wobbles but doesn't fall down~

Fed currency isn't money, it's paper promises of debt owed

Sound money tells another story.

Priced in Gold.
http://pricedingold.com/bitcoin/

Eventually Gold:Bitcoin will establish and evaluation channel.

Bitcoin has utility values as a reusable means of data exchange.

How much gold or silver is that worth in today's market?

Free includes debt-free!

It's a pyramid scam offered as a solution.

It's a racket.

Don't we have racketeering laws on the books? With Rico laws we could go after all of these BitCon advocates.

Perhaps "community service camps" so they can pay back their debt to society?

You want to make harmless data transfer a crime.

You are anti-freedom?

Free includes debt-free!

Fraud...

IS a crime.

The exchanges are supposed to be a bid/offer system where third parties conduct exchanges. The exchange gets a small percentage as a fee and the exchange price is 100% based on bids and offers of the third parties. This is in the exchanges "terms of use" (contract).

Half a dozen times in the past few weeks the price has collapsed 20-25% almost instantly then within an hour the price returns to pre-crash levels. There is NO WAY this is natural or not fraud! The exchanges are FIXING the exchange price!

Ron Paul has said over and over one of the few valid roles of govt is to prosecute fraud and enforce contracts! The bitcoin exchange exchange system is fraudulently violating open contracts they themselves have declared. They are engaging in THEFT...

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~wobbles but doesn't fall down~

Data transfer is not a crime: Caveat emptor.

Are you anti-freedom also.

Free includes debt-free!

Nobody said...

"data transfer is a crime" or even implied it.

Price-fixing on exchanges that violate the terms of service is a crime. Engaging in dummy transactions for the purpose of manipulating exchange price too. (racketeering)

Adi Shamir, the co-inventor of RSA encryption did an analysis showing that the MAJORITY of bitcoin transactions were strange fork-remerge patterns that cannot be valid commerce or even speculation:

http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1009

Also, 70-80% of all bitcoins are owned by a handful of exchanges (DANGER! DANGER!)...

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~wobbles but doesn't fall down~

It's all relative

Scale that Chart back, considering the amount of Dollars in the Global Economy you could scale it to 4th square power. but lets just expand the scale four times and you'll see a more accurate perspective of that chart.

Flip that Chart upside Down

and you now have Dollars priced in Bitcoin...

That's more understandable

Bitcoin Transaction Volume

...is not rising along with the price. I've yet to see a parabolic price chart have a happy ending.

Bitcoin's intrinsic value?

Digital currency representing a fiat currency?

Is this not correct?

=======
RON PAUL 2012

Bitcoin doesn't have intrinsic value...

it has subjective value, just like all things have subjective value.

Bitcoin's value isn't inside each Bitcoin, it is inside us, the price is a reflection of the combined subjective valuations of individuals participating in the market process.

It has value, because people have valued it.

Check out the Laissez-Faire Journal at LFJournal.com


"The State is a gang of thieves writ large." - Murray Rothbard

Only one person needed to value something subjectively.

The market cannot agree on value or no trade occurs.

A trade establishes relative value on one point in time. Each trader valuing what the other has more than they value what they hold.

People may agree on an evaluation but until two individuals contract their money, asset, commodity, service for trade, it merely suggests an agreement.

Free includes debt-free!

I understand that...

but it takes more than one person to have an exchange, in order to establish the market price.

Check out the Laissez-Faire Journal at LFJournal.com


"The State is a gang of thieves writ large." - Murray Rothbard

The nit I was picking

Was the idea that "people" create a perceived value.

Two people to be concise.

Free includes debt-free!

The Subjective Theory of Value...

is ****NOT**** a proclamation of metaphysical subjectivism!!!!!!

Menger, Rothbard, Hayek, et al, were ALL aristotelians. And to be an aristotelian means to be a thorough metaphysical objectivist.

The Subjective Theory of Value refers to *****PRICES***** that individual humans assign to things. It does ****NOT***** refer to the usefulness or "use value" of raw and finished goods and commodities.

You are making the jump from "humans assign prices" to the "universe is completely subjective". You are literally making the claim that bitcoins are just as good a antibiotic as penicillin. That bitcoins make just as strong a car bumper as steel. That bitcoins have the same nutritional value as beans. That you can replace the oxygen in a jet cabin with bitcoins and still breath just as easily.

The STV does NOT state that the variety of substances found in the universe all have equal usefulness and equal physical properties. The MAJORITY of Austrians are metaphysical objectivists. Menger, the guy who INVENTED the STV, was an aristotelian objectivist and talked about objective and subjective components of realty.

Bitcoin does not have intrinsic use value!!!! Oxygen has CRITICAL intrinsic use value. As does food and medicines. If you try to eat only bitcoins as food you will die from starvation.

The world exists outside of human minds (the universe is objective). And different substances have different degrees and types of usefulness (the common definition of "value").

You are beating people up with an erroneous simpleton interpretation of Menger's "Subjective Theory of Value". The STV refers to PRICES assigned by humans and does not proclaim any kind of metaphysical subjectivism as you are attempting (you have not actually studied the origins and underlying concepts that Menger based the STV on -- you just read some snippets of some articles and some blog comments).

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~wobbles but doesn't fall down~

Bitcoin's value as money is subjective.

I'm talking about the value of goods on the market, not methaphysics.

I am also not suggesting that objects don't have physical attributes that make them useful, I am stating that their value on the market is subjective.

Check out the Laissez-Faire Journal at LFJournal.com


"The State is a gang of thieves writ large." - Murray Rothbard

Sleepdog...

was referring to "intrinsic usefulness" of substances and objects(and I'm 99% sure you are fully aware of this).

The uber-common definition of "intrinsic value" on the street and even in most academic circles and specialites refers to the physical (as in physics) and chemical property of substances and finished goods and services.

Sleepdog was NOT referring to "specific prices assigned by individual humans". They were referring to physical (chemistry and physics) properties that make commodities useful. Again, I think in your heart you know this but the temptation to engage in a semantic parlor trick that suits your purposes is too strong for you to resist.

Gold, cows, food, medicine have valuable intrinsic physical and chemical usefulness outside use for exchange where bitcoin has none at all...

.
~wobbles but doesn't fall down~

If I misunderstood Sleepdog's application of the word...

then I apologize, but there are other people on this site who use "intrinsic value" actually meaning that economic value is inherently inside of a good, instead of usefulness.

I'm sorry that I mistook him as one of these people.

Check out the Laissez-Faire Journal at LFJournal.com


"The State is a gang of thieves writ large." - Murray Rothbard

I apologize...

for trying to characterize your motives. I shouldn't have done that. I let my frustrations over this issue, that I've been countering for decades, get the best of me. :p

The real problem is the words and terms used to describe the concepts are inadequate and need to be innovated and replaced.

People choose prices for all kinds of wacky and unpredictable reasons (praxeology) but at the same time various substances and objects have unique innate and intrinsic properties that make them uniquely, and often exclusively, useful as opposed to other substances and objects... :\

I always prefer starting word studies with Webster's 1828. In Webster's 1828 the definition of value is:

http://1828.mshaffer.com/d/word/value

The first or primary definition recognizes both the objective (usefulness in a commodity sense) and subjective components with an emphasis on the objective. The second definition focuses exclusively on the price. Modern dictionaries, especially economic ones, deemphasize the usefulness in favor of price.

I think this is the root of confusion. Maybe the solution is to strongly separate the terms "value" and "usefulness" but I'm not sure that can be carried to the "street" because the homeys tend to use the word "value" or "valuable" to mean usefulness as often as they use it to mean commanding a good price. :p

At any rate, googling "menger objective components" yields a quick introduction to Menger's objective/subjective breakdown of value...

.
~wobbles but doesn't fall down~