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Superstition - What the Bible says:

(A continuation of discussion from a different thread, which seems to me should be in it's own thread).

Superstition

It is not true that the Bible (must?!) say witchcraft is a sin because ‘it has power’. The Bible says that drinking yourself silly or poisoning yourself are also sins, and there isn't anything in them. Superstition, self-delusion, lying or being lied to are other equally wrong things like witchcraft is wrong.

For example idolatry is wrong. But the Bible does not say there is anything to idolatry. It says men worship dumb idols that don’t do anything instead of God. Revelation 9:20 “And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: 21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.” Other similar verses on idolatry, but not all: Isaiah 44:9-20, Jonah 2:8, Jeremiah 11:12, Isaiah 45:20, Jeremiah 10:3-16, Jeremiah 10:15, Psalm 115:1-18, 1 Corinthians 12:2, Isaiah 2:6-22, Deuteronomy 27:15, Micah 5:13, Acts 17:29, Daniel 5:23. Jeremiah 16:20 “Shall a man make gods unto himself, and they are no gods?”

The Bible also says that there is spiritual idolatry, and it is possible to be an idolater without worshiping literal idols. For instance Ezekiel 14 – quoted in full below, says of idols that men have set them up in their hearts. Likewise, the Bible says that witchcraft is as the sin of rebellion - 1 Samuel 15:23, and it seems to me that it is likewise possible to be committing witchcraft without literally dancing around like a voodoo witchdoctor or thinking you are being like a witch – even though in the heart and spirit you are – witchcraft is as the sin of rebellion; and men have set up idols in their heart.

Besides the grossest literal idols, a lot of what is called witchcraft actually involves idols too – charms, beliefs in special power spots or objects, or words spoken a certain way to cast spells supernaturally, or sear stones, etc etc, are all examples of dumb idols that don’t do anything. Idolatry.

Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen. - (1 John 5:21)

Ezekiel 14
1 Then came certain of the elders of Israel unto me, and sat before me. 2And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 3Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their heart, and put the stumblingblock of their iniquity before their face: should I be inquired of at all by them? 4Therefore speak unto them, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Every man of the house of Israel that setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet; I the LORD will answer him that cometh according to the multitude of his idols; 5That I may take the house of Israel in their own heart, because they are all estranged from me through their idols.



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I agree with what you are saying

and it's a very good point but idol worship is not limited to false gods and/or false worship. It is also simply making any image to represent GOD. Israel made the Golden Calf to represent GOD himself and they not only worshiped it falsely but they actually called it by GODs Name. Exodus 32:5

This of course in direct violation of the 2nd Commandment "You shall not make for yourself a carved image or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth..." Exodus 20:4 NKJV And:"You shall not make anything to be with me..." Exodus 20:23

If you look at all the people who go to church on Easter and bow before an image of a man on a cross and call that image their savior it is clear that Christianity is keeping with that tradition of idolatry and false worship. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The way I see it is if you have an image of your god then you don't know GOD.

Idols of the heart - including rationalizing,vs Faith& the Bible

Peter 1:20-21
20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

2 Timothy 3:16
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God[a] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

I wrote the above to encourage others not to despise the Holy Bible, but to use it, and not to lean on their own understanding, in response to ""I'm not big on chapter and verse, for they of man and not the Father", etc.

I am not writing my posts for one person, but for any who want to read them. Since one person is calling down his own judgement and implying right now, I am not speaking to him at the present. But I will always respond to error. But it isn't a conversation, and may not be for that person.

"The reason God calls something sin is because in the end, and often in the act itself ( whichever, choose any ) it is HARMFUL to both the one who does it, to others, and to God."

That may ben the effect of many sins, but where does God say that is what sin is?

That sounds a lot like leaning on your own understanding, instead of following God werever he is. If Christianity is by faith from first to last, then most people will that not believing Jesus Christ is not a sin, and yet that is the very first and worst sin according to Romans 1.

It is by faith, not rationalizing. And that includes many sins, such
as sexually immorality. In fact, Romans 1 is a lot about people who
professing themselves wise, became fools. Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof.

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.

Romans 1 and Idols of the heart

Proverbs 14:12 There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death.

Full passage from Romans 1 posted below. I like to encourage people to read the Bible themselves, and to make sure things are posted in context. Here, I emphasized a few lines from Romans 1 in asking if God hating and self justification is the worst sin of all, that leads to all the others shown in Romans 1. You'll notice Romans 1 also has to do with idols too, like the Ezekiel passage quoted in the original post.

Romans 1
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.

re - IDolatry,

Wisdom 14:26-28, Good News Translation (GNT)

26 harassment of innocent people, ingratitude, moral decay, sexual perversion, broken marriages, adultery, and immorality. 27 The worship of idols, whose names should never be spoken, is the beginning and the end, the cause and the result of every evil. 28 People who worship them lose control of themselves in ecstasy, or pass off lies as prophecies, or live wickedly, or break their word without hesitation.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=wisdom%2014:26-2...

we find IDolatry to be a root/branch or bunch of immoralities, the most obvious form of Superstition, fetish, irrational reverence of the ineffectual.

sounds - related - IDol, IDle, IDea, IDeal, IDeology, etc.

Forgot to include

Forgot to include covetousness in the original post, which I meant to.

Colossians 3:5
5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.

Pope mentions Golden Calf.

+1. The Pope mentioned the Golden Calf yesterday =
BBC News - "Pope Francis hits out at global 'cult of money'" -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22551125

The reason God calls something sin...

Is because in the end, and often in the act itself ( whichever, choose any ) it is HARMFUL to both the one who does it, to others, and to God ( via a disconnected relationship with ). Sin is not to be avoided because God said so alone, but because it will HURT YOU IN THE LONG RUN personally , and God who created you, who sustains your very breath, doesn't want you to hurt you, it hurts God to see his child suffer in any manner.
Also it's important to know from whence sin came into being: it came into being from a choice to keep it alive rather than to deny it and to trust God. Lucifer, who was created sinless, grew jealous of one whom he thought he was an equal with, one who it turns out was in fact not an equal with him at all, but one who is an equal with the Father. Because of his jealousy, Lucifer harbored sin within himself, a resentment, a lie, that he was being somehow mistreated, that he wasn't receiving his due, that Gods love was unfair because God had meetings with the one but not with him. Did not that other one stand on the right hand of the throne of God as he, Lucifer stood upon the left, did they not have the same ministry to direct the praises of creation towards the Father ? Lucifer cherished his sin, his self deception, his lie........and the rest is as they say history in the making.

God Bless
Stēkō

Drew, by the very grace of GOD through the blood of Christ Jesus.
"there shall come after us men whom shall garner great wealth using our system, and having done so shall seek to slam the door of prosperity behind them." George Washington

Actually, sin is to be

Actually, sin is to be avoided because God said so alone. We find out that it makes sense later, but that doesn't come first.

Man has an infinite capability to self justify and rationalize, but wanting to follow what God says in the Holy Bible, and praying about it tends to lead to more wisdom later. But putting our rationality before what the Lord says is putting something before God - which is the type of idols in the heart one of the passages in the original post is talking about.

Isaiah 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

Proverbs 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.

I find wanting to do what I

I find wanting to do what I want or rationalize instead of what God says has been one of the primary idols in my life I've had to deal with.

Proverbs 3:5-6
5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.

We are either justified by faith,

But that faith must be like Abraham's, a faith of follow throughs. For Abraham was counted as righteous by faith, Issac by faith, Jacob by faith, Noe by faith, Moses by faith. David by faith, all by faith, for without faith it is impossible to please God.
Faith without the action faith produces is dead. For we would not know sin save for the law, for what is sin but a transgression of the law. What shall we say then, shall we sin willfully, so as to serve it once again, God forbid.
Who then shall save us from this state of corruption, our inheritance of sin from Adam; shall not He who created, came down as us, sinless, self sacrificed once for all, raised up man, now upon the Throne of God, this Jesus our Lord. Shall we not then have him the finisher and author both our faith, or shall we by reason of doubt leave halfway off?
I was not speaking milk, and you being meat saw this; this gospel is neither of men, but of Christ and him crucified.

So in all things, imagine the river wide, and step your feet in first to cross over dry.
First we see as through a fog, then more clearly, until that day when face to face with glory we see clearly.

What shall we say then, is the law nailed to a tree, I say he was and lives again. But if there is now no law, what need have men for Jesus, being as his manner of death shall be put to such a waste? And since there is no more law, then there is no more grace, for grace was but for the transgression of the law and for nothing else. See then thou man, that at present without law, without grace, all that remains is sin and his wage, death. Sin is still, grace is still, the law is still, by faith accomplished, here a little, there a little, line upon line, precept upon precept, until perfection come.
Rather I say to you, that which passed away was the law of that Tent that pointed towards a greater one that itself, and when the curtain was torn at hagia hagion from top to end by no human hand, even then the old passed unto the new. And even Daniel, proved by a stone at Ur, Atexerxes gave command and rebuilt they Jerusalem, and to the day messiah was cut off just as God spoke through the prophets.

I'm not big on chapter and verse, for they of man and not the Father, but God so willing the Spirit of him that abides in me can bring all things into remberence, upon my need. For his arm is not short that He can't reach me, nor is He a man that He should lie. No, His word shall not return unto himself void, but shall accomplish His good purpose.

Therefor I shall press on towards the prize of my highest calling from God through Christ Jesus.

God Bless
Stēkō

Drew, by the very grace of GOD through the blood of Christ Jesus.
"there shall come after us men whom shall garner great wealth using our system, and having done so shall seek to slam the door of prosperity behind them." George Washington

So if God clearly says not to

So if God clearly says not to do something in the Bible, and someone justifies it away, it isn't faith. Your reasoning becomes an idol. By definition, faith is following God wherever he is, not following your own reasoning. For we walk by faith, not by sight. 2 CORINTHIANS 5:7.

Proverbs 3:5-6
5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. 6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

1 John 1:6-
6If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

The correct way to seek the Lord is to ask forgiveness of the sin, not to say we didn't sin.

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.

Yes.

As in it is the opposite of faith, for we sin because we serve an appetite within ourselves rather than by Faith depending upon the Holy Spirit to guide us past the temptation into the promise " the Lord is a strong tower the righteous run into, and they are saved". Through Faith we lay hold of the power of the promise, in that the temptation arises and rather than fall into it and thusly sin, we rather call upon the Name of Jesus, who is able to save. The action FAITH is the prayer for help, the result is the FAITH builder Jesus doing what we can not do naturally, that is to both deliver from sins call and from sins penalty.
Thusly: the law says thous shalt not have any idols, nor any graven image of any thing above the earth, upon the earth or under the sea as to WORSHIP them. You stated insightfully that " idols " can be ANYTHING we serve over serving God: and the Law leads one to that conclusion.
But there was no perfection found in the form of the law, that is in obeying law for the sake of the law. For had there been salvation in the law, then no need the Salvation through the precious blood of the Lamb, even our Savior Jesus Christ. For the Israelites missed to point of the message God gave them on several fronts. Firstly, the sanctuary law, that of the sacrifice for sin by blood of animals was a typology that pointed towards their savior, but they thought the law was the savior and therefore neglected to recognize that they themselves were in need of as savior as much as the Gentiles were. Law doesn't save, but those who keep it through FAITH in Jesus ate already saved by faith, the obiedence is merely a fruit of the salvation, a proof if you will receive it of the changed nature of the heart within they who are saved through Faith and changed through Faith, all by the working of the Spirit in Jesus Christ. Secondly, the Isralites misunderstood scripture as to the method, or heart of the Kingdom of God. Thinking they were already justified through DNA by Abraham, when it is through the DNA of FAITH like that of Abrahams that we are saved: they expected Gods kingdom to be their present earthly kingdom, as in the messiah would simply fill an earthly throne; but Gods kingdom does not compromise with mans, it is separated by Faith, removed from sin and can not abide the prescense of sin, no earthly throne made of men is fit for the King of Glory.
So yes, sin is the absence of faith.

God Bless
Stēkō Parrēsia

Drew, by the very grace of GOD through the blood of Christ Jesus.
"there shall come after us men whom shall garner great wealth using our system, and having done so shall seek to slam the door of prosperity behind them." George Washington

"I'm not big on chapter and

"I'm not big on chapter and verse,"

The Holy Bible says things as God means them to be said. It is perfect - and part of the meaning of Holy.

It takes a certain pride of men to try to reword the Holy Bible into their own words to teach others, as if they could teach or word it better than God himself.

God knows what he is doing, and his words will have the effect He meant them to have. I'd rather see people post more Bible passages and less of themselves. Yourself isn't the gospel or the Word of God. Amen.

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.

deacon's picture

are you really arguing

over the chapter/verse in the bible?
deacon

If we deny truth before your very eyes,then the rest of what we have to say,is of little consequence

Meaning, I'm not good at memorizing

But nearly every word in that post is scripture right out of Gods word alone. If you truly knew Gods word, you would already know that. In fact " I'm not big on chapter and verse " are the ONLY non-scripture originated words in my post. That is seems is the method of the adversary, to accuse falsely.
Furthermore, I did not have my word open besides my eyes when I wrote any of this, I simply rely upon Gods Spirit to " call to remberence all things as I have need of them ", by FAITH I was able to quote, not by my ability to memorize but only by FAITH, lest I boast.
Therefore, it is you that hasn't been a workman, studying to show thyself approved by rightly dividing the word of truth.

Take heed of your words, lest thou stumble under a rock rather than to throw yourself upon it.
I shall leave you too it then and am through here.
God Bless
Stēkō Parrēsia

Drew, by the very grace of GOD through the blood of Christ Jesus.
"there shall come after us men whom shall garner great wealth using our system, and having done so shall seek to slam the door of prosperity behind them." George Washington

A difference between faith and reasoning

I recognized the scripture. I also recognized where what you said didn't line up with it. For instance - saying men wrote the Bible, so you don't need to know the passages. Putting your own reasoning in front as an idol for doing or not doing something, the exact idol quoted in full at the top of this thread in Ezekial.

The problem is not me, but you not recognizing scriptures specifically quoted. Not reworded, and sometimes badly.

You're not suppose to despise the Holy Bible, nor criticize a Christian for quoting it. Only witches do that.

A difference between faith and reasoning:

Faith: God - I don't understand why you want me to do this, but since you said it, and it's in your Word, I want to.

Reason: Well, I don't understand why God "purportedly" said this, so I won't.

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.

I get your point MAX

But it doesn't apply to me, and your being disingenuous to say otherwise, and you know it.
Which is why I'm desire to not debate the issue with you, nor contend the word.

I don't feel my educating you on when, how and why Chapter numbering and verse numbering came about, nor when. But I strongly suggest that if you desire to fully comprehend what is of and what is NOT of scripture that is devinely inspired and not merely ADDED by translators to various translations of (3) CODEX's ( B, C, Aleph ) then you should spend the time to educate yourself as to the information. Additionally, understanding the backgrounds of the individual's who did the translating is a known, and much religious bias has infiltrated and diluted the word because of men such as Westcott and Hort. Great damage was done to Gods word, for there has been a long and protracted war against it by Lucifer himself.
I'm not your average Christian by a long shot, all praise to God for it too.
And lastly MAX, I don't contend the word.

GOD BLESS
Stēkō Parrēsia ( Koine Greek, the language of the New Testiment )

Drew, by the very grace of GOD through the blood of Christ Jesus.
"there shall come after us men whom shall garner great wealth using our system, and having done so shall seek to slam the door of prosperity behind them." George Washington

A personal apology requested

"But it doesn't apply to me, and your being disingenuous to say otherwise, and you know it."

You know, not only was I not being disingenuous or doing anything wrong intentionally, but trying to present something I thought was important from the Holy Bible, but it was the second or third time you personally attacked my motive and then ended your message with God bless. You should apologize. And it won't be a blessing when you do, because, per the original message, doing harm to someone is not what all sins are by a long shot.

I don't expect a real appology, but from anyone who is a Christian, such things should not be hard to do. How shameless is it to derail someone sharing something from his heart about the Holy Bible, call them disingeous, judge their heart, proclaim yourself better than the average Christian, and then say God bless!

I've seen this wickedness for a long time. And it seems to me, the spirit of iniquity begins with thinking you have knowledge sins - "it's all about harming others", instead of faith in God.

Sins are not all harming others. You sinned against me here, but are completely blind to the fact that you are being hurtful, slanderous and rude, because "its not really wrong" - because and here it is "I judged what wrong is.

No, God judges what wrong is. He also judges people, not you. And it's the exact sin I said right at the beginning wasn't true. Sin is what God says it is, and it is not rationalized by us, and it does not always involve harming others. In fact, you don't even get to loving others under that definition, let alone FAITH, which has nothing to do with man made ideas of harming others, and yet the lack of is sin. The sin of unbelief.

And by the way, God bless. And I mean it. I wrote this message just for you, having already been slapped and insulted by you multiple times, just hoping that you will listen and learn. You wronged me. And you are wrong about what sin is. It is God that determines sin. And you aren't suppose to judge, in exactly the way you have.

It's payments like this that encourages me to continue preaching and proclaiming. I think you need to say you are sorry from the heart, and not like I've heard in the past. How could you even do this? God bless? I'd be ashamed to mix my anger under God's cover.

It's a sin.

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.

Max

Though I know I have done none to you that you think I did.

Please forgive any imagined offense that your misunderstanding of my words may have imparted to you, my error was in conversation, one I will dillegently seek to never repeat.

God Bless
Stēkō

Drew, by the very grace of GOD through the blood of Christ Jesus.
"there shall come after us men whom shall garner great wealth using our system, and having done so shall seek to slam the door of prosperity behind them." George Washington

Second or third accusation

Second or third accusation you've made.

I haven't made an accusation to you yet. I prayed for you. I have no reason to believe you are a Christian from what you've said, nor do I need to - it's a public forum and anyone can post.

You don't act like a Christian in these things, is all I am observing. We aren't suppose to judge one another. We're suppose to pray for others. I've prayed for you, but I don't like you much at the moment for your pride, and I'm hoping it isn't a permanent thing - love hopes.

Love also separates. You shouldn't boast about yourself either. But I already discounted you as someone I'll speak to. And by the way - your parting shot which is meant as an insult (which is wrong), followed by your boasting yourself over others (which is wrong), is directly taken from a Bible passage - which you are denying (you're denying a part of the Bible).

Friend, if you need to reexamine your faith and walk in Christ. You may consider yourself a gnostic Chritian, or something equally unbiblical and unloved. What is your faith built on? You need to consider that.

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.

Thank God you didn't make me like other men - Luke 18

Luke 18:
"9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. 13And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. 14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."

Don't know what an average Christian is suppose to be. Happy to be with Christ.

Titus 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

Guess someone can claim to be a Christian, but when they don't act or speak like one, you should remove yourself from them.

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.