62 votes

To be right, or to be effective?

This post is addressed to those who believe they have a divine right to discuss any and all conspiracy theories on the Daily Paul. After reading, I would appreciate it if you would answer the question at the bottom.

- - - -

So the government lies. This is well established. Is it news anymore? Do we have to go about documenting - in minute detail - every single lie and potential lie to the point that we're even making up lies ourselves?

Meanwhile, our rights are slowly drained away.

Telling people that the Boston Marathon bombing was a false flag with actors does one thing: It makes you look crazy.

What is it that people are after by pursuing that line of reasoning? Is the goal to be right, or to be effective?

Those screaming "FALSE FLAG!" are most certainly "right" - in their own minds. They "know" and have "proof" that it was all a hoax. To them it is so "obvious" that anyone who can't see it is an "idiot."

Is this an effective way to promote Liberty? For that, all you need is the Constitution, specifically, the 4th Amendment:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Which discussion is better for promoting liberty to non-initiates?

A) An argument over whether the 4th Amendment was violated in Boston by the door to door searches for the surviving Marathon Bomber,

or

B) An argument over whether the bombing was a staged Hollywood production with fake blood and actors who didn't have legs to begin with?



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I'm right there with you Michael

Thanks for all you do! Keep the faith brother.

Ron Paul - Intellectual hero

the stranger's picture

that's a first

Those screaming "FALSE FLAG!" are most certainly "right" - in their own minds. They "know" and have "proof" that it was all a hoax. To them it is so "obvious" that anyone who can't see it is an "idiot."

So, a false flag is when a crime takes place, but it is claimed to have been a fake event. Then, false flag simply means hoax. Interesting.

I was thinking that a false flag was designed to deceive in such a way that the operations appear as though they are being carried out by entities other than those who actually planned and executed them. A well documented concept - with elements hoax, to be sure.

Which discussion is better for promoting liberty to non-initiates?
A) discussion over whether the 4th Amendment was violated...
or
B) discussion over whether it was a staged Hollywood production...

Rhetorical question, no need to answer. I guess disagree with your overall premise. And I think that's a first.

Since you asked us to answer

It is clearly A...and this is what should be focused on.

When I talk amongst my circles of libertarian friends, we often discuss things like the Boston conspiracy stuff among ourselves. Some of it is interesting, some of it is weird.

But when spreading our ideas to the masses, it's important to stick to *principles* and *facts* in order to influence people.

I don't know if Sandy Hook or Boston was staged by the government or staged by terrorists. Either way, the perpetrators win if we focus on the fringe details and theories over the principles, such as the unspoken declaration of martial law and 4th amendment violations.

Michael makes a salient point, as usual.

http://lionsofliberty.com/
*Advancing the Ideas of Liberty Daily*

same difference

I don't know if Sandy Hook or Boston was staged by the government or staged by terrorists

But you repeat yourself.

Michael,

Thank you very much for everything you have done. This site is in my opinion the spear-head of the liberty movement. Please know that you are now in control of a very important instrument. I know things can get stressful at times, just keep doing what you are doing and know we are grateful.

In my humble opinion I think you have answered your own question. This site is already a quest for truth; both in investigation and in asserting our rights. Why not cater to both in a more compartmentalized mannered? That is, instead of having the main page focus on any single popular topic; make it easier to go into several different "front pages"-regarding different themes; religion, "developing investigations". (the huff post comes to mind). Meanwhile maintaining the front-front page on more of the effective side.

Rafael 111

"We’ve moved beyond the Mises textbook. We’re running in the open market." - Erik Voorhees

Thank you

Michael, thank you so much for bringing this question up. Over the last two years, here in Charlotte, NC, I've struggled with the same issue. Here's my take... People are going to try to "promote" liberty however they want, and you can't make the conspiracy crowd be quiet without being labeled a tyrant who loves censorship. As someone who spent time working as an intern on the Paul campaign in Iowa and New Hampshire, I would have NEVER muttered a word of any conspiracy to a voter while talking to them about Ron Paul. Doing something like that would have gotten me kicked off the campaign and it's easy to understand why... it alienates people and makes them think you're nuts. Conspiracy theorists, right or wrong, do not help the cause of liberty. There are literally tons of things you can talk to people about to promote liberty that happen in plain sight, without having to resort to promoting conspiracy theories.

Locally, I've brought run of the mill republicans (including my parents) to "liberty" events... and they always commented that they weren't interesting in listening to people who looked and acted crazy especially with regard to those promoting conspiracy theories. Getting involved in the GOP, I've had much more success converting people by talking about real issues, not imagined ones. This also results in the average GOP voter not branding me as part of the lunatic liberty fringe... even though I'm working for the same cause. At the end of the day, I've had to leave the conspiracy crowd to their own devices and distance myself from them. I hope you do the same here at the Daily Paul.

sharkhearted's picture

Whoops. Repeat.

Sorry about that.

~Chris
Norfolk, VA

Time to INVESTIGATE the investigators of 9/11. PROSECUTE the prosecutors. EXPOSE the cover-up.

sharkhearted's picture

ITS BOTH!

False choice indeed.

Both A and B are important.

~Chris
Norfolk, VA

Time to INVESTIGATE the investigators of 9/11. PROSECUTE the prosecutors. EXPOSE the cover-up.

Oh help! Help! I'm losing my very soul in a false choice

Oh help! Help! I'm losing my very soul in a false choice argument.

I have to choose *either* to be effective or right.

So naturally, since I want to be effective, I have to give up my soul and being right. Right?

Oh help! help! Murder! Foulness! False choice dichotomy. Aristotelian brainwashing.

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.

just to intercede...

I gave you upvote 50, 2 downvotes since...
you really have pissed me off removing a post to your attention...
instead of replying you deleted and disallowed publishing of my post, "To Michael Nystrom" (google it).

Sad day!

Father - Husband - Son - Spirit - Consciousness

I hope you didn't donate to

I hope you didn't donate to him in the fund drive just a few months ago.

I mean, *technically* it isn't censorship, since there was no guarantee what you would get for your money in a written contract. You just expected ethical behavior, same as what you thought everyone gave to each other, and what you thought was here.

So technically, we're in the letter of the law. Of course, spiritually, .. Well, we don't want to go there. The demands of the spirit and love are a lot lot higher! Give us man made standards, arbitrary, and that can be redefined.

See - we have to argue about what decent behavior is on this site - because we don't know what it is already *wink*, *wink*.

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.

Did you try

private messaging him?

Defend Liberty!

I think it a sad day

when you demand someone to answer to you when that person has no obligation to you.
When you, klinker, run your own website, you can allow anything you want. I know we see each other as 'family', but the reality is that we are not. Michael owns this business and he has every right to toss out what he wishes. In your case, this saying is applicable: familiarity breeds contempt. Show some respect.

If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.
James Madison

Show some respect.?

I have posted numerous times for the world to Google..and you say show some respect? I always show respect here otherwise I wouldn't post period! Posting is respect! I love this site! I show it by posting and expressing my views and what I've learned! I'm glad Michael owns this business, but don't marginalize those who are ON YOUR SIDE! Remember Ron Paul! Remember! I Beg you!

Father - Husband - Son - Spirit - Consciousness

it truly is your virtual living room

... your house your rules ... the point about which battle is more effective could be said to trump the totally shocking evidence of hoaxed yet again ... I will grudgingly respect house rules with the parting wisdom :

the truth is becoming virally popular lately and that is also effective for the brave few who like Sherlock Holmes simply allow all evidence to speak for itself

prove you're really Michael Nystrom not some CIA virtual double - the martial law came awfully close . . .

i remember back in the early days of 911 truth ... people simply freaked out in your face if you tried to show them clear anomalous evidence

the world is waking up

the CFR Trilaterals are throwing a strategy called "The Overture" at us

watch it unfold and ask yourself ? what if Alex Jones is right about where it's all heading?

will we be worrying about effective then? or will we be black-bagged one night ?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0434409/

.

It is your site, Michael.

"He who has the gold makes the rules."

While I may be one of your most outlandish posters, I post my "Wierd Stuff" under "Wierd Stuff" in OFF TOPIC. I rarely get into the science of "911 conspiracy" because I do not feel that is necessary (for me, at least). I limit my discussion of 911 to facts I can prove, usually in the form of questions. Likewise, I have not delved into the recent conspiracies, such as Denver, Sandy Hook or Boston, because I feel these are "beside the point." I warned people at this site that this movement would die if it did not coalesce behind behind a "credible" candidate after the fiasco in Tampa. Even though I had many doubts about Gary Johnson, I had no doubts about the issues he was promoting regarding the NDAA, etc. Instead of doing this, most stubbornly clung to "write in Ron Paul," even though there was absolutely no way that stance would have much effect on election day. In December 2011, I predicted the NDAA would be used against people by no later than June, but more likely April 2013. Now, we have seen this done, indirectly, as "martial law" was temporarily declared in Boston. I saw the Goldwater movement die quickly after he was defeated by LBJ in 1964 and this movement is dying just as rapidly, partially because we still fail to coalesce behind a principled but credible leader. There are too many police state trappings today to "get a second chance"; and it pains me that the liberty movement is dying, not with a bang, but a whimper.

However, there are some promising signs that should give people hope. While neither Tim Scott nor Paul Broun are "one of us," both voted against the "Boehner budget sellout" and Justin Amash may well also become a senator. These are signs that the "Ron Paul" movement may well die but the liberty movement will go on.

I say A because B is

IMO, pushing the envelope. There is no need to go as far as the fake blood/actor scenario because people really did get hurt.
Boston wasn't Sandy Hook. TPTB learned that lesson quick. Like the Apostle Thomas, people wanted to 'see the marks' and put their hands in the wounds. Sandy Hook happened behind closed doors and all we were allowed to see was the external theater and all we were allowed to know was what we were told and often that didn't match up. But TPTB aren't Jesus, aren't divine and aren't even good, so trusting them without evidence should raise questions.
In Boston, bombs did go off, in the open where everyone could see. Michael, I don't presume to know what's in your head, but your question B seems to be saying - Do we really have to go as far as that? I say no. There are enough questions that need to be answered without going that far and that's when people get turned off. I wouldn't even click on those threads.
But I would point to Sandy Hook as a false flag to take our guns and Boston as a false flag to effect martial law.

If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.
James Madison

Screaming is never a good idea

And yelling "false flag" probably isn't effective.

These events are being used to convince the majority of citizens that the constitution is an anachronism.

Remember, the majority of citizens already believe we live in a democracy which is on its face a lie. The fact is our founders purposely did not set up a democracy. This is documented and provable yet...we live in a democracy.

If the events themselves stand I do not see how the constitution can be quickened. That enlightened document and it's principles are dead for all intense purposes and to be brought back to life the War on Terror narrative needs to be challenged.

I don't think letting the official narrative stand unchallenged will be effective.

To answer your question as stated I think "B" would still be more effective.

A) would be meet with "Hey dude, don't you know these are terrorist and we are not safe until we have the DHS everywhere too protect us! The govt is us, the govt are the good guys dude. Duh!"

B) would be meet with, "your crazy!" My response, "I am not, are you interested in why I would say such an outlandish thing?"

I will get sincere yes to the question at the end of B, they are the only people that we could possibly have a dialogue with with either of the options as you state them.

peAce

Liberty = Responsibility

One last remark...

please understand that one of the keys to our very survival lies in the yearning to understand why it is one says what they say...

if you turn this site into one of judgment based on majority rule, you lose the respect and admiration of those who were always on your side.

Peace and Love always. Your site is one-of-a-kind Michael...keep it that way.

Father - Husband - Son - Spirit - Consciousness

like greshams law, the bad

like greshams law, the bad posters will drive out the good.

is michael required to let his site turn to crap to respect the non existent rights of a vocal minority of morons to ruin the environment for everyone else?

this is private property m nys can make any rules he wants.

anarchy in the physical world leads to rule by the biggest guns and anarchy in cyber world leads to rule by the biggest mouths with the most time to waste and the greatest degree of mental disorder.

explain......

"is michael required to let his site turn to crap to respect the non existent rights of a vocal minority of morons to ruin the environment for everyone else?"

Number one...don't blanket remarks to those you do not know from Adam.

Number two...don't assume the site will turn to crap simply because you disagree with the elements being discussed.

Number three...I am not a vocal minority, or a moron, in fact I'm highly educated by the corrupt system we know as college.

Number four...I don't need rights to speak and share...deal with others like an adult and listen respectively and respectfully.

Number five...the way to ruin an environment is by telling all else to beware of those who may talk a different way, share different ways and open their hearts for you to crush with indignant and unjustified rants.

Father - Husband - Son - Spirit - Consciousness

nobody was talkin to u kojack

nobody was talkin to u kojack

Sacred Honor

Remember?

O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!

As a grown man, father of two...

Let me just say a few things in response to the OP of this thread. I mean no disrespect or defamation of character. I speak from the heart.

"This post is addressed to those who believe they have a divine right to discuss any and all conspiracy theories on the Daily Paul. After reading, I would appreciate it if you would answer the question at the bottom".

"Divine right"? Conspiracy Theories"? "Addressed to those"? I have been a follower of the DP for well over year and was awakened in 2008 by Alex Jones in a happenstance flick of the remote to the History channel covering the topic of 9/11. Let me tell you my answer to your question, which is a great one at that.

Firstly, it is obvious to anyone with open eyes that Boston crippled and defacated on the 4th amendment, to put it lightly.

Secondly, the questions you pose leave ME with only one choice. The second question, while I don't believe Hollywood should be used due to it's immediate ability to discriminate and label those who question the event as conspiratorial, is the proper question to ask.

Has anyone else grown sick of the constant "grand events" to the point you start to become numb to any reality that this could be feasible or true? The world is what we let it become. The world is what we allow it to present. Why are we putting up with so much propaganda and disease of our potential? Legislation just happens to conveniently spawn from these events curtailing our civil liberties and trampling our Constitution and we are conspiratorial for questioning the haste in passing that legislation? What a bunch of shit!

I am anti-theist so therefore I don't believe I have any divine right to discuss conspiracy. I am however a spiritual and peaceful person and therefore definitely have EVERY right to question and be skeptical of those who so aggressively seem to be seeking the renunciation of my livelihood and those of my children.

That is my right as a parent and human being!

This site will die if you purport that those who discuss "conspiracies" are any different than those who are either afraid to or are ignorant to them. How many conspiracies before we stop calling them so? Not everything is a conspiracy Michael...some are and have been proven in time to be TRUTHS!

Michael...we are all humanity...I am sick of people calling me conspiratorial and funny because I ask questions. Should I just sit back and be silent? I don't want to be complicit to another genocide, another culture lost in worthless amenities while we are plundered of any real wealth...I am speaking for you Michael...I am not crazy! I am in fact more awake than ever before and my children will know to question EVERYTHING!

PLEASE DECIDE FOR YOURSELVES!

Posts that got my posting privileges revoked

I’ll let you all decide if these posts were so bad as to revoke my posting privileges. Take care.

http://www.dailypaul.com/283785/to-michael-nystrom

http://www.dailypaul.com/283782/i-just-dont-give-a-hit-anymore

http://www.dailypaul.com/283186/missiles

Father - Husband - Son - Spirit - Consciousness

Why not be both?

be effectively right.

.D

can be done, my friend. can be done .o)

Here's my message to all my beloved r3VOL here:

please take your favorite bucket with you, whenever you go down the rabbithole. Be sure to take some candies, and leave some of your own homemade ones behind.

Then, once outside of the rabbithole, keep the sweets you like, but share the sweets you LOVE with complete strangers.

In time, they'll either forget, or be reminded. But, they'll always remember you for it. And, in time, they'll realize the best way to make the world a bit sweeter, isn't to necessarily track you down again, but to make their own sweets, and pay them forward.

soon enough, we'll all be living in sweet-o-rama, sans the re-trip back down the rabbithole.

cheers, love and peace to y'all.

keep da flames alive Michael; if down, please remember why you started this dive down the deep end of the pool to begin with. if the water's become stale, perhaps the filter's been clogged up and could use a refresher. I'm sure you'll think of something. a work in progress is always a work worth keeping, I'd say.o)

off I go, 'tis my weekend neuro-tug-o-lug-lug a go go.

Predictions in due Time...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGDisyWkIBM

"Let it not be said that no one cared, that no one objected once it's realized that our liberties and wealth are in jeopardy." - Dr. Ronald Ernest Paul

I think the site needs a filter and perhaps reformated

If this sight will survive a restructuring needs to take place.

I once owned a business that was very successful bring in just over ... Well lets just say it was a significant about of money. The cash in may cases was reinvested into the company for capital equipment. With the new equipment things started to expand. What was overlooked was the the investment in the overall company structure.

The business failed.

It failed because it got to threshold where I simply was stuck running it the same way and did not let go of the day to day responsibilities and lead as the visionary I was.

What I'm trying to say is, the Daily Paul needs to restructure its self if it will survive. Perhaps the whole concept of free for all needs to change. The posts and discussions don't need to die but need to take less of a center stage in my opinion.

The concept of preserving liberty needs to me augment and have more controls to the content being broadcast. Furthermore, there are massive egos that self promote, topics that are harming the genus of this site and divisive behavior that turns people away. I know some of you are thinking regulation and controls are bad but I have news for you 1 this isn't the government and the Daily Paul is not attempting to run your life 2. It's a private enterprise competing in the market place.

I don't know of any company or service that is run as a free for all.

I have read posts by Michael venting frustration over the issues I dealt with in my business just under a different context. If he doesn't have it in him or feels its preventing him from living his life, he deserves to sell it, step down or shut it off. Life is too short to be handcuffed. He has worked too hard to make this an awesome site. Show him some support.

So, what's the next step here? We have a lot of intelligent people on board. How about reading in between the lines of what Michaels saying in this post. If we continue with status quo we will fail.

How about acknowledging the boss mans concerns and helping him come to a solution on how it can be restructured so we can take this thing to the next level.

My 2 cents
DEX

For Freedom!
The World is my country, all mankind is my brethren, to do good is my religion.

Fishyculture is right, this is a false dichotomy

This is one of those cases where it should not be an either/or but a striving toward both.

Having said that, I appreciate everything Daily Paul has been to all of us over the years. Michael, some the best conversations I have had have been right here on DP. (Met some of our best friends here, too.) Would like to have been more supportive financially, or in other ways. I am also hopeful that you will stick around if you choose to have others run it temporarily. Not having you here to post would be a huge loss for all of us.

BTW-Good question at the end, thanks!

"Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern." ~~C.S. Lewis
Love won! Deliverance from Tyranny is on the way! Col. 2:13-15

I came to AJ via Ron Paul,

I came to AJ via Ron Paul, So it works both ways I agree with a previous poster that the principles are the most important thing. That will help keep people on track about what we are doing. It is also important that people are comparing notes between what government officials and the media say and what independent witnesses say and how the official narrative changes,

For the Sandy Hook event, initially both brothers were involved with Adam being the guy living in Hoboken, then it changed.. etc.

However, there should also be stricter standards of evidence and more scrutiny of our own theories. It would be evil to accuse a neighbor of a crime on circumstantial evidence, Avoiding calling people an idiot or a sheeple for not seeing things the same way is also important.

Vickie

deacon's picture

at times the 2 cannot

be mutually exclusive
they will go hand in hand
if one tells another their 1st amendment rights are gone
and the fed gov took it just like the rest,the ones informed are not going say "ok,that is a load of crap",they are going to ask WHY
and if the informer has no answer,they will not be believed
even with proof in hand most do not believe.
so lets suppose for a minute the bombing in boston didn't happen the way it was reported by the cops,fbi or the lamestream media
someone had to have looked to know why,and the others need informed
if nothing was done to fix the lies,then we lose out without even knowing why
what i have learned here is that nothing has happened the way it was reported,it was all based on lies and reported as truth by the news
here is a few lies pointed out so far(by none other than DP members)
the gulf of tonkin
the jfk assassination
waco
ruby ridge
the missing amendment to the const
the fed reserve
fiat money
the real reason for the war on drugs
prisoners used to build missiles
the many bases around the world for the US
bengazi
binladen dying yet again (3 times?)or is that the 4th time?
the UN agenda
the ww2 concentration camps on american soil(on here had relatives interred
HAARP
chemtrails(real or not)
now i ask this,what would the outcome have been without this knowledge if this fine site was not even here?
how many people would not have informed? thousands upon thousand? millions? (i ascribe to the broken glass theory)
can one have have liberty based on lies and fraud?
can we have peace without knowing why we as a nation do what we do?
can we have sound money with another pointing that out first?
I do not want to come across as nitpicker,but i do not believe in my heart we can truth on lies,or not knowing the difference in the 2
and this takes knowledge and wisdom
it takes others to point their deceptions and it takes others to see their versions of truth's,when in fact they are lies
i do not believe if truth is suppressed and lies abound that we can be truly free as nation,or even a world
deacon

If we deny truth before your very eyes,then the rest of what we have to say,is of little consequence

The heart of the issue

is expressed in the following two quotes:

“We live in a complex world where you’re going to have to have a level of security greater than you did back in the olden days, if you will. And our laws and our interpretation of the Constitution, I think, have to change.” - NYC Mayor Michael Bloomberg, April 2013

and

“The individual is handicapped by coming face to face with a conspiracy so monstrous he cannot believe it exists.” – FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover, August 1956

Bloomberg’s statement has become the reigning narrative in this country and most Americans not only accept but welcome that narrative as valid in the interest of their own safety. I know many open-minded, well-educated people who wholeheartedly embrace the notion of sacrificing freedom for security because ‘the world has changed’. Therefore, discussion of what is constitutional or unconstitutional is becoming increasingly irrelevant in the effort to protect and spread the concept of liberty.

The only thing that can shake most people out of their acceptance of this narrative is proof: evidence that the premise of the narrative is a lie and has no merit. The other question Michael asks is equally as important here: “So the government lies. This is well established. Is it news anymore?” Yes, it would be shocking news to millions and millions of individuals who have, as Hoover states, come ‘face to face with a conspiracy so monstrous he cannot believe it exists’. Hence documentation of the conspiracies themselves becomes a necessary component when discussing the Constitution, civil rights and liberty with ‘non-initiates’.

So to specifically answer the final question as posed: A and B go hand-in-hand if the direction of the DP is to be effective in promoting liberty to the masses of non-initiates. That said, there are many sites that discuss the conspiracy-of-the-day and few that focus on constitutional principles like the DP – and that aspect of DP should be preserved above all else.