5 votes

Robb Wolf discusses the Paleo diet and health issues

I urge everyone to actually listen to the clip.

Robb Wolf - “I became very ill eating a vegan diet. I had ulcerative colitis, IBS and a host of other problems. I had started eating a vegan diet thinking this was a healthy way of eating. At the time, I was a research biochemist, and someone suggested that my problems might be resolved with the adoption of an ancestral (Paleo) way of eating. Within a few weeks of adopting a Paleo diet, my ulcerative colitis was gone, as were my other health concerns. I’ve been eating this way for 15 years now and have experienced better health than at any previous point in my life. Although the Paleo diet advocates the consumption of animal products, it is a thoughtful way of eating congruent with both ethics and sustainability, and I make this a large part of the education I provide.”

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I think gluten may be misapplied.

The table lists grain proteins.

Stomach acids digest proteins into amino acids when the acid is strong enough to activate the pepsin.

When the system fails partially digested protein chunks wreak havoc on intestines.

So any protein, fish, fowl, grain, legume and all can become a problem if not properly digested.

So salt food to taste to insure enough stomach acid is made and don't dilute it before you use it (eat).

Carbonated beverages are the worst.

But I agree, all sorts of grain proteins can be a problem. What may be true for most may not be true for everybody. It's a good thing to remember.

Free includes debt-free!

You might be interested in

You might be interested in this and other pages on Sisson's site.

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/why-grains-are-unhealthy/#axz...

Resist the temptation to feed the trolls.

Mark is not a believer in fiber.

Nor grains.

Free includes debt-free!

??

Yes, I know that. It even says "why grains are unhealthy" in the link.

Resist the temptation to feed the trolls.

That's pretty much the conclusion I have reached.

All proteins are digested in the stomach.

Strong, undiluted stomach acid activates the pepsin that reduces all proteins to amino acids which are safely absorbed.

Diluted or lack of stomach acid leaves undigested protein fragments. Some of the fragments are more destructive than others to the intestines.

People have developed all kinds of intolerance to a wide variety of protein sources; fish, shrimp, eggs, peanuts, tree nuts, and of course grain proteins.

The problem starts with the failure to fully digest proteins.

Salting to taste, no drinking an hour before, during an after a meal while limiting protein at a sitting to about 7 or 8 ounces. That is how much capacity we have for digestion at a meal.

If any protein, improperly digested causes problems, then how can I make sure I properly digest any protein I eat.

Free includes debt-free!

He May Be Blood Type O

Dr. D'Adamo says that if you see a sickly person in a healthfood store, it's probably an O trying to be vegetarian. They need red meat to be healthy.

A's should avoid red meat: they're the ones who turn red meat to fat and heart-attacks.

B's, like me, are known to be activists.

One man's meat is another man's poison, as, I think the good doctor Franklin may have said.

What do you think? http://consequeries.com/

interesting take

dr. mercola has another, as does dr. fuhrman:

Confusion of ideas

Mercola’s views on diet and health fail Nutrition 101: too much science contradicts him. But not everything he says is incorrect. He correctly points out that most vegetarians may not have excellent health because of their overdependence on grains. The literature is abundant with evidence that demonstrates that the foods with the best correlation with longer life and resistance against later-life diseases are vegetables, beans, raw seeds, fruit, and raw nuts.

Notice that grains are not included on the list. Eliminating animal products and continuing the consumption of processed grain foods is not a recipe for health or longevity. The bottom line is most vegetarians are unhealthy: they eat too much processed food. Whole grains are not nutrient-rich foods. They can form a minor part of your diet, but when they are baked, fried, toasted, shot out of cannons or otherwise processed or adulterated, they become low-nutrient junk foods that are powerfully disease-promoting.

There is good science to back up Mercola’s contention that some people are not going to get all of their nutritional needs met on a vegan diet and will need to add supplements to make their diet complete or even eat small amounts of animal products.

There are two very critical areas where Mercola departs from universally accepted science. First, if you add the large amounts of animal products he recommends (including red meat and butter)—and especially the large amounts he recommends for his “protein-type”—you will have a diet that powerfully promotes heart disease and cancer. There is no genetic “type” that has immunity from such a high-saturated fat, disease-causing diet.

All Americans, not just some, develop atherosclerosis when they eat a diet so high in animal products. Over 90% of Americans eventually develop atherosclerosis and hypertension from the low intake of unprocessed vegetable, fruits, beans, nuts and seeds, and high intake of animals products. Diets like the ones Mercola recommends—especially if they include processed foods—also lead to premature death from heart attacks or stroke.

The second critical departure is that his metabolic typing questionnaire is not an accurate way to determine a person’s nutritional needs. When he advises his “protein type” to eat a diet in which most calories are supplied by animal products, he is appealing to that person’s food preferences and addictions. The more you crave something and the worse you feel when you stop consuming it, the more likely that you are addicted to it and that it is harming you, not helping. Encouraging people who are addicted to meat or other animal products to eat more of them will lead to even shorter life spans.

No need to be vegan

Keep in mind, I am not arguing that a person who eats no animal products (a vegan) will be healthier or will lead a longer life than one who eats small amounts of animal products (such as a small amount of fish or eggs). What I am pointing out s that as animal products increase in the diet (and natural plant foods are forced off the plate), the modern diseases that kill over 80 per cent of Americans (heart disease, stroke, cancer, diabetes) will occur in greater and greater likelihood in every genetic type.

My review of over 60,000 articles in the scientific literature supports the conclusion that if animal products are consumed they should constitute no more that 10% of total caloric intake. Remember, animal products are high in calories and very low in nutrients-per-calorie compared with vegetables. The higher animal product consumption compared to a vegetable-based diet, the lower the nutrient intake. The typical American gets 40% of total calories from animal products (those on the Zone and South Beach diets get 60%, and Adkins adherents get 80%). Mercola’s high protein type diet is in the 60-80% range. Diets like these are extremely high in dangerous fats and extremely low in nutrients and phytonutrients.

http://www.vegsource.com/articles2/fuhrman_metabolics.htm

"where Mercola departs from universally accepted science."

You know, Al Gore says that man made global warming is happening is universally accepted science. But it's not. It has not been proven.

"First, if you add the large amounts of animal products he recommends (including red meat and butter)—and especially the large amounts he recommends for his “protein-type”—you will have a diet that powerfully promotes heart disease and cancer."

That animal products promote heart disease and cancer may also be "universally accepted science," yet it too has bot been proven.

"All Americans, not just some, develop atherosclerosis when they eat a diet so high in animal products."

This too may be "universally accepted science," yet it also has not been proven.

Resist the temptation to feed the trolls.

new article on mummies and their arteries

Calcifications of Mummies’ Arteries Due to Meat in Their Diet

“Atherosclerosis across 4000 years of human history: the Horus study of four ancient populations,” by Randall C. Thompson in the April 6, 2013 issue of the medical journal the Lancet, found that, “Atherosclerosis was common in four pre-industrial populations including pre-agricultural hunter-gatherers. Although commonly assumed to be a modern disease, the presence of atherosclerosis in pre-modern human beings raises the possibility of a more basic predisposition to the disease.”1 The article ends with an erroneous statement: “The presence of atherosclerosis in pre-modern human beings suggests that the disease is an inherent component of human ageing and not characteristic of any specific diet or lifestyle.”

Using high-tech computer technology with x-rays, a method called Computed Tomography (CT) scanning, investigators examined the preserved remains of mummies from Egyptian, Peruvian, Puebloan (from the southwest US), and Unangan (Inuit Eskimos from Aleutian Islands of modern day Alaska) populations. Mummies from all four regions showed disease. Of 137 bodies examined, 47 (34%) had probable or definite atherosclerosis; over an estimated age of 40, half had atherosclerosis.
Investigators provided information in this article about the diets of all four populations. Note that all, as hunter-gatherers, consumed animal foods:

Egyptians: Cattle, sheep, goats, pigs, hyenas, ducks, geese, quails, pheasants, and fish.
Peruvians: Alpaca, guinea pigs, ducks, Andean deer, birds, crayfish, and fish.
Puebloans: Rabbits, mice, big horn sheep, mule deer, and fish.
Unangans: Seals, sea lions, sea otters, whales, shellfish, sea urchins, eggs, and fish.

Except for the Unangans, the diets of these ancient people also contained important amounts of starches, vegetables, and fruits.

Finding calcium with CT scanning is considered pathognomonic for atherosclerosis, the most common kind of artery damage. (Pathognomonic means a sign or symptom of a disease that is so characteristic that it can be used to make a diagnosis.) Among modern people who follow the high-meat Western diet, calcification is ubiquitous in men by the age of 60 years and in women by 70 years.

Comment: People love to hear good news about their bad habits, and publication of this headline-grabbing article put the roast-beef sandwich back on the “guilt-free foods” list for many. These investigators reached a commonly held belief that dying from complications of atherosclerosis is an inevitable consequence of natural aging (with a little bad luck and genetics). Although with advancing age artery damage does become more common and severe, this disease also affects the very young. Autopsy data from American casualties of the Korean and Vietnam wars found atherosclerosis in 77% and 45%, respectively, of young men, with severe disease in 5%.2,3 A large autopsy study in the US of accident victims, aged 15–19 years, found atherosclerosis in the aortas in all of the remains, with heart (coronary artery) lesions in more than half.4 This extent of disease is typically only found in people following a diet high in meat. Similar examinations of the arteries of populations following diets with much less meat (and more starch), such as the Japanese, show healthier arteries at all ages.5 (Dairy, which I refer to as “liquid meat,” and synthetic trans-fats, also play a major role in modern day atherosclerosis.)

All four ancient populations, whose remains were reported on in the current Lancet study, consumed animal foods. Accurate written records of actual dietary habits are available only for the Egyptians. Hieroglyphic inscriptions on temple walls indicate that the royalty regularly consumed beef, sheep, goats, wild fowl, bread, and cake. A conservative estimate is that the diet of the privileged few who were mummified—the kings, queens, priests, and priestesses—was more than 50% fat, with a significant portion being saturated fat (from meat)—these fat figures are the same as those for the diets of modern Western people.

The diet of the people living in what is now known as Alaska was undoubtedly almost exclusively from animal foods—little else was available in their harsh winter environment for seven months of the year. What exactly the inhabitants of ancient Peru and those of southwestern US (Puebloans) ate centuries ago is up to speculation. However, meat must have been present at some periods of their lives in amounts sufficient to cause inflammation of their arteries, leaving the fingerprints of calcification.

Examination of the few hunter-gatherer populations surviving into modern times further establishes the “meat connection” to atherosclerosis. Researchers find that recently living, primitive-people who base their diets on animal flesh, such as the Inuits (Eskimos), suffer from heart disease and other forms of atherosclerosis; whereas those, such as the Tarahumara Indians of Mexico and numerous rural pastoral societies in Africa, who base their diets on plant foods (starches), are free of these diseases.6

CT scanning of modern-day people worldwide demonstrates dramatic differences in artery health, which can only be due to their eating habits and not due to their genetics. For example, the Japanese living in Japan, who consume a starch (rice)-based, low-meat diet, show calcification of the aorta half as often (36% vs. 69%) as do Japanese-Americans, whose diet is much more meat-based.6 Furthermore, calcification of the coronary (heart) arteries is strikingly lower among the native Japanese compared to Americans (13% vs. 47%).7

Most importantly, this Lancet study of atherosclerosis across 4000 years of human history of four ancient populations proves that “it’s the food.” You have heard the phrase “diet and lifestyle” in reference to the cause of common modern diseases, such as atherosclerosis. “Lifestyle” specifically refers to lack of exercise, the habit of cigarette smoking, and the burdens of various stresses associated with present-day living. These ancient people had none of these negative “lifestyle” factors affecting them, which leaves only their diet. “Lifestyle” is the scapegoat for people wanting to avoid the truth about the meat on their dinner table.

-From Mcdougall newsletter.

1) Thompson RC, Allam AH, Lombardi GP, Wann LS, Sutherland ML, Sutherland JD, Soliman MA, Frohlich B, Mininberg DT, Monge JM, Vallodolid CM, Cox SL, Abd el-Maksoud G, Badr I, Miyamoto MI, el-Halim Nur el-Din A, Narula J, Finch CE, Thomas GS. Atherosclerosis across 4000 years of human history: the Horus study of four ancient populations. Lancet. 2013 Apr 6;381(9873):1211-22. doi: 10.1016/S0140-6736(13)60598-X.

2) Joseph A, Ackerman D, Talley JD, Johnstone J, Kupersmith J. Manifestations of coronary atherosclerosis in young trauma victims—an autopsy study. J Am Coll Cardiol 1993; 22: 459–67.

3) Virmani R, Robinowitz M, Geer JC, Breslin PP, Beyer JC, McAllister HA. Coronary artery atherosclerosis revisited in Korean war combat casualties. Arch Pathol Lab Med 1987; 111: 972–76.

4) Strong JP, Malcom GT, McMahan CA, et al. Prevalence and extent of atherosclerosis in adolescents and young adults: implications for prevention from the Pathobiological Determinants of Atherosclerosis in Youth Study. JAMA 1999; 281: 727–35.

5) Imakita M, Yutani C, Strong JP, Sakurai I, Sumiyoshi A, Watanabe T, Mitsumata M, Kusumi Y, Katayama S, Mano M, Baba S, Mannami T, Masuda J, Sueishi K, Tanaka K. Second nation-wide study of atherosclerosis in infants, children and young adults in Japan. Atherosclerosis. 2001 Apr;155(2):487-97.

6) Ströhle A, Wolters M, Hahn A. Carbohydrates and the diet-atherosclerosis connection--more between earth and heaven. Comment on the article “The atherogenic potential of dietary carbohydrate.” Prev Med. 2007 Jan;44(1):82-4; author reply 84-5.

7) El-Saed A, Curb JD, Kadowaki T, Okamura T, Sutton-Tyrrell K, Masaki K, Seto TB, Takamiya T, Choo J, Edmundowicz D, Evans RW, Fujiyoshi A, Nakamura Y, Miura K, Shin C, Kuller LH, Ueshima H, Sekikawa A. The prevalence of aortic calcification in Japanese compared to white and Japanese-American middle-aged men is confounded by the amount of cigarette smoking. Int J Cardiol. 2012 Jan 10.

8) Sekikawa A, Ueshima H, Zaky WR, Kadowaki T, Edmundowicz D, Okamura T, Sutton-Tyrrell K, Nakamura Y, Egawa K, Kanda H, Kashiwagi A, Kita Y, Maegawa H, Mitsunami K, Murata K, Nishio Y, Tamaki S, Ueno Y, Kuller LH. Much lower prevalence of coronary calcium detected by electron-beam computed tomography among men aged 40–49 in Japan than in the US, despite a less favorable profile of major risk factors. Int J Epidemiol. 2005 Feb;34(1):173-9.

Atherosclerosis across 4000

Atherosclerosis across 4000 years of human history: the Horus study of four ancient populations.

Probable or definite atherosclerosis was noted in 47 of 137 mummies and in all four geographical populations: 29 of 76 ancient Egyptians, 13 of 51 ancient Peruvians, two of five Ancestral Puebloans, and three of five Unangan hunter gatherers

That is telling to actually

That is telling to actually know the numbers. Makes McDougall's assumptions look even more flimsy.

Resist the temptation to feed the trolls.

Yep, more McDougall flim flam.

I'm telling you, Dr. Grainetarian has his book, DVD and processed prepackaged food empire to lose if people stop falling for his high grain, high starch racket.

http://www.iherb.com/search?kw=mcdougall&x=0&y=0#none

As with the China Study, lots of giant assumptions being made as to the causes of health issues or lack of.

And notice this: "Except for the Unangans, the diets of these ancient people also contained important amounts of starches, vegetables, and fruits."

As far as we really know, the starches were the cause of, or a factor in, their health issues.

Don't fall for these supposed experts who make giants leaps to conclusions.

Resist the temptation to feed the trolls.

hey here's an idea

how about we post articles we think are good and let everyone decide for themselves what they buy and don't buy.

i don't get the attacks and putdowns, or does that come with the paleo approach?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdxVfi632Xw

No attacks or put downs.

We're merely calling bullsh1t on bullsh1t.

It's not an attack or put down to point out that McDougall's and the China Study's conclusions are flawed and faulty.

McDougall is not scientifically driven. He is financially and emotionally driven.

I personally wouldn't mind seeing this thread die a natural death. But you and what's-her-name keep making posts on it.

Resist the temptation to feed the trolls.

and here i thought

we were presenting information (and different options) for people to decide what makes sense for them. but when you're jumping up and down "calling bullshit" down voting and so forth on people who are sincere in trying to help others get healthy,
well yeah it might be time to call it a day. i think it's more likely you who is emotionally driven. i haven't seen mcdougall calling others names. he and fuhrman both are doctors who present well thought out and well referenced articles, and help many people just like some paleo proponents you like.
paleo lessons
http://nutritionfacts.org/video/paleolithic-lessons/

Davy, you're the one acting emotional

You know, bullsh1t is bullsh1t. Don't blame those who point that out. And it's not name calling. McDougall and the like are not based on science and are not healthy.

And no need to call it day. If you want to start a McDougall dis-info thread. There are several here who will love it.

Resist the temptation to feed the trolls.

now you're just being silly

& you're the one who said you hoped the thread would die. name calling, jumping on every post that doesn't correspond with your beliefs, down voting and so on is indicative of emotion. all i did was post an article that came out in a medical journal. no i don't want to start a mcdougall thread, in fact i disagree with him on some things, but i realize that he is sincere as anybody. watching debates and interviews phonies are easy to spot, and imo he is not one. and they all make money. you're really grasping for straws there. you think he should do it for free? i thought you were a libertarian. the paleo business is booming too, and i say great if that's what those folks want.

i would think that any rational thinker after reading these blurbs would say, well there must be SOMETHING to it, for some people even if it's not for you.

"Dr. John McDougall is on a mission to make us healthier. Read The Starch Solution. It may save your life and your brain."
–Dennis Bourdette, MD, Chair and Roy and Eulalia Swank Family Research Professor, Department of Neurology

"The Starch Solution is an easy and powerful way to achieve the very best of health. Dr. McDougall’s unparalleled knowledge and experience have brought us the best possible way to help people lose weight, lower their cholesterol and blood pressure, boost their energy, and change their lives."

–Neal Barnard, author of the 21-Day Weight Loss Kickstart

"You'll be doing the happy dance when you read this book! Hallelujah, and bring on the pasta!"

–Kathy Freston, author of The Veganist

"Bold, honest, and ringing with truth, The Starch Solution will show you exactly how to reclaim your health and your life. Nobody has ever delivered this message so clearly. Dr. John McDougall's latest contribution is destined to become a classic."

–Douglas J. Lisle, Ph.D., co-author of The Pleasure Trap

"This maverick physician has a wealth of knowledge that could be the key to a tremendous improvement. I personally know many people who have found the McDougall program to be the key to vastly improved health for themselves and their families. This book lays it out clearly and without compromise."

–John Robbins, author of No Happy Cows, The Food Revolution, and Diet For A New America

"Dr. McDougall and Mary have done it again. The Starch Solution is a thorough and absorbing explanation of the health benefits and nutritional excellence of a plant based diet. In addition to being healthy, the food was delicious and satisfying."

–Robert A Rosati, MD, co-author of the New York Times bestseller, The Rice Diet Solution

"John McDougall, M.D. has once again produced an outstanding book with recommendations gleaned from his decades of medical experience and strongly supported by the scientific literature. He has the courage to tell the truth about both the business of medicine, which largely ignores the role of diet , and the forces of evil that sell the promises of fractionated foods and diet fads. The information in this book can provide the reader the power needed to lose weight and regain health."

–Alan Goldhamer, Director, TrueNorth Health Center, Co-author of The Pleasure Trap

"The Starch Solution is one of the most important books ever written on healthy eating. As Dr. McDougall shows us in his book, human beings flourish on starch foods from whole food sources. When combined with healthy servings of vegetables and fruits we have the perfect diet to prevent and reverse the lifestyle diseases that are now killing 80% of Americans—obesity, heart disease, strokes, diabetes, and cancer. The recipes included in the book are easy and delicious. The Starch Solution will change your life. Read it and live it."

–John P. Mackey, co-chief Executive Officer and Director, Whole Foods Market, Inc.

"This time the Star McDougaller is John himself joining with Mary in creating a masterfully crafted nutrition guide that destroys harmful myths and enhances the enduring capacity of whole food plant based nutrition as the foundation to our long overdue health revolution."

–Caldwell B. Esselstyn, Jr., M.D., author of Prevent and Reverse Heart Disease

"Eat all you want; any time you want". Statements that sound too good to be true usually are... too good to be true. But John McDougall's new book "The Starch Solution", richly referenced for science, but gracefully written for consumers, just might be both good and true."

–George D Lundberg MD, Editor at Large, MedPage Today; Former Editor in Chief of JAMA., Medscape and eMedicine from WebMD

"Great news! Thank you John! Now we can eat carbs guilt-free and maintain our figures" –Elizabeth Kucinich, Director of Public Affairs for the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine

"The Starch Solution is a viable approach to solving many health problems including obesity, heart disease, and type-2 diabetes and will have a positive impact on our environment. I highly recommend it."

–Congressman Dennis J. Kucinich

"John McDougall has done it again. This time, clarifying the issue of starches and the important role they play in human nutrition, improving our health and the health of the planet."

–Jeff Novick, Vice President for Executive Health Exams International and lectures at the McDougall Program

"The option is pretty simple. Meat and potatoes and later angioplasty and bypass or a plant-based (starch diet) and medicine-less and procedure-less health and happiness. The 12th McDougall book shows the way. It is highly recommended."

–William C. Roberts, MD, Editor in chief, The American Journal of Cardiology, Executive Director, Baylor Heart and Vascular Institute, Baylor University Medical Center, Dallas

Starch Solution?

One doesn't need a book to learn about starches. Just measure oneself: http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes/14045524.php


AHS12 Panel — Safe Starches: Are they Essential to an Ancestral Diet?

talk about

"regurgitating stuff filtered through entities who have beliefs and agendas they are trying to support, which is tedious to many of us."

Davy

I didn't post the comment you are referring to... LOL

Actually it seems like an interesting discussion. Did you even watch it?

Resist the temptation to feed the trolls.

yes i know

your tag team buddy did, and it's not the first time. i tried watching but i couldn't get past the chubby unhealthy looking dude who starts it off.
i'm not familiar with that LOL thing. does it stand for lick our liver. no thanks.

Get control of yourself.

You're upset because I have no use for this stuff that you desperately want to believe in.

Want to do something genuinely constructive? Do some looking into Dr. Weston A. Price's research. Not Dr. Price's research filtered through Dr. McDougall, or Dr. Esselstyn or any one else. Look into Dr. Price's research for yourself and see what you find. Maybe post a thread on here with it.

Resist the temptation to feed the trolls.

get over yourself

why would i care if you have use for it or not? if i was upset i'd be down voting like you. and maybe you missed where i said i don't always agree with him (or anybody) for that matter. i don't know if you went through the blurbs but here's one from a good friend of ron paul's and a member of his new peace & prosperity institute. like paul he's known for his honesty and integrity. do you really think he'd give a positive blurb to a flim flam man? get real.

"The Starch Solution is a viable approach to solving many health problems including obesity, heart disease, and type-2 diabetes and will have a positive impact on our environment. I highly recommend it."

–Congressman Dennis J. Kucinich

Kucinich means well

but he's a weak sister who is not the most knowledgeable on many things. He folded and voted for Obama care. And he has IBS, very likely from eating all the grains that McDougall recommends. One hopes that he puts two and two together and figures that out.

Resist the temptation to feed the trolls.

ron paul

obviously disagrees with you. two great friends and men of integrity, men of peace, but somehow Musician and H knows better.

Oh my.

I know fact.

And that Ron Paul and Kucinich are friends has nothing to do with this.

Look at Kucinich's record. As well meaning as he is he often ends up on the wrong side of issues. I mean he was the vote that pushed America over the cliff with Obama care. So yes, sometimes I do know better. I wouldn't have voted for that.

I like Kucinich a lot and it's great that he and Ron Paul are great friends, but Kucinich is not Ron Paul. He may be well meaning and have the very best of intentions, but sometimes his judgement is lacking.

And the fact that grains tend to be the cause of IBS is fact, not my idea.

Resist the temptation to feed the trolls.

you've missed the point

kucinich would not endorse a flim flam artist. & there's one BIG issue that ron and dennis agree 100% PEACE. how many others do?

tend to be the cause? since you like him a lot i'm sure you could send him some info (you know do something constructive).

Seriously Davy, get control of yourself

I'm concerned that you might strangle your dog or drive over a cliff or something. You really do seem to have an emotional investment in this and it really shows. And it's obviously not healthy.

That Kucinich, who sometimes has poor judgement, is friends with Ron Paul and an advocate of peace, does not make his endorsement hold more weight or his judgement necessarily spot on.

Now really, get control of your emotions.

Resist the temptation to feed the trolls.

i've seen this time and again from you

if someone disagrees with you, then they have a problem, they must be trolls, it's all BS.

debate to my mind is healthy but it can become tedious with some individuals and the worn out tactic of calling the kettle black.

seriously.

Davy

I was serious when I suggested that you look into Dr. Weston A. Price's research for yourself. His findings are very interesting. And you will come to understand how the likes of McDougall and Esselstyn twist and spin Dr. Price's findings to suit their beliefs and agendas.

The Weston A. Price Foundation does not condone veganism or vegetarianism. http://www.westonaprice.org/

They are on record calling out various supposed health groups for having an underlying vegetarianism agenda that they push, often in a veiled way claiming to be helping the greater good.

This animal products cause all ills and vegetarianism will save us stuff is very much like Al Gore's global warming scam. If you cherry pick which experts you listen to and which faulty studies suit your agenda you can claim it proves anything you want. In reality, there are no credible findings that support global warming or the animal products are the cause of our ills agendas.

You want legitimate debate? Start by looking into Dr. Price's research for yourself. Then we'll talk. Otherwise you are simply regurgitating stuff filtered through entities who have beliefs and agendas they are trying to support, which is tedious to many of us.

Resist the temptation to feed the trolls.