-8 votes

Are you ready to shoot and kill another human being?

With the second amendment argument going on, most of us are up in arms about the government taking our rights away from arming and defending ourselves. However, one question for all of you here:

Are you ready to shoot and kill another person? He may be an armed intruder into your home. He may have intended to rob you, hurt you and/or your family. He may have intended to kill you or do a number of evil things. But are you ready to shot him and possibility kill him and live with the fact that you have send someone to hell (very likely) for the rest of your life?

Have you gone through the logical steps of defending oneself with a deadly firearm? Are you willing to go through the psychological consequence of killing somebody?

From a Christian perspective, I have heard a very famous and respected preacher (from the 19th century) said that a man of God should never take anyone's life. To those Christian brothers and sisters here, you may agree or disagree, but why and please support your argument with Scriptures.

For non-Christians, what would be your justification for taking a life or not taking a life?

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deacon's picture

from a christian perspective?

really,did not the god of the bible kill egyptians?
how about the other peoples in the lands,called the promised land?
from a non-christian perspective,to protect yourself has nothing to do with it,but i guess you can say one person is more important than another
from a personal perspective,one has the right to protect and defend them selves and the others who might need protected
deacon

If we deny truth before your very eyes,then the rest of what we have to say,is of little consequence

Cut the BS

"Christian perspective"

I'm tired of hearing all that mythological religious BS. This sight is for ADULTS, not people with child-minds. You might as well be discussing the philosophy of Sponge Bob.

Please go away and leave the important discussions for the grown-ups.

Thanks

Protip:

it's "site", not "sight".

You come off as no different than the Christian zealots who attempt to silence anything viewed as "sinful". If you're so tired of looking at Christian threads/comments, then why respond to them? Why even look at them? Why not just block those who talk about it, since it bothers you so much? Because you're just the other side of the coin, that's why.

Also, insulting people isn't much of an argument, in fact it makes you out to be the one with a "child mind".

A signature used to be here!

Albert Einstein

"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends." --Albert Einstein--

Phxarcher87's picture

Mark Bennett

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0vzGJAg1aw

"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" - Mark Twain

I once read a great quote

I once read a great quote that said, "I will never respect a man that does not love life enough to kill for it."

I agree with this, the psychological pain of taking another's life pales in comparison to the pain of having a loved one be victimized due to my inaction.

If you have a firarm, you need to make the decision right now that you are going to apply deadly force if necessary to defend yourself and train accordingly so when the time comes you can simply act. This is a decision that cannot be made when the situation happens.

Its kind of like birth control, it is a decision that needs to made rationally ahead of time not 3 seconds before the big moment...

We all share this eternally evolving present moment- The past and future only exist as inconsequential mental fabrications.

I just recently stumbled upon this link

http://www.anabaptists.org/history/anabaptists-during-revolu...

It gives me cause to wonder whether patriotic duty has been ingrained thru public education...the Amish in our area will not even kill in self-defense.

I wrote more about the subject here when Michael Nystrom asked what does Christian love look like for an enemy: http://www.dailypaul.com/comment/3048675

It is a subject I am rethinking. I am thinking that if Christians had abided by Christ's teachings, pehaps when the United States was primarily a "Christian Nation" that there would not have been so many to show up for war. I don't know. I don't have it all sorted out yet. But Jesus did say:

Matthew 26:52 KJV
Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Perhaps we have become a nation shedding blood because the Republic born of blood?

Again, I am having a hard time separating patriotism and patriotic duty and fighting. I guess maybe there is something along the sides of Just War that I have heard Ron Paul mention, but I have not yet looked into that teaching.

...

And then Jesus also

And then Jesus also said:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+22:35-37&ve...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
35 Then Jesus asked them, “When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?”
“Nothing,” they answered.
36 He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. 37 It is written: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors’[a]; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The sword was the personal defense weapon of the time. Jesus was saying this as he was preparing his followers for what life would be like after he left. Life for Christians would get decidedly more hostile and deadly for them unless they protected them self.

So what are YOUR responsibilities in this life? Ranked in order as a christian?

1) Love your neighbor?
Do you love your neighbor above your wife and children? Of course not. You have sworn to love & cherish your wife, and no less to the children under your care. How can you love or cherish them if you are dead because you refused to defend yourself?

So is it ...
1) family
2) neighbor / self

In either case, no where is loving the criminal above your family.

So then is defending yourself a sin? Certainly not. For the person that commits a crime is the one guilty, even the one that thinks about committing the crime is guilty of the sin. The target of that evil thought does not also sin merely by being the target of the evil thought or action, since it was not their action / thought. So your participation as a target in an act of sin, does not include you as a co-committer of the act. In other words, a rape victim is not guilty of rape (Arab law apparently believes contrary).

So is defending yourself from a physical attack a sin? No. You do not commit a sin in defending yourself from the violence & sin of another. Similarly, you do not commit a sin by protecting your loved ones or your neighbors from violence or sin.

Jewish law condemned to death a murder and Jesus did not come to abolish that law, but to fulfill or complete it.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+5:16-18&...

We have traced our responsibilities to preserve our life, innocent life, and the life of our family and our neighbors.

Lets look at the opposite of taking action, of co-mission, with inaction or o-mission. Is it a sin to not protect your family and to allow them to come to harm when you could have helped them? I would say yes, because that means you are not fulfilling the pledge to "love and to cherish" your spouse. Not taking action means that you are not following the example of Jesus, who freely gave up his life, that the church you me everyone would GAIN life. Jesus acted selflessly.

To not act out of a fear of sinning is to be selfishly considering YOUR needs and your value above that of your spouse and family. Are you modeling Christ's selfless example by selfishly standing by with your hands in your pockets refusing to get involved in a confrontation "lest you accidentally be getting involved tarnish your soul or your strict adherence to some set of ideals."

Which shows greater compassion to the downtrodden and oppressed? To allow oppression to occur on your watch, under your nose, in front of you, or to come to the aid of the oppressed?

From the parable of the Good Samaritan.... the Levite and the Priest, the highest examples of pious living, all passed by the wounded man lest they bring them self into some small measure of shame or inconvenience. Eventually a samaritan, a class of people that were hated and reviled by the Jews for their observance of a temple other than on the Temple mount, the samaritan helped the nearly dead man. Extending the example Jesus told of the caring behavior of the Samaritan, what would the Samaritan have done had he come upon the scene of the attack in progress? Would he have not had compassion on the victim and come to his aid?

Jason Robinson
Secretary
Republican Liberty Caucus of Idaho
http://www.IdahoLibertyCaucus.org

Thank you for your time in placing your words for me

I just have to say in reply to:

"To not act out of a fear of sinning is to be selfishly considering YOUR needs and your value above that of your spouse and family. Are you modeling Christ's selfless example by selfishly standing by with your hands in your pockets refusing to get involved in a confrontation "lest you accidentally be getting involved tarnish your soul or your strict adherence to some set of ideals"."

I'll ask my husband...

The words you have written for me is the way I have always thought. The new things I have stumbled upon with the Amish way of thinking has caused me to rethink. However, I have not yet come to any conclusions.

That being said, When Jesus went to the garden, he asked if any had their swords...

I also have to think that in all of the examples in the New Testament, not once do I see an account of any Christians doing any killing.

I do remember the accounts of stonings and I do not remember anyone fighting in self defense. I cannot think of any actions of self-defense other than actions of non violent self-preservation.

I don't know the answers. But these people: http://www.anabaptists.org/writings/excerpts/sos18.html have a different way of looking at self and or defense. There are many different accounts on that site. Even this one: "From the beginning of the movement, most Anabaptists did not question what Christ wanted them to do about war. They refused to fight. In 1530 Hans Herschberger, a young Swiss believer was called upon to defend his Protestant canton. Hans stoutly refused. "I would not fight against anyone, not even against the Turks," he declared. "

Jesus did not tell a story about a Good Smaritan killing robbers.

Perhaps one who trusts God leaves the answer of life or death in the Capable Hand of God? It seems there is more than one way to answer that question.

...

To clarify my post

It was just a question that I have been thinking and just wanted to throw it out there to see what kind of response I would receive.

I remember a story of a group of Western missionaries in China during the Boxer Rebellion. They were surrounded by the bandits that wanted to kill them. They were armed and ready to shoot to protect themselves. The men surrounded the women and children. As the rebel approached, the leader of the missionaries fired a shot at the rebel leader's horse and he felt from the horse. He told them that we have the ability to shoot you, but we choose not to because of God. So they laid down their weapons. The rebels were amazed but eventually they closed in and killed everyone of them.

So, I guess if you are not a Christian, there's no reason for you not to shoot and kill another person especially in self defense situations. But for Christians, I believe that "self defense" that we commonly believe in, may not be valid as we think it is.

After all God is in control. If He allows the evil to befall us, wouldn't He have the power to protect us? And even if He doesn't protect us, will we turn against His will in such a case?

I read somehere that the

I read somehere that the original Ten Commandments stated "Thou shall not murder" instead of "Thou shall not kill". The statment was later revised by governments to help subdue the population.

http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?read=31043

We all share this eternally evolving present moment- The past and future only exist as inconsequential mental fabrications.

Send Someone To Hell?

Are you for real or are you on something?

skippy

deacon's picture

send someone to hell

for the rest of your lives !!! they must get out upon your death
lol
deacon

If we deny truth before your very eyes,then the rest of what we have to say,is of little consequence

It has always been my way to

It has always been my way to never be the aggressor. But if you engage me with violence, I will defend myself to any extend needed and I am capable of. Weather this is hand fighting, pulling a knife, or a gun, no matter what the situation is and how it originated, I will decided how far to go when defending myself and the only justification needed is that I was engaged first.

I have had 2 surgeries with a plate still remaining in my head, and have lived for 10 years (almost half) of my life with debilitating headaches because someone initiated violence against me, on multiple occasions. But I was told the authorities would take care of it, they knew about it and would handle it. Well they didn't, and because I didn't defend myself I am the one suffering. So if more justification is needed your welcome to feel a tiny bump above my right eye, and I can show you a bag that contains a few more that were removed. Or you can try the assorted cocktail of drugs I have tried over the years for the pain, causing more problems than they fixed.

So while it may be hard to take another life, when your hesitating with your finger on the trigger think about the possible outcomes, think about the harm that could come to you, your family/friends, or your property, and remember you didn't choose to act in aggression. Would you rather be standing there over a dead body or be the dead body lying there. I know what my choice will be, because I also know you cant go back and do it over no matter how many times it plays out in your head.

Seriously?

"Have you gone through the logical steps of defending oneself with a deadly firearm? Are you willing to go through the psychological consequence of killing somebody?"

WTF. Are you saying people should somehow preemptively prepare themselves for any psychological consequences of self defense, so that they are capable of self defense? Are you saying reasons for self preservation differ for different religions? What kind of mind trip is this?

Big down vote for this post. If there is something you're trying to get at of any value, I suggest a revision.

robot999's picture

I take exception to your comment:

"...you have sent someone to hell..." Libertarianism and plain common sense dictates that people must take responsibility for their OWN actions. If they attack me, i will defend. At the point they initiate violence against me (or an innocent near me) I will take lethal action. The outcome of that for the attacker is out of my hands.

"Government is the entertainment division of the military-industrial complex". - Frank Zappa

Exactly. the spiritual state

Exactly. the spiritual state of someone else is of no concern to you. You cannot know it, you cannot judge it. It is entirely between them and God.

You cannot condemn anyone to Hell, unless you pretend to be all knowing and all powerful, which, if you do claim this, I think you need to go down to south america somewhere and drink some coolaid. By yourself.

Jason Robinson
Secretary
Republican Liberty Caucus of Idaho
http://www.IdahoLibertyCaucus.org

lol, sorry to be a troll, but I don't think any one is ready to

"shot" and kill anyone. I think many people on the DP are ready to SHOOT and kill anyone who harms them or their family.

I guess the mods don't edit grammar or misspelling

But if they think a title is 'gimmicky' they will.

*Shoot

Not shot. Yes.
Non-Christian justification (I'm deist): Clear and present danger. In fact, it should be such a siutation with any Christian as well.

I believe in the NON-AGGRESSION principle.

I will not initiate violence. I will defend myself, and don't feel I need to offer any sort of explanation or justification for defending myself.

Love or fear? Chose again with every breath.

"unconditional nonviolence"

I found this forum post a while ago and bookmarked it. I need to reread it but I think you'll find this relates to your topic - at least the 19th century preacher. It's an in-depth criticism of the Christian based idea of "unconditional nonviolence." Its heavy on etymology and focuses around Matthew 5:38-48.

http://www.fundamentalsoffreedom.com/fswforum/index.php?topi...

Other interesting reading:

A Change of Allegiance. A modern (90s) look at Christian conscientious objectors.

http://www.amazon.com/Change-Allegiance-Dean-Taylor/dp/09818...

On Killing. A non-Christian look at the psychology of killing.

http://www.amazon.com/On-Killing-Psychological-Learning-Soci...

Happy reading!

thank you

For your input. I haven't read them yet, but I would suggest that the basis for our unconditional non-violence is that God is in absolute control of every circumstances in our lives, and everything happened is for our benefit.

God may be in absolute

God may be in absolute control, but God allows free will. Thus the great paradox of predestination. In allowing free will, sin entered the world through Adam & Eve. And sin continues to exist in the world. God does not cause sin, but rather allows it to continue to exist in order to demonstrate man's need for salvation from sin through Jesus, the sinless.

God does not cause a rapist to initiate rape, but allows it to happen and can if he so chooses, redeem the results to His glory in a multitude of ways. Such as by calling the rapist to repentance, by giving the victim the fortitude to survive and persevere through the situation, by demonstrating His love and compassion to the victim through others that act as His hands & feet, etc etc.

Jason Robinson
Secretary
Republican Liberty Caucus of Idaho
http://www.IdahoLibertyCaucus.org

Very well stated

So what is your conclusion?

I am not concerned but the other party's free will decision. I will be judged on my own decision and my own free will.

I have taken another humans

I have taken another humans life. It is something that changes you. I live with certain regrets by how and why I had taken those lives, because of this war, but I would not hesititate to defend myself from intruders. I carry an XD40SC everywhere I go. I will not be a victim and will protect those I cherish and love. It's not an easy thing to live with, taking the life of another, but you DO get to live through it. That's the key.

---------------------------------
Finally HOME! For Good!
---------------------------------
I am an Oath Keeper
I am an Agnostic
I am a father and I want my children to know true freedom in their lifetime.

Thank you for sharing.

I have not taken another's life but my father had multiple times during war in a close and personal way. Before he died he shared how it changed him.

First it made him agressive, he called it being at a base level like an animal. He said he was changed permanently but had two choices to make: 1. bottle it and remain agressive and probably self-destruct or 2. serve others and use his strength to be compassionate. He chose #2 and gave to community, to people, of himself. He was caring, gentle, kind and also strong. He died happy.

But there was a "switch" that he had. If he ever sensed his family or his person was being threatened you saw something change. In his body language, stance, his face, his eyes. He was containing a triggered violence within him and he was very capable physically so you took it seriously. It was his demon and he conquered it, but it was also on-call.

Peace.

"One resists the invasion of armies; one does not resist the invasion of ideas" Victor Hugo

Thank you for your service.

I am glad you are "Finally HOME! For Good!" and here at the DP as well!

I think only a sociopath or

I think only a sociopath or psychotic person could do it and feel nothing. Thank you for your service.

Are you prepared to

live with yourself after an incident where your inability to use deadly force to defend your family resulted in the loss of a loved one?