41 votes

I changed my name on the DP!

Hey you guys, this formerly was GO LIBERTY 2012. But ever since Proud American First posted his video about Muslims, I formerly decided to come out.

You guys don't know how much y'all mean to me. Words cannot express all the gratitude and thanks I give to all of you wonderful, tolerant liberty lovers. I used to be hesitant about being in the liberty movement for my religious beliefs, but it is clear to me now that you guys accept me for who I am and what I think, and Nobody can value that more than me in these rough times!

I have learned nearly EVERYTHING I KNOW about libertarianism from this site. Before this site, I was just an apathetic, laid back teen. Now I read Rothbard, Hazlitt, and Bastiat LIKE A BOSS (and I'm still pretty chill(:).

But nonetheless, I feel that the scourge of hatred and fear mongering is spreading even to libertarians, as what apparently is the top libertarian site, personalliberty.com, derided Islam as a cult and spread the Neo-Con myths further, and all the comments continually deride Islam as well, which horrifies me.

So, it is my personal goal not only to dispel the myths of Islam in a non-proselytizing manner, but to also spread the inherent libertarian virtues of Islam to uninformed Muslims.

So, if you don't mind, could you please help me with some suggestions on how I could spread both the truth about Islam and its libertarian principles?

Also add me on twitter at TheLibertarianMuslim

Thank you very much my brothers and sisters in liberty!

Peace and Love



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How would you define

How would you define speciation or macro-evolution?

Speciation...

"Speciation is the evolutionary process by which new biological species arise"

"Macroevolution is evolution on a scale of separated gene pools. Macroevolutionary studies focus on change that occurs at or above the level of species,"

I emphasize the term 'above', because speciation and macro-evolution are not the same thing. Speciation happens without macro-evolution with for example, mules, and ligers. The criteria for defining a species is debated, as it's not a perfect classification system. The man-made classification system of 'species' does not correspond to what creationists would consider biblical 'kinds' of animals, though there might be some overlap where a distinction in 'kinds' and 'species' might meet. The existence of a new species like a mule, liger, or slightly more resistant bacterium does not justify the idea that something like a horse, tiger, or bacterium could produce a completely different kind of animal like a whale.

Now without definitions we

Now without definitions we can't really move forward, so would you care to give a definition of speciation that is consistent with your biblical worldview?

Isn't the eye a good example of macro-evolution?

I don't have a problem with the way I've already ...

I don't have a problem with the way I've already generally defined it. Species is a more specific classification than what the bible would call 'kinds'. The bible doesn't go into detail on biological classification, so at some point I would be making judgements just like everyone else, subject to disagreement, debate, and presuppositional biases. The definition of species isn't entirely consistent with a macro-evolutionary world view, which is why we have things like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species_problem To avoid a double standard, you ought to provide a definition of species which doesn't conflict with your world view. Also, you might as well explain abiogenesis, since the non-theistic worldview's evolution couldn't get started without it. It might be helpful if you would also account for the preconditions of intelligibility.

I've only ever seen examples of micro-evolution with the eye. One guy at my university went on a very intricate rant full of facts in an attempt to show how the changes seen in an eye proved macro-evolution, and when the teacher asked if his examples were of micro or macro evolution, he paused and had to admit they were micro. It was as if all of his pomp was deflated with a single question.

But really this is probably not the best thread for this topic. I don't want our discussion to take it over. If you want more discussion on this topic, you could e-mail me or something. I think you haven't responded to some of our other discussion, so we could pick that up as well if you wish.

The bible does not contain

The bible does not contain the necessary definitions because it is not a scientific book, it is a religious one. The two, in general, are mutually exclusive. It may contain insights into human nature and the mind but it doesn't claim to, and doesn't contain scientific facts.

Just read the sections on Wikipedia:

Abiogenesis
Observed Instances of Speciation
Irreducible Complexity

I have seen these arguments before and they have even been presented in court (2005 I think) as support for creationism but were dismissed.

The Wikipedia articles are well referenced and go far beyond what I could tell you.

Watch Richard Dawkins' documentary 'Growing Up in the Universe' too.
Dawkins of course you must have heard of, but he is talking to children so is not as abrasive as he might normally be.

Also watch the documentary 'Why I am no longer a Christian'

If you have any problems or questions about the material you can get back to me. The above probably address all previous conversations.

It is a lot of stuff, but it is pretty entertaining (other than the wikis) so you can do it over the weekend.

so what.

I agree that the Bible isn't a science book, it's mostly a history book. But science and religion are not mutually exclusive. I think it's category error to say that they have such a direct correlation that they could be mutually exclusive. It would be helpful to specify which branches of science you speak of. Some people misapply science beyond its intended scope, resulting in scientism of an almost cult-like nature: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientism. and some misapply experimental science methodology into historical science realms which is another problem. Science books don't contain adequate definitions of species either, which is why the species problem I linked earlier exists and why debate and revisions are constantly being made, so I don't see where you think you've gotten with your point. The arguments against macro-evolution are not contingent upon a precise definition of species since species is at a more specific level, and the arguments have to do with the creation of genetic information. Major changes in life forms are suggested at all levels of taxonomic rank by macro-evolution, from non-life to all life forms and all taxonomic ranks. Pointing out changes at only one of the most specific ranks doesn't justify belief in changes at the most general ranks. You need to do better than that. The idea behind a rejection of macro-evolution is that micro-evolution can only take changes so far. Instead of focusing on the edges of where both sides acknowledge changes, why not deal with the argument head on and demonstrate major genetic changes? Courts also regularly seem to dismiss the constitution, so I don't see what a single judges opinion has to do with this. I don't see how the details of previous conversations were addressed either. Regarding the "why I'm no longer a christian" thing, are you talking about the one with the former pentecostal? Not an impressive documentary.

.

oops.. double post

Yeah I hate it whenever people proselytize...

...Muslim or not.

I completely agree with you 100%

I hope to dispel the myths propagated by neocons not tell people the end is coming!

I am a proud libertarian Muslim.

Here are some awesome Islamic Libertarian links:

http://minaret.org

http://muslims4liberty.com

AND TO GET OFF THE NEOCON DRIVEL ABOUT MUSLIMS: http://loonwatch.com

Did you know that there is a new Religion Forum?

You might want to post a thread there to give all of us some insight about your faith. Most people here really don't care what religion another person is and will respect it, as long as it isn't being pushed as the correct way for everyone to worship, or telling anyone without any particular faith that they must believe what you believe or be doomed.

Personally, I find learning about different faiths to be interesting. I enjoy learning about philosophies of other religions and don't see any of them as a threat to my own faith. Rather, it enhances faith for me, as I see different aspects of God in each culture.

Glad you "came out" and look forward to learning what you are willing to teach.

“It is the food which you furnish to your mind that determines the whole character of your life.”
―Emmet Fox

double standard

"as long as it isn't being pushed as the correct way for everyone to worship, or telling anyone without any particular faith that they must believe what you believe or be doomed."

This is an example of people pushing their morality or belief system upon someone else. They think it's wrong for people to say that their religion is true in an objective sense(i.e. saying a theological system, which describes what happens to non-adherents of said theological system, is true and would apply to everyone), yet the people you describe apply their beliefs and system of morality to everyone in the same way. They object to people promoting beliefs which pertain to them, yet they promote beliefs pertaining to the other. It's a double standard with a pretended neutrality. I'm not saying you are doing this, because you seemed to reference "Most people here" rather than yourself. I'm not sure that most people here are like that, but there are a number.

I'll definitely post new articles when I find the time...

...and do the research! I hate ellipses or whatever the triple period thing is!

Anyway, my next article hopefully will be about the NAP and Islam in depth.

But if you have any suggestions or questions please do ask and I'll look into it.

Keep in mind that I am still learning and finding my own path. I'm no imam or truly authoritaitve source on many issues but I will cite my findings to make it credible.

I am a proud libertarian Muslim.

Here are some awesome Islamic Libertarian links:

http://minaret.org

http://muslims4liberty.com

AND TO GET OFF THE NEOCON DRIVEL ABOUT MUSLIMS: http://loonwatch.com

You are what you are for a reason. Most of us are the same way.

It is enough to share the reason with us, if you choose. It isn't necessary to be an authority. It's more about what and how you apply it to your life and how it helps you to help everyone else in our cause for liberty.

Had to edit my comment to delete the word "why". The why should be because your particular faith (or lack of faith) works best for you.

“It is the food which you furnish to your mind that determines the whole character of your life.”
―Emmet Fox

Ralph Hornsby and Liberty Poet

I added you guys!

By the way, is Liberty Poet Legalize Liberty?

He has great poems!

I am a proud libertarian Muslim.

Here are some awesome Islamic Libertarian links:

http://minaret.org

http://muslims4liberty.com

AND TO GET OFF THE NEOCON DRIVEL ABOUT MUSLIMS: http://loonwatch.com

Religion of all kinds are a big part of the problem

One day (God willing, lol) people will begin to see that religion, much like the federal reserve system and government itself, is man-made and created to CONTROL and CONFUSE rational people.

No free thinking, rational person would ever come up with such nonsense as an explanation for human exsistence. No, I don't know how we got here and I don't know what happens when we die...but I reject completely virgins giving birth and remaining virgins, men being beaten to death and buried for 3 days and magically coming back to life, and an invisible skydaddy looking over us all. Yeah, call ME crazy. lol.

you are doing a back-door kind of . . .

proselyting, non-religionist or should I say rationalist.

*wink*

But I appreciate most of what you have to say, and I appreciate your right to say what you just said.

As long as you realize that you, too, are crazy. :)

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

What's up with the second part

"men being beaten to death..."

I have never heard of that before!

I am a proud libertarian Muslim.

Here are some awesome Islamic Libertarian links:

http://minaret.org

http://muslims4liberty.com

AND TO GET OFF THE NEOCON DRIVEL ABOUT MUSLIMS: http://loonwatch.com

I should have said a "man" being beaten to death...

you know...Buddy J?

Oh right!

Duh! lol

I am a proud libertarian Muslim.

Here are some awesome Islamic Libertarian links:

http://minaret.org

http://muslims4liberty.com

AND TO GET OFF THE NEOCON DRIVEL ABOUT MUSLIMS: http://loonwatch.com

Just keep being a voice for reason,

and reasonable people will listen.

Thanks fellow Canuck!

I'm a dual Canadian-American citizen.

I am a proud libertarian Muslim.

Here are some awesome Islamic Libertarian links:

http://minaret.org

http://muslims4liberty.com

AND TO GET OFF THE NEOCON DRIVEL ABOUT MUSLIMS: http://loonwatch.com

I guess you have

two nations to save then :)

Same human problems, different solutions.

The Commercial Heritage of Islam

http://www.dailypaul.com/159529/the-commercial-heritage-and-...

Free includes debt-free!

Congratulations, or

Congratulations, or whatever... but please never again use that phrase, "like a boss". It's hard to take anyone serious after reading that. Thank you.

Sorry that I used that on my twitter then

I don't know how to put a picture on there. It won't let me.

I am a proud libertarian Muslim.

Here are some awesome Islamic Libertarian links:

http://minaret.org

http://muslims4liberty.com

AND TO GET OFF THE NEOCON DRIVEL ABOUT MUSLIMS: http://loonwatch.com

By the way...

I still have only the most respect for Proud American First and all that he has done.

I hope we have no beef bro!

Peace and Love

I am a proud libertarian Muslim.

Here are some awesome Islamic Libertarian links:

http://minaret.org

http://muslims4liberty.com

AND TO GET OFF THE NEOCON DRIVEL ABOUT MUSLIMS: http://loonwatch.com

could you

explaon to me the Muslim situation in Syria? Thank you.

As far as I understand it...

...it isn't an issue about Islam at all. Sectarian strife is only being promoted by the media and extremist groups like the al-Nusra front who are funded by Saudi Arabia and Qatar, and indirectly, or who knows maybe directly, by the US. Alawite Shias have ruled over Syria for some time, but the government structure was under the principles of Ba'athism, which is a secular, nationalist movement, so I really don't know if Islam really has anything to do with the underlying tensions in the conflict.

I am a proud libertarian Muslim.

Here are some awesome Islamic Libertarian links:

http://minaret.org

http://muslims4liberty.com

AND TO GET OFF THE NEOCON DRIVEL ABOUT MUSLIMS: http://loonwatch.com

Arab Spring is AKA Islam Spring

It is about Islam, and I suggest you look into it.

Economic prosperity, political freedom and civil liberties.

The Syrian regime, led by al-Assad, launched a violent crackdown in 2011 on activists demanding more economic prosperity, political freedom and civil liberties. This sparked a nationwide uprising and eventually a civil war with armed rebels.

Are you a Muslim?

I looked at your comment on Shariah financing and it seems that you are really ardent in defending Islam.

Either way peace be upon you and may many more be accepting like you and others here!

Only through tolerance can our movement truly advance and y'all make me proud to be a part of it!

I am a proud libertarian Muslim.

Here are some awesome Islamic Libertarian links:

http://minaret.org

http://muslims4liberty.com

AND TO GET OFF THE NEOCON DRIVEL ABOUT MUSLIMS: http://loonwatch.com