-17 votes

The Great Sovereign Challenge

To all who claim they legally travel with no license, discharge debts with "straw man" or "accepted for value" because they are sovereigns, here's your chance.

You get to publically show what a studmuffin (or muffinette) you happen to be. If you win, I will publicly agree that the straw man exists and that you are now a sovereign, plus I will do your laundry and wash your car for a year.

But: you have to have proof. A traffic ticket dismissed because the judge was too busy, or the cop didn't show, won't suffice. So you have to show that you did some sovereign mumbo jumbo, and that a court somewhere ruled, in writing, that not only did you prevail but you prevailed because of your mumbo jumbo. It has to be an authentic writing, from a court, that is a final result. Not overturned later, not a tentative ruling, a for reals final result in your favor because you have successfully "escaped the matrix" or whatever cornball phrase you want to use!

If you can do that, then you will be the victor.

And one more thing - I am the Judge of this competition. I make the rules and the rulings. And I can hold you in contempt of thread.

Competitors have one day to make their submissions from the date of thread creation. Submissions can be in .pdf form linked from this forum. All submissions must be certified and from a real Court of a State or Federal US jurisdiction. All submissions must be verifiable - i.e., one can go to Court and get a copy that is identical, if need be. All costs for obtaining copies and verification are the responsibility of the contestant, and in no way the responsibility of the boneless chicken rancher and certainly not of his chickens. These rules are to prevent fraud on the chicken rancher. Go ye.

Go now and Show us how it's done!


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1.) Thanks for the links, I'll certainly take a look... should I ever feel it necessary to become sovereign.

2.) I'm not trying to prove anything to you, and I stated that from the very first post. Are you fucking dense, or what? ( sorry, but you did call me a dumb ass) Not ONCE have I said that I even disagree with you. Not ONCE have I suggested that you can, or should drive without a license, etc.. You just want to be a combative asshat for some reason, and attack people using ad hominem arguments. Seriously, how many times fucking times can I say it man? " My interest had NOTHING TO DO WITH BEING A SOVEREIGN CITIZEN? HOW MANY TIMES?


It was the DUE PROCESS VIOLATION that caught my attention. Get it? How 'bout now? ( ..That I've mentioned it like 3 times.. 4 times?.. I lost track. )

My god, for someone who supposedly practices law ( Can you PROVE that? Because your demeanor is very questionable. ), you don't seem to be able to read, or comprehend what I've written.. repeatedly! Well, Idk.. maybe you did catch on a little, because you mentioned the court not wanting to railroad people.

3.) The example I DID provide from EDDIE CRAIG'S radio show is apparently LEGITIMATE... as according to.. ahem.. YOU. ( Sovereign tactic or not it seems like EDDIE CRAIG is putting out some legit info ) .. and I didn't even agree with it!!! I'm a bad salesperson for EDDIE CRAIG. ( And if you want I'll try to track down the actual episode of EDDIE CRAIG'S radio show that it was on, but it's gonna take awhile. I'll have to listen to a bunch of shows. )

4.) I hope you don't use these same arguments ( name calling ) or attitude to practice law as you do to try to make a point on internet forums... I cant imagine that working out well for you.

5.) I'm just as tired as you are of people posting BS that has no basis in reality. As evidenced by previous posts on previous threads that I have made ( links below if you haven't looked yet.. I can rant with the best of them. )

6.) You're making the liberty movement look just as bad by being an asshole to everybody. ( Hey, I've been guilty myself at times.) Some people are infuriating! I get it!

7.) Guess I'm a little butthurt about you calling me a dumb ass.

8.) I'm gonna go drive... errr.. 'travel' my 50cc scooter around to make me feel better! ( NO REGISTRATION OR LICENSE PLATES REQUIRED, BABY!! ) At least that's what the DMV told when I went to register it.


Don't know the actual code section, but if you need proof on that, I can look it up in the statues. ;)

but be careful there, Sparky!

You linked to a dmv cite for proof you don't need no stinkin' license or registration for your 50cc scooter.

But the link you included, http://www.dmv.org/ut-utah/other-types.php - says that you both need a motorcycle license and to register it. So, uh, assuming you are in the good State of Utah which you linked to, you'd better read your link a leetle more closely...

Oh wait, EDDIE is on the line...

Stay tuned for next episode of "sovereign stripped of crown while riding scooter, part deux"

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."-- Albert Einstein


I meant license plate. Not drivers license. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

You need a drivers license!!

I also have no idea

I also have no idea what DMV.org is... is was just the first thing that came up when I googled it.

Trust me.. I'll get my advise from the actual DMV here. Not DMV.org.


Actual vehicle code.. if YOU would like to run through it for me!

When the DMV told me over the phone, I looked up the vehicle code and bookmarked it. just haven't had a chance to look through it yet. I've rode the scooter 2 times.. to the store.. 100 yards away from my house.

Honestly, wasn't too worried about it. ;) I'll just outrun the po-po on my hog!


From the page: http://www.dmv.org/ut-utah/other-types.php

NOTE: A moped does not require registration, unless it has a 50 cc engine or larger.

The scooter is 49.5 cc. ( sorry, I said 50cc )

I haven't looked up the actual code yet. I spoke to the DMV on the phone. But I will look it up.. Just for you!!


eh, so, okay,

You asked me a question. I answered it.

If you are citing the vehicle code to show you are complying with the vehicle code, hey that sounds like a pretty good common sense thing to do.

A 50cc scooter is not required to have a license plate? Well, if that is what the legislature says, then ok, sounds good to me. 50cc is pretty harmless. Good for you!

I know I had to have one on my 200cc Vespa, but that was 20 years or so ago, larger engine, different state and laws change. I know people don't need licenses on electric bikes (yet) either. (Note: Am I saying I like licenses, no, I am discussing reality.)

Now, if you were a follower of EDDIE CRAIG you might be thinking that you didn't have to follow the Code at all. You'd be here arguing that your station wagon didn't need to be licensed because it is not a commercial vehicle. And then you'd probably not tell us all about the ensuing arrest....

Sorry if I unloaded on you. And I did edit out the word "dumbass". And, I'm not acting like an a-hole. I am making fun of a blatantly ridiculous and fraudulent line of reasoning that gets talked up here as if it is legitimate. Just this morning, I had breakfast with a fellow attorney and we talked about this subject and this thread and he, a democrat, just took it as proof that all Ron Paul followers are nuts. Is that what you want us to be thought of as?

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."-- Albert Einstein


You managed to call me a dumb ass in the process. ( Thank you, for deleting that. ) Altho, I really didn't take it personally. ;)

I'm in Utah, not CA. For some reason they don't require it here.. Although they DID warn me that some municipalities *might*, and I would have to check with them individually.

Hell, I even bought insurance for the damn thing.. I didn't ask if it was required or not.. I don't *think* it is.. just kinda sounded like a good idea anyway. Ya know?

I assure you, I am not a follower or promoter of E.C. I've managed to listen to a couple of shows. But I AM interested in what he's said about due process. I'm not an attorney, so I really don't know if what he says would hold water or not, as far as not giving the police your ID, registration, insurance by invoking your rights.

You'll probably end up with the police kicking in your car window. ( Just like he mentioned in the info wars video ) and no.. I'm not an A.J fan either. It really was the title of the video that caught my attention.

So, I'm legitimately interested in how that would pan out. I DON'T know the law well enough. And I'm really interested to hear someone call into his show with details and PROOF.. So I'll probably listen to some more to see if that ever happens... ESPECIALLY if it is to debunk it!!

I've just seen so many people comply with the police and get screwed, that what he had to say about it caught my attention. And basically all he's said.. is just don't say anything ( for the most part ) and don't give them anything that will help them prosecute you. That honestly doesn't sound like bad advice... well, unless you don't want your window kicked in on the side of the road!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik ( NOT E.C ) But an actual attorney with basically the same advice. ( Although, there is nothing about traffic stops mentioned. )

Someone just posted a link today about the guy in CA that got beat for refusing to sign a ticket.. so I see a real concern/issue there. My grandfather was a sheriff here for a long-time, ( other family was LEO too ) and I have a lot of respect for law enforcement, but things seem to be going down hill, and police violence seems to be escalating.. Fortunately I haven't been involved with the court system, but I don't have a ton of faith in it either. Maybe you have a better perspective on that, if it's something you deal with often.

And I definitely feel your pain, man.. I DEFINITELY feel your pain. People will believe what they want to believe, regardless of facts or evidence. And, NO, I don't want people to have a bad impression of the liberty movement.

I'm prone to getting fed up, and ranting myself from time to time, and HAVE considered starting some threads myself.. But I keep telling myself to be nice! And I don't think that making fun of people is the right way to go about it... It just makes people hate you, then you'll never achieve your goal, which seems to be the same as mine. ( Make the movement look good, and legitimate! ) TRUST ME.. it's a challenge to bite my tongue sometimes! But it's the right thing to do. ( For me anyway. ) You're welcome to continue. :) I know it can be fun!!

I do appreciate the apology. Thank you.

I apologize as well, and will edit accordingly. I think we're probably on the same page of a lot of the 'issues' here at the DP. As well as the movement in general.

I think that we should be friends from now on though, and thank you for responding to my posts

thank you

and sorry for being a prick. Heck, I may call into his show sometime, just for kicks.

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."-- Albert Einstein

Send me a message first so I can listen in!

If you make it past the call screeners! haha!

So.. the registration / license plate issue was obviously a big part of his presentation, and intriguing, but not of interest to me. It was the first time I've heard the arguments for it being commercial vs. private, and really the first time I'd ever really heard any arguments for the sov. citizen issue. Even though he didn't mention it by name. I have heard of it, and new the DL / registration was a 'thing', so I put 2 and 2 together, but I'd never looked into it.

But, if you have any insight into the due process/rights violation issue. THAT is what I'd be interested in hearing.. because like you said.. this stuff can sound really good, but I don't know enough about the law to make a determination on the validity of what he's saying.

My first impression of "Don't give them your registration or DL" was.. really? That sounds like a bad idea! Interesting, but bad. But he explains in a way that makes some sense.. to me.. ( Remember, I'm not an attorney!! )

You have the right to not incriminate yourself. ( As witnesses by the IRS lady today.. Learner? Was that her name? ) So, could you potentially invoke your rights, and refuse to provide info that could incriminate you, such as an expired Drivers License?

On the surface, it seems like it has some validity to it. As well as making sure you get due process throughout your court appearances. ( regardless of whether its a car registration issue, DL, or something completely different ) I know most, in not all, states have implied consent laws, but even then, it seems like you would still have the right not to incriminate yourself.

Remember, I'm a noob at this, and really just trying to learn, wrap my head around it, and find out if this is BS. So honestly, I'm kind of in debunk mode myself.

SO TAKE IT EASY ON ME from now on!! Haha!

Here is a link to the traffic script that he put out.


And for some reason it won't let me go back and edit my old posts. :/

once again, downvotes for reality

do you down vote people who think the Earth is round? What is up with that?

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."-- Albert Einstein

Since Rant err, Contest is closed, a question?

why do you care what some other people are doing in the quest to be free?

If you dont think it is legit ignore it.


Liberty = Responsibility

for a lot of reasons

one, I dislike stupidity

two, I dislike fraud

three, I dislike the cause of liberty and freedom hijacked by cons

four, I dislike people claiming to be awake being let around like sheep by cons

five, I know better

six, it's entertaining

seven, you might learn something

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."-- Albert Einstein

Thank you

For the response it ads clarity to the tone of the OP and your responses down the thread.

Sorry to hear you fear being hijacked by frauds and cons. It is a shame for anyone to be victimized by fraud.

Baiting stupidity into an argument when you already no better is tacky way to be entertained.

To each there own & all the best


Liberty = Responsibility

Yes, I agree, after all

and that is just what I did - baited stupidity into an argument.


"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."-- Albert Einstein

How many subpoenas and summons...

has the current administration neglected to appear for and still nothing happens to their detriment, so please don't come here acting as if my attempt to thwart the b.s. is less admirable and fake than the legal system that makes a sordid joke out of procedures in attempting to bring to light lies made by our leaders and their blatant refusals to follow legalities.

Father - Husband - Son - Spirit - Consciousness

way off topic

Since when does this thread have anything to do with:

"how many subpoenas" the current administration "neglected to appear for?"

And since when is your posting about your getting out of a judgment, an attempt to "thwart the b.s." (assuming you are referring to the administration)?

How nuts is that?

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."-- Albert Einstein


So first, I am neither for or against the sovereign citizen movement, and I'm not trying to win whatever your contest is. Just stating my observations on what little I have looked into it.

1.) Someone posted the link to Eddie Craig's presentation on info wars. I watched it because it was titled "Things the cops don't want you to know." A lot of my family comes from law enforcement, so it caught my attention. He made some interesting points, but I liked that he's telling people to use their rights. Most people will let the police walk all over them.

2.) I like the rule of law ( It's an amazing concept really ), so I figured I give the 'rule of law radio' a listen, and see if I could learn anything. ( Eddie's radio show ) There's actually some good info.

3.) There was a gentleman on the show ( I don't remember his name, or what show it was, but if you REALLY wan't me to I could probably find it. It was a May or April show.) That had his debt discharged. It was from a credit card.

4.) The reason was because the 3rd party collection agency didn't have first hand knowledge of the debt. If I remember correctly, what it came down was the debt couldn't be validated.

5.) Obviously, this was not me it happened too, and I'm not trying to represent this as absolutely fact. However, I'm sure it could be researched if you were REALLY interested. ( Maybe one day I'll get around to it. I could probably find the episode of the show if you want me to. ) Or maybe this guy just calls into radio show's and makes random claims. ( Shrugs shoulders )

6.) The guy was willing to show other people the legal steps he went through, and it 'seems' like he gave his full name on the radio show.

7.) I'm not sure if you would even consider this a 'sovereign tactic', 'straw man' or not. Seems like basic hearsay to me.. ." Well, your honor the credit card company TOLD me that mr. so and so owes 5 million dollars. You believe me, right your honor?"

8.) Personally, I'm all for paying debts that you owe.

Number 9.) Paul is dead.

10.) I'm skeptical too. Just my nature. :)

11.) It does make me want to know, and understand more about law. So that's probably a good thing overall. Because if you don't know how to play their game, you're definitely going to lose every time.

12.) Eddie Craig seems to approach it more from a 'Due Process' rights violation position.

13.) You could probably contact Eddie Craig directly, and ask HIM for some court rulings... that would probably be a better place to start that the DP... But then you wouldn't get to cause all this controversy now would you ;)

Eddie Craig - bs artist

He's just making a buck off of the same old sovereign citizen crap and other legal internet myths that have been around and are well debunked for ages. I saw his video and within a few short minutes he told some big whoppers. Stuff that sounds good if you're not familiar with the law, but just sounds fraudulent and like a scam if you are. (Stuff like the whole you don't have to follow codes and ordinances nonsense).

The "tao" of law. riggght. Law doesn't have a tao. Unfortunately (and this is reality so if reality offends you, go hide your eyes), laws get passed because of competing interest groups, political factions, lobbyists, etc., and the result is often conflicting, confusing, poorly worded, and complex. Especially in litigious states like Ca and Texas. In fairy-land where unicorns romp amongst the marigolds, maybe there is a "tao of law" and I'm sure you'll find Mr. Craig there studying it.

Discharging a debt because the creditor or collector cannot prove it exists is a legitimate tactic, and has nothing to do with straw man/ sovereign citizen stuff. I have done it myself. But that isn't what this thread is about. In fact, that is so legitimate that I am surprised that it was mentioned by that dude.

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."-- Albert Einstein

I'm just curious

I'm just curious.., what is your familiarity with law?

Attorney by chance?

I'm not. But I can think critically.. I'm definitely not suggesting everything E.C says is true. ( By ANY means lol ), but I think part of is argument is the same as yours: Laws are often conflicting, confusing, poorly worded, and complex...

Which happens to leave legal 'technical' loophole from time to time.


though, one can simply be wrong. I don't purport to know brain surgery just because there are different views on how to do brain surgery.

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."-- Albert Einstein

I'd still ask him...

I'd still ask him ( Eddie Craig ) to provide actual court cases if it's something you're REALLY interested in.

Otherwise, it just seems like your trying to rile people up here on the DP... ( Which, I admit, can be fun at times ) But if you're ONLY point is to cause tension.. well, I haven't read through all the comments, but you've probably accomplished your mission. G.W.B Would be proud! Would you like to borrow an aircraft carrier for a few minutes? lol ;P

Seriously tho, If you're looking for REAL answers, look in the correct place. I don't think this is it. If E.C can't provide court cases, then obviously, there is an issue.

E.C. seems to talk mostly about traffic issues. BUT, like I said, from what I can gather he's approaching it from a Due process violation standpoint NOT from a 'I don't need a license' standpoint. I believe his words were: Never argue the merits of the case. You WON'T win!

I've only listened to a couple of shows, but he did ask people what the h-e-l-l they thought was going to happen if they started driving with no license!! ( The person got in trouble/arrested. )

So he seems maybe more level-headed than some others. I'll listen to some more shows before I pass judgement. But I definitely like that he encourages people to PROTECT THEIR RIGHTS!

But back to the debt issue. So if this case was real, and I'm assuming that it was, it seems like it could apply to ANY 3rd party debt collection efforts. That seems like a big deal.

I guess I'm not familiar enough with the straw-man thing to know what it really is. Damn it! My sovereign citizen credential suck!

You're missing the point

I'm not out seeking answers. I know the answers. I know the whole sov cit thing is bunk because I practice law and I have personally researched and debunked these things.

I get tired of people posting their fraud about this stuff.

So, I created a thread to illustrate that no one can prove it works. So far, no one can.

That point must be really dangerous to the Sov Citizen/Fake Legal Advice scam artists and those who promote them. And by the way, are YOU one of those? You seem to really have a vested interest in promoting "Eddie." If it walks like a duck...

And further evidence of your beak and feathers - is that you are employing the typical strategy of one pushing these schemes/bs courses...you know of someone who knows of someone and why they sound really legit and of course, it never is YOU and YOU never have PROOF, at least not that YOU can SHOW, not right NOW. nope. Sort of like an end-of-the-world cult - there' a million reasons why it just can't be shown right now, not right here. Why, I shouldn't ask the world to post just one example on a popular website? Come on now, if this was done by as many nuts as claim to have done it, we'd see some proof here. My rules my contest. Now post some proof or bugger off. Luv,

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."-- Albert Einstein

I don't know

I don't know if you can find previous posts that I've make on people's threads... but I'm MORE THAN HAPPY to bust people's balls when they lack proof!!

Here's one:


My contribution starts with: DELETE THIS STUPID SHIT!

And ends with: Never post anything this retarded again.

Umm.. besides, you agreed with me that discharging debt because its unverifiable is a legitimate tactic.

So, calm down there, turbo.

You should re-read the first post

You're starting to sound paranoid, and delusional.

Never did I present anything as fact, or state that I had proof.

I feel like I made that pretty clear...

Clearly, I'm fairly 'in the dark' about the sov. citizen moment. I don't even know what your straw-man thing is that you were talking about.

now that's two posts

where you didnt even use the word "Eddie". Now how are you going to ever earn a commission doing that?

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."-- Albert Einstein

Oh lord.

haha, nope,

I just happened to watch his video when someone posted it ( fairly recently ), and listened to a couple of his radio shows. I don't know any other people/gurus in the sov. citizen movement.

I could google some really quick, if you'd like, and I could reference them.. but I literally don't know anybody else.

been done

it doesn't exist.

Just guys like you, all over the internet, either selling directly, or pointing to someone else who is, some kind of scheme that is supposed to show you how to redeem your strawman/sovereignty, all for a fee, of course. It flat out is fraudulent.

I don't need you to google it. But gosh, youre just mr. helpful. you forgot to plug "eddie". What kind of a commission does he give you?

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."-- Albert Einstein


Do you need a xanax?



"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."-- Albert Einstein


If you practice law, and have personally researched these things, can you point to case law that says they don't work?

Also, I'm not sure what's wrong with you, or why you seem to be attacking me. Do you have some unresolved personal issues that you like taking out on other people... or what?

Are you not happy with yourself? ( That's usually the case... I'm better at phycology than law ) Having a bad day?

What gives?

I think it's funny that you'd suggest I'm somehow involved with EDDIE CRAIG! ( Bam! Money in the bank, baby! That MF owes me big time for this thread! )

Of course there is the possibility that maybe I was telling the truth when I told you I watched EDDIE CRAIGS presentation because of the title. I actually don't know if EDDIE CRAIG has said anything about sov. citizens.

But I've seen enough people go to jail when they could have avoided it if they would have stood up for their rights.

If you'd like I CAN point you to the videos I have bookmarked on youtube about THAT! Which, like I said, was really what interested me about EDDIE CRAIG... that whole due process thing that I've mentioned repeatedly.

It really didn't have anything to do with being a sov. citizen, OR driving without a license. It wasn't the first I have heard about that issue, but I really don't know a lot about it.