-19 votes

Can you be open border and a Libertarian?

There are a couple issues that Libertarians are divided on. One is immigration. There are those who would have you believe that to be Libertarian you must be open border. They equate free markets with open borders. The problem with that is the rest of the world does not comply with free market philosophy. We have millions of illegal Mexicans in the US because Mexico is a slave state that hemorrhages people over here and thus gets rid of people who would probably overthrow the Mexican regime if they did not have the US crutch to lean on. Open borders are only practical in theory.There is a real honest concern for national security both from real terrorism and crime perpetrated by illegals. I am not demonizing .It is simply a fact that with millions of people there will be criminals among them. Our prisons are filled with proof of this fact. There is also the theory that illegals are good for the economy? Again that only works in theory or if you are only really concerned with management. From a workers perspective illegals do lower our standard of living. There is also a controversial cultural perspective. Even if you are Hispanic do you feel that the Spanish language should supplant English? You may say "well if the majority speak Spanish yes" The problem with that is there has always been an unspoken rule in this country. You come here you work hard and you might bring and celebrate privately your culture but you become an American. You do not live here as a foreigner. If we are ok with the majority of people speaking Spanish in America (as has happened in some places in America , to include Spanish only public school programs ..etc) simply because of a simple majority than how about throwing out the bill of rights?Or the 2nd Amendment? The vast majority of illegals seem to support a kind of slave/ socialist govt so if they become the simple majority should we not bow to this "new" America. The answer is of course no.Cultures do supplant others it has happened all the time in history. Weaker people's ways are overtaken by more aggressive people. The problem with that is American culture is superior to Mexican culture and Irish and English and Iranian culture. Taking freedom of speech as a given is an American trait. What happened in 1776 was a fusion of ideas from thousands of years of humans living in bondage to other humans. "Liberty is young , tyranny is old" Personally on immigration I am a Buchanan man. I want a complete moratorium on immigration . As near as I can tell we have more than enough low skilled labor We must end the welfare state but the people who remain should be compelled to "become Americans" Local schools should do away with Spanish only programs, employers should be encouraged to only hire people who speak English and our history OUR ancient traditions should be taught again in schools and universities. Do not take this as an attack on Mexicans. Mexican culture is family orientated is hard working and we have many great Americans here who can trace their lineage to Mexico. We are Americans . If you do not want to be an American you should not be here.



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Phxarcher87's picture

Its like

being pro bongs but anti weed

THE CLASS OF CITIZENS WHO PROVIDE AT ONCE THEIR OWN FOOD AND THEIR OWN RAIMENT, MAY BE VIEWED AS THE MOST TRULY INDEPENDENT AND HAPPY.
James Madison

Open borders violate & desecrate basic Libertarian principles

Q1. Who owns America? The government or the American people?

Q2. If you believe that Constitutionally protected American citizens own America, would you take the tangible and intangible property currently managed by the government from other American citizens and give it, sell it or loan it to foreigners?

Hmmm?

"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty" TJ

Who owns my stuff?

"The government or the American people?"

The answer, of course, is, "NO!" I own my stuff. If I have a ranch or a factory and I wish to hire "undocumented aliens", how am I trespasing against anyone else? How does an imaginary line on a map decide whom I am permitted to hire and whom I should not?

The real question is: Do you believe in free markets, or borders?

dynamite anthrax supreme court white house tea party jihad
======================================
West of 89
a novel of another america
https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/161155#longdescr

My question was, "Who owns America?

You own your stuff on your own property, of course.
Don't deflect the question.

Who owns the Interstate system, Gene Greigh?
Who owns the military, the rivers, the National parks?

"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty" TJ

Ha!

Citizen Dave's vision of property rights includes a clause that he has a stake in your property by telling you who and who can't work or live there.

ddon't be riddiculous! America is like Disneyland!

I'll explain it so a child can understand it.

On your way in the gate you pay for the roller coasters, attractions, security, cleaning services, maintenance, trains, roads, water rides, etc. Just like in America.

If you climb over the fence without paying, you get thrown out and banned for life. That seems fair to me.

Being inside Disneyland, and all paid up with a ticket stub in pocket, doesn't stop you from being able to pay a kid a quarter to hold your cotton candy while you go to the public toilet which is similar to government toilets all across America.

Other than nuclear warheads, there is little difference between America and Disneyland as they are both run by goofy cartoon characters.

"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty" TJ

Your first premise is all messed up.

How is America like Disney lands in a property debate? America is divided into millions of privately owned plots of land. If I want my Mexican spouse(someone that happened to pop out of their mama's womb on the wrong side of some arbitrary rulers line) to live with me on my land, who are you to tell me I can't do that? I own my own property. I am not going to tell you want you can and can not do on your own land. Disney land is a private parcel owned by one entity, in business to make a profit. How can you compare that to the properties of some odd 200 million private property owners?

My premise is A-OK.

I'll say it again:
"You own your stuff on your own property, of course."
"YOU OWN YOUR STUFF ON YOUR OWN PROPERTY, OF COURSE."

The topic is America.

I used Disneyland as I thought you could make the connection. I'll try again.

DDucks is managing Disneyland when someone sneaks over the fence. Dducks lets the guy hang around using most of the facilities and eventually gives the guy a lifetime membership and benefits.

Open borders is not a principled position, because half the country is NOT privately owned, and it is wrong to take it from citizens to give to non-paying foreigners.

I heard the following from Dr. Ron Paul, to paraphrase: "If you don't protect the borders, you don't really have a country, do you?"

The following quote from Ron Paul is from http://www.ronpaul.com/on-the-issues/border-security/

"A nation without borders is no nation at all. After decades of misguided policies America has now become a free-for-all. Our leaders betrayed the middle class which is forced to compete with welfare-receiving illegal immigrants who will work for almost anything, just because the standards in their home countries are even lower.

If these policies are not reversed, the future is grim. A poor, dependent and divided population is much easier to rule than a nation of self-confident individuals who can make a living on their own and who share the traditions and values that this country was founded upon."

"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty" TJ

Incentive...

I came across an 'incentive' concept re: migrant workers
that I thought had merit... just as well insert it here as anywhere else:
The concept came from a candidate running for Senate last election
(I forget his name off hand)..
It's similar to ripping a $100 bill in half... to ensure compliance..
you get the 'other' half at the border... when you return.
Basically, the 'employer' withholds a percentage of the paycheck
that accrues in an escrowed account.
The 'savings' balance is waiting at the border
when they complete their contract
and return home.

Sugar

So long as there is this ridiculous nanny state, immigration will not function properly at all. We'll neither get the correct number or type of immigrant so long as our policies are so screwed up and wrong.

Immigration is not a problem in a Libertarian Society

Issues or concerns with immigration are related to the government controls that are currently imposed in society. Let's analyze of few of the ones you have mentioned...

1) "...the rest of the world does not comply with free market philosophy." Not an issue at all. We all agree that a free market creates the most competition and thus allows for businesses to be as efficient as they possibly can be. Thus in a free market, the companies will be able to out compete any others. The USA is sadly not a free market and thus where it should be able to produce cheap cars and other goods, it has fallen behind to countries such as China, Taiwan, Japan, etc.

2) "...real honest concern for national security both from real terrorism and crime perpetrated by illegals." Again a libertarian society easily resolves this issue. In a country where a judicial system functions, as the USA does for the most part, criminals are less likely to come and test their luck. Similar to cities that are "gun free" and others that promote "stand your ground" policies. If a country poses itself as a big risk for a criminal via efficient prosecutions and harsh punishments, then criminals will think twice about committing a crime in these locations. The main issue is that we have laws such as against drugs, prostitution, gambling, etc, that consume the resources that would normally be dedicated to fighting real crime.

3) "From a workers perspective illegals do lower our standard of living." Yes, this could be considered a draw back to Libertarianism, but only in the short term. If you are a hard worker, good at what you do, then you will move up. If you start out as a factory sweeper, you may grow into a position of an assembly line, and if you continue to work hard you move into higher and higher positions up to the point of your ability. I have a great example of one of our farm hands that started out as a hoer (manually removing weeds from the fields), he then became head hoer, eventually moving up to tractor operator, and eventually up to manager of spraying. He lived under a temporary shack made out of a plastic tarp and some small trees he cut down with a machete. It was him, his wife, and two baby girls. He passed away in an accident a few months ago, but left his wife with over $1 million dollars in equity between farm land and machinery, one of his daughters went to a renowned university abroad, while his other daughter finished high school and married. This is all from a man without more than a 6th grade education. Now he was only able to move up because there was someone to take his spot from below. As the company (farm) grew, he grew. If companies are able to higher cheap labor, they need someone to supervise that cheap labor. If they have cheap labor they can compete worldwide and grow. The hard working Americans will automatically be given the chance of supervisor/manager/etc. simply because they have worked and proved themselves already in the company.

4)...culture. Well of course the culture will change, it is always changing. But our values should remain the same; life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness (the principles of libertarianism). Mexicans will learn English because the economy will demand it of them. Public schools shouldn't exist, in a libertarian society, thus they are irrelevant. If a private school only teaches in Spanish, that is their decision, but I can assure you that they will not last long.

You have assumed that Libertarianism will not work with an open border, but what you are analyzing is how socialism will work with an open border. Socialism is what we have today and it does NOT work with an open border. Socialism must prevent goods and services from competing with its own goods and services and must prevent people from entering because of abuse on its social programs. Reanalyze your points but look at it as if you were living in a free market, in a libertarian society.

Horse hockey!

To head up your comments with:
"Immigration is not a problem in a Libertarian Society"
is a false indictment of Libertarianism.

COMMON LIBERTARIAN OPINION: A Libertarian society would be wonderful.

~Therefore~

A LIBERTARIAN THEORY: A WONDERFUL SOCIETY WOULD BE A POWERFUL DRAW TO THE UNFORTUNATE people out there grinding out an existence in the crappy, miserable societies.

LIBERTARIAN RESEARCH AND CONFIRMATION: ALL societies perceived as wonderful have had immigration problems.

"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty" TJ

hate to break it to you

but this has already been tried in Great Britain, big fail.

In addition, in the US, unless you live anywhere in the US but border states, you might pretend that they would learn english but they dont, English is done.

It's everything but English.

I have stats from the last amnesty, everything you put forward I can counter with actual numbers, not feel good ideas.

Huh?

Libertarianism has never been tried in Great Britain going back a thousand years.

"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty" TJ

Of course it fails - it is socialism

Read what I wrote. Everything that you complain about doesn't occur in a free society; I live in one. I immigrated to another country which has open borders. The immigrants in their majority speak Portuguese, but the economy demands people speak Spanish. The same concerns are going about how the culture is changing and people won't learn Spanish, but it takes time. Older people won't learn the new language, such as my mother. But the children or grandchildren will. It takes time and it can be frustrating when you go to the market and people don't speak the "official" language, but remember that the entire USA was composed of different people from the entire world. Immigrants will assimilate with time. Brazil has the largest population of Japanese in the world outside of Japan, yet they have assimilated. It took decades and there are still a few that remain speaking Japanese only, but they are a minority. Think of the Irish, the Germans, the Africans, any large group that lives in the USA and you will see how history shows the same story over and over again. First the group moves to the USA in a large migration during a duration of several years if not decades. The group moves to the same cities, the same neighborhoods. They may even have their own schools and local governments. Long time Americans complain, sometimes even punish them. But with time the children go to college, marry an American or another foreigner, move to another city in search of jobs, and eventually assimilate.

It will happen all over again.

You people pushing

for open borders are NUTS !....

"If ever time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin."
Samuel Adams

minus one

Please clarify my alleged pathology. Hurling epithets may offer a little cathartic satisfaction, but rhetorically, it is tantamount to surrender.

dynamite anthrax supreme court white house tea party jihad
======================================
West of 89
a novel of another america
https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/161155#longdescr

the thing is

they have absolutely nothing to back up their utopian open border plan.

Meanwhile I put up an entire statistical post, on how nearly half of all illegals fill up federal prison, a majority of California prison, nearly always vote for big government Democrats when they become citizens and could care less about Liberty or the Constitution.

But hey feel free to push your open border agenda on Mexico's southern border of Guatemala, fairly sure you'll be sitting in a nice Mexico prison, because Mexico has armed gaurds along the border and minimum jail time for Gautemalans breaking intome country.

But it's always the US that has to do the crazy stuff, sure let's open the borders to the US and flood it with the poor and criminal element, meanwhile Mexico will never have open borders with its poor neighbor to the south.

So the utopian worldwide open border policy only means Mexico and the USA - nice.

Damn Right !

I could go on and on about this but why bother. Stupid is as Stupid does and anybody pushing for open border illegal immigration are stupid drunk on their own intellectual vomit......

"If ever time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin."
Samuel Adams

open borders is one global government globalism

Same people that infiltrate the Republican and Democrat parties have infiltrated the Libertarian Party.

Open Borders is anti United States, it's the United Nation gang, global currency, its NAFTA, GATT, its Lindsey Graham John McCain and President Obama with some crazy nutty Nancy Pelosi and Roobio theown in for good measure, it's pushing a global agenda period.

If you don't see it, do some research .

Nope...well, kinda..

I've been on-again, off-again affiliated with the Libertarian Party since 1974 and can assure you that the open borders plank was in the platform up until....maybe 2006? I had two letters published in the LP National Newspaper that year making the case against the LP open borders policy. Shortly thereafter with no other input from me whatsoever, the plank was changed.

People have been infiltrating the various political parties since the beginning.

I have a friend now who back in the late 80's, infiltrated our county LP organization for the Republicans, and intentionally or not, disrupted a few meetings by arguing against Libertarian principles. Everybody hated his guts, but it was good experience as we practiced the Ransberger pivot on him. Since then, we've worn him all the way down.

Below is the LP plank dealing with:

3.4 Free Trade and Migration

We support the removal of governmental impediments to free trade. Political freedom and escape from tyranny demand that individuals not be unreasonably constrained by government in the crossing of political boundaries. Economic freedom demands the unrestricted movement of human as well as financial capital across national borders. However, we support control over the entry into our country of foreign nationals who pose a credible threat to security, health or property.

"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty" TJ

Google 'libertarian blue card idea'

And you will see, how open borders can work. Freedom of movement, ie human liberty is universal right as are private property rights.

As Ron Paul said, be very careful about the walls you put up. One day they may be used to keep you in.

Treg

Yes, please BUY this wonderful libertarian BOOK! We all must know the History of Freedom! Buy it today!

"The System of Liberty: Themes in the History of Classical Liberalism" ...by author George Smith --
Buy it Here: http://www.amazon.com/dp/05211820

Sounds good in a perfect world

Yet I do not believe the people streaming across the borders have any idea about libertarian views. This is simply a matter of economic convenience from whatever source be it either public or private.

These people are too concerned about their stomachs to consider any philosphical libertarian questions. Therefore it does not seem to be a good match imo for the long run.

donvino

you got that right, Utopian craziness

Same Nutjob Libertarians you see running the LP. There are lots of great Libertarian principles, open borders is not one of them.

Open borders, Closed borders

No such thing as open borders but who controls them is what matters, what is their agenda?

Sessions: ‘A large-scale amnesty is likely to add trillions of d

ollars to the debt over time’: http://dailycaller.com/2013/01/28/sessions-a-large-scale-amn... debt destroys the middle class. Anything that increases the debt is not good and is not libertarian. Libertarian are supposed to be against government involvement and against government spending a lot. The only way to increase debt is to raise taxes or spend a lot. Ron Paul on illegal immigration you subsidize illegal immigration you get more of it. Ron Paul we need to get rid of the subsidizes and have no amnesty. According to Ron Paul with amnesty you have more of illegal immigration and according to him we need to have no amnesty: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y3zEP75kFM

jhon

Can you not be open border if you're libertarian?

Impractical? It's good for business, good for everyone. Closed borders are supported by trade unionists and bigots, not libertarians.

Take back the GOP and Restore America Now.

old poor Richard has found

the LaRaza talking points.

Nothing to do with race, everything to do with common sense.

congratulations

you have pulled the race card. Your right it's impossible that any of my arguments have any substance . Much better to simply say bigot and use a tried and true tactic of name calling

Why would you want to be Libertarian

especally the LaRaza "Open Border" type?

I am a constitutionalist, not a globalist utopian Libertarian. Ron Paul is NOT a libertarian, this site is not Libertarian.

You have Constitutional Libertarians and you have globalist Libertarians. The latter do not care about the United States or any government run society, they are wacky and believe somehow that the entire globe should have no borders, no nation states, no government at all - Just the opposite of what the Constitution stands for.

Your down voters here are from a group of LaRaza, pro amnesty supporters whose job it is to infiltrate sites like this, Green Party, GOP sites etc., and spew nonsense about unlimited immigration, a border less society, global agendas etc.

Nutjobs