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Religious: Study in depth, Revelation 12, verses 1- 17

                    Revelation 12: a study in depth. Verse One 

12:1 " And there appeared a great wonder(1) in heaven; a woman(2) clothed with the sun(3) and the moon(3) under her feet, and upon her head was a crown(4) of twelve stars(5)." 

  (1) WONDER: Gr. sēmeion, a sign, a mark, a token. From the Gr, root sēmainō, to give a sign, to signify, to indicate.
     a.) sēmeion is often translated in context as " a miracle " ( Luke 23:8, John 4:54 )
     b.) a further confirmation of the " open " or " revealed " nature of the book of Revelation.
    c.) in Rev 12:1 " sēmeion " is a sign pointing towards future events.

  (2) WOMAN: is a church ( Isa 54:5, Jer 6:2 representing Gods church ) 
And ( Jer. 3:20, Eze. 23:2-4, 2 Cor. 11:2, Eph 5:25-32, and Rev 17:1-3 representing an apostate church as a corrupt woman. ) 
    a.) in this reference the Woman represents Gods church both OT and NT as she transitions from OT ( Pre birth of Jesus ), past the birth and resurrection until the return of Jesus ( NT Church. ) within this single prophetic revelation twelve. One must therefor take great care to prove that a " church " thought to represent this WOMAN today, does in fact have the attributes of righteousness. Thankfully God, in his wisdom foreknew we'd earnestly seek to know who this WOMAN/ church is in our time and He inspired John to write Rev. 12:17 as a guide by which we might properly apply scripture to know the characteristics of His only church today. This WOMAN must therefor have TWO characteristics 1). She must have the " testimony of Jesus Christ " ( Rev 19:10 tells us exactly what the testimony of Jesus Christ is ) and 2.) she must " keep the commandments of God ". Any church that fails to have either of these two attributes, can NOT be this woman as described in scripture.

  (3) " Clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet," Her the church is examples the brightness of Jesus ( resurrected ), and God himself as they appear to men throughout the OT and NT when they appear to men in person. 
    a.) God is Light, and the sun and moon represent those lights of the earth. The moon under her feet has been suggested to encompass the OT sanctuary system ( and those laws that applied to the sacrificial system of types ) that was overshadowed and replaced with a better thing ( the sun being an prophetic image of;  the Son of righteousness, Jesus Christ ) in the NT. thusly the NEW is worn as a garment but the OLD is the foundations overshadowed by the greater light.

  (4) CROWN: Gr. stephanos, a victors garland ( crown )( see MAtt. 27:29, Rev 2:10 ) as in a crown one wins for winning a foot race ( this imagery would have had profound and clear understanding in the early church as the athletic games of the Greeks were widely known and enjoyed throughout all of the known world at that time, the winner of each event was given a " woven garland " to indicate their triumph ).
    a.) this CROWN is NOT diadēma, a kingly crown.

   (5) Twelve Stars: commentators apply these stars to either the twelve apostles or the twelve patriarchs OT, I favor including both as both are equal in importance in their times to Gods church. The latter does not exist without the former, and all are not abiding in Jesus without the latter, they must it seem be seen in the context of the purpose that God has for them and not through the eyes of bias. Undoubtedly the emphasis is upon the latter due to the context of REV 12, but the former is also interwoven into the NT church ( we are Israel, grafted into the vine and into the seed of Abraham by grace , see Romans Chapters 8-11).  

       Studying Scripture in depth: Revelation 12 , verse 2

12:2 " And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered."

The " she " is an obvious reference to the " woman " who is a church(1) in verse one. And this church is " with child ", that child being none other than Jesus ( ee-ay-sooce , Strong's Gr. 2424 ) the long awaited and anticipated messiah of the nation of Israel and the whole earth. Please note with me that we are introduced to the concept of this "woman/ church " at the time Jesus(2) is to be born into the world. 

travailing: Gr. ( Strong's 5605 ) ōdinō, o-dee'-no; from ( 5604 )( ōdin, o-deen : a pang or throe, espec. Of childbirth:- pain, sorrow, travail. ) ; to experience the pains of parturition ( literal or figurative ) :- travail in birth.
Obviously, the reference to birth pains is used in a figurative sense here, as the "woman/ church " is not a individual, but is a image of Gods holy church both prior too and after the birth of our redeemer Jesus Christ.
The "Woman/ Church was first given to the nation of Israel, for they were to make disciples of the world proclaiming God in all they did, missionaries and evangelists(3). Yet, Israel the physical nation failed, firstly to be missionaries, secondly to look for salvation as being for their own selves as well as others. They considered themselves saved by virtue of ancestry ( Abraham is our father (4)) not realizing that it was Abrahams FAITH (5) that was accounted to him as righteous. They saw the DNA, God sees the heart, lest we also make such error in presumption.

The question then remains, and id love to hear your thoughts; at what point did the Church go from the physical Israel into those who by faith become the spiritual Israel , what scriptures support your beliefs ( please list them, as well as what bible you used to quote from so we all can see ).

God Bless and give glory to Him who is able to save, Jesus Christ.
Stēkō Parrēsia 

(1) see Revelation 12: a study in depth posted 5/26/2013 Here at the DP.
(2) some see Isa. 7:14 as a reference. For " travailing woman " read Isa.   .   . . 26:17,66:7,8. 
(3) Gen. 12:3, Ex. 19:4-6, Isa. 40-55. 
(4) John 8:39
(5) for how FAITH is exampled and encouraged see Hebrews Chapters 11 & 12 


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Common Destiny, Absolutely!

and, Yes, Eventually. It may well work somewhat like the idea I heard at Temple Aron Kodesh in Ft. Lauderdale: the tribes of Israel accepted Gentiles into their tribe, just as Rahab was given the place in the tribe of Judah, the Messianic line. Most Messianic congregations will treat a Gentile as a equal citizen of the Commonwealth of Israel, even permitting the men (and some even permit women!) the honor of commenting on the Torah. that seems to be consistent within the Messianic Movement. More Rarely a Gentile who is well trained in the Scripture may even lead a Messianic Congregation.

"Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern." ~~C.S. Lewis
Love won! Deliverance from Tyranny is on the way! Col. 2:13-15

The Holy Spirit will get

Us to where He wants us to be in Faith, KJ or otherwise.
I love a Romans series by Nathan Renner, I'm in Chapter 12 now and he goes, like I am doing here, verse by verse. Your absolutely correct, Paul is showin the nuts and bolts of who Israel in the New Covenat ( I prefer, the fufiled covenant ) is, and points that all are welcome in Faith, first the Jew by promise ( the type to Jesus's anti-type, sanctuary system vs salvation through Jesus ) and then the Gentiles. His use of Grafting is inspired, for it illustrates the how of it so clearly.
I'm big on the KJ because it, according to my own research most closely fits overall with the word from the original languages. But I use BOTH my InterLinear Hebraic/Koine taken directly from the Codex C ( Textus Recptivus ) in conjunction with my KJ, and the Strong's concordance into EVERY study I do, I diligently seek to insure an accurate understanding. Considering that I once thought reading my bible, once a week was doing great stuff, I think God has and will continue to mature my faith. I think you have a very similar story to tell.

Thanks for your comment, and the link to the Blue !

God Bless

Drew, by the very grace of GOD through the blood of Christ Jesus.
"there shall come after us men whom shall garner great wealth using our system, and having done so shall seek to slam the door of prosperity behind them." George Washington

As promised: REVELATION 1:1

And all commentary is after the fact, the words are simply defined through Strong's to expand upon the complete understanding of Gods word, and that word alone.

                          A study in Detail: Revelation: 1, verse 1

[ King James ] Rev 1:1 " the Revelation(A) of Jesus(B) Christ, which God( C ) gave unto him, to shew unto his servants(D) things which must(E) shortly(F) come to pass(G); and he sent(H) and signified { it }(1) by his angel(I) unto his servant(D), John. " 

[ the InterLinear Bible ] Rev: 1:1 " A revelation of Jesus Christ which gave to him, (3) God to show the slaves of Him things/which (2) must occur with speed;(3) and he signified sending through the angel of Him to the slave of Him,(3) John " 

(1), words in italics in scripture are { } herein, as I've no italics on my keyboard.
(2) InterLinear interpretation lists conjunctive word meanings one over another like a fraction is expressed in forth grade math without the line, things ( and beneath it  which, I will represent these word terms by using the " / " between complex theme words.
(3) the InterLinear places punctuations, but the Codex from which it is derived does NOT, simply because punctuation was not part of either of the original languages of the Word. Thusly bear in mind that all scriptural punctuation has been placed by men into the word, which can make quite a difference(J).

The Revelation : ( Strong's Gr. 602 from 601 ) apokalupsis [ 602 ], apokalupto [ 601], 
............ 602: Apokalupsis, ap-ok-al'-oop-sis; disclosure:  appearing, coming, lighten, manifestation, be revealed, revelation.
............ 601: apokalupto, ap-ok-al-oop'-to; from [ 575 : apo: away ] and [ 2572 : kalupto: cover ] i, e, away/cover : to take off the cover, i.e., disclose: reveal.

Jesus : ( Strong's  Gr. 2424 or Heb. 3091 ) Iēsous, ee-ay-sooce'; Jesus (i.e., Jehoshua ) the name of our Lord and two other Isr. :  Jesus 

God : ( Strong's gr. 2316 ) theos, theh'-os ; of uncertain. aff. ; a deity. espec. ( with 3588, a definitive article ) the supreme Divinity; fig. a magistrate; by Heb. very: - exceeding, God , god ( -ly, -ward ). 

Servant(s): ( Strong's 1401, doulos, doo'-los; from [1210, deo, to bind ] a slave ( lit. or fig., invol. or vol.) frequently, therefore in a qualified sense of subjection or subserviency : bond (-man), servant.

Must: ( Strong's 1163 through the sense of [1210]), dei, die; third per. sing. act. present of [1210]; also deon, deh-on' ; neut. act. part. of the same; both used impers.;  it is ( was, etc. ) necessary ( as binding ): behoved, be meet, must (needs), (be) need (-ful), ought, should.

Shortly: no reference in the KJ, but is conjunctive [ 1722/5034 ] InterLinear.
( Strong's 1722: en, en: { see lengthy definition(s) for all detail to " en "; x- shortly, [ speedi] ly. )
( Strong's 5034 tachos, takh'-os; a brief space ( of time), i.e., ( with [ 1722 pref. ] in haste: + quickly, + shortly, + speedily.

To Pass: this text may/ may not be omitted, as it is not in the original and was therefor added by the translator to emphasize " shortly " in relation to time. Inclusion of " to pass " does not hinder nor change the intent of scripture.

Sent: ( Strong's 649: apostello, ap-os-tel'-lo; from [ 575: apo, a primary part. " away ( from something near or far "] and [ 4724: stello, stel-lo ; withdraw self ]
To send out ( prop. on a mission ) lit. or fig. : Putin, send ( away, forth, out ), set ( at liberty ).

Angel: ( Strong's 32 aggelos, ang'-el-os; from aggello [ prob. der. from 71: ago comp. 34 ] ( to bring tidings ); a messenger; esp. an angel; by impl. a pastor: angel messenger .

(J): for an example on how incorrect punctuation can render incorrect understanding of scripture see Luke 23;34. The " comma's " placement can render this verse either correctly ( according to what follows after it, i.e., Jesus does NOT go into heaven that day, but does so two days later...therefore it was impossible for the thief to be " literally " with Jesus that day. If Jesus was not in heaven then the thief could not " be with Jesus in paradise " in reality, therefor the only correct way to read the text is to know that it is the act of faith on the part of the thief that has " guaranteed " him through faith " today " a place in heaven with Jesus. It was recorded that dead saints in Faith also rose and walked about ( then went to heaven) in Jerusalem when Jesus rose on the third day. It is very like that on the First day of the week, Sunday that the thief did in fact join Jesus in Heaven, but scripture does not tell us exactly who were the saints of Faith so risen to/ with him. But in either case, that thief nor Jesus were in heaven that day ( Friday ), and to teach otherwise is in error. This also points to WHY in depth studies are mandatory if one wants to know and accept only Gods truth and light, they root out incorrect doctrines and philosophies that are NOT to be found in Gods word.

Thanks to all who encouraged me to start from the beginning !

Drew, by the very grace of GOD through the blood of Christ Jesus.
"there shall come after us men whom shall garner great wealth using our system, and having done so shall seek to slam the door of prosperity behind them." George Washington

And so it begins....

The unfolding of the vision is about to begin, the Revelation of Jesus Christ is about to be revealed. The messenger has been sent and signified and John is about to be "shown things which must shortly come to pass". One would do well to remember this as we progress

Thanks J

For the suggestion, and I pray I can depend upon you to contribute?

God Bless
Stēkō Parrēsia

Drew, by the very grace of GOD through the blood of Christ Jesus.
"there shall come after us men whom shall garner great wealth using our system, and having done so shall seek to slam the door of prosperity behind them." George Washington


1:1-3 The book of Revelation is a loving message from Jesus Christ to His precious bride, the church, revealing the things that must soon come to pass. It is meant to be understood by His people, with a blessing promised to those who read, hear and keep the things revealed in these prophecies.

The word “Revelation” comes from the Greek “apokalupisis” (Strong’s # 602) which means: “an unveiling of”. The very name of this book disproves the common assumption that it cannot be understood. Despite the many different interpretations of Daniel and Revelation, the Bible says that the wise “will” understand them. Matthew 24:25; Daniel 12:10.

This book is said to be the “Revelation of Jesus.” He is its author; it is a message straight from Him. Revelation continues where the four gospels and the book of Acts left off, and shows us what Jesus has done since then, is doing now and will do for His church in the future. Revelation 1:19.

“The time is at hand.” This book of prophecy contained messages needed by the Church in John’s day, by the Church throughout its history and for us as individual Christians today. The message for today is especially relevant, for we are living in the “time of the end” and “the time is at hand” when the final events portrayed in the book of Revelation will sweep over the world and bring the great controversy to a spectacular conclusion.

1:4 There were seven literal churches in Asia to which John directed this letter. See notes on 1:20. Seven is also a symbol of perfection, wholeness, or completeness in prophecy. The term “seven churches” indicates the whole or complete church through all ages. The “seven spirits” denote the perfect Holy Spirit of God.

:5 Christ’s death on the cross bore witness to the truth of the righteousness of God’s character and of Satan’s malignant lies. Jesus is our “faithful Witness” “that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood.”

The term “first begotten of the dead,” could mean either first in time or first in importance. Since Moses, Lazarus and a number of others were raised from the dead before His own resurrection; Jesus is the foremost or most important of those raised from the dead. 1 Corinthians 15:20; Colossians 1:18. He is head of the church. He is the “second Adam,” the new head of the human race for those who have faith in Him. He is the “first fruits of the dead,” the preeminent one of the harvest of the saints of earth rose from the dead. He is the pattern of righteousness into whose image we will be conformed. Romans 5:12-19; 8:29.

1:6 When we receive Christ as our personal Lord and Saviour, we are forgiven, cleansed and made royalty as “kings and priests unto God!”

“To Him be Glory.” The glory, splendor, majesty and holiness of God are portrayed throughout the Bible. For some descriptions of God’s glory, see Isaiah 6:1-3; Ezekiel 10; Psalm 29; Daniel 7:9, 10; Exodus 24:17; 33:7-9, 18-23; 34:5-7, 29-35; 40:34-38; Mark 9:2-8.

1:7 Every eye will see Jesus at His Second Coming. It will be as visible as a flash of lightning on a dark night. Matthew 24:27. This breathtaking event will not be a secret, but will bring terror to those who have rejected His mercy.


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12:1-2 The Bible portrays the great controversy between Christ and Satan in terms of three characters: the Dragon, the Woman, and the Man Child. They are first introduced in Eden where the dragon won an initial engagement with the woman. Bitter conflict ensues between the serpent and the woman, between his seed, and her seed. Ultimate victory comes through a single Seed of the woman, who crushes the serpent’s head, at the same time suffering a deadly bite to the heel. Genesis 3:15. Chapter 12 of Revelation portrays the whole sweet of the drama from its origin in heaven, to Satan’s attack on Jesus, through the persecutions of the Dark Ages, until the final conflict at the time of the end.

Throughout the Bible a pure “woman” is a symbol of God’s true church while a harlot represents a corrupt church. Hosea 1:2; Ezekiel 16; 2 Corinthians 11:2.

She is said to be “clothed with the sun,” the glory of the gospel of Christ, and have “the moon under her feet,” the reflected glory of Christ as foreshadowed in the Old Testament sanctuary services and rituals. John 8:12; Colossians 2:11-17. The “crown of twelve stars” represents the twelve apostles. The woman who gives birth to Messiah represents the true church through its entire history—from Adam and the Jewish nation to the Christian Church.

12:3-6 The “great red dragon” is identified in verse 9 as Satan. However, he routinely uses others to persecute, deceive and destroy. Genesis 3:1-13. The “seven heads of ten horns and seven crowns” represents the nations or governments which Satan has used to persecute God’s people. See also Daniel 7:7; Revelation 13:1-5; 17:3, 7-12. In verse 4 we see an attempt to destroy Jesus at His birth, and can identify Pagan Rome in the person of King Herod as the agency Satan is working through. Matthew 2:13-18. In verse 6 the dragon forces the woman to flee into the wilderness for 1,260 years, the time when Papal Rome is in power persecuting God’s faithful church. Even though he uses others as his agents, the dragon is Satan.

The dragon casts a “third part of the stars to heaven…to the earth.” This represents the angels who joined Lucifer in his rebellion, and were cast out of Heaven with him. Revelation 12:7-9.

To “rule all nations with a rod of iron” references Psalm 2:9. This means that Christ will be victorious over His enemies. After His resurrection He was “caught up unto God.”

12:7-9 Here we are brought back in time to the very beginning of the Great Controversy between Christ and Satan when Lucifer, the foremost angel in Heaven, fostered rebellion and was expelled. Now he fights against Christ by attacking His people, His truth and His character. 1 Peter 5:8.

It is said that Satan “deceiveth the whole world.” Satan has effectively substituted truth with lies on many points including: the character of God, creation, His law, the Sabbath, the state of the dead and the way of salvation, to name just a few. Huge numbers of people, including many Christians, have been deceived into believing and supporting these lies. The only way to keep from being deceived is to have a firm grounding in Bible truth and a solid relationship with Jesus. The popularity and widespread acceptance of a doctrine does not mean that it is true.

12:10-12 The event of the death, resurrection, and enthronement of Jesus constitutes the decisive battle of the great controversy. It was at the cross that Satan was defeated (John 12:31-32; Luke 10:17-19). The proclamation goes forth: “Now the salvation and power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down.”

Satan is the “accuser of the brethren.” Zechariah 3:1. He presents to us and to God every sin, mistake and character flaw as a reason that we should belong to him as his rightful prey, but “the blood of the lamb” “cleanseth us from all sin.” 1 John 1:7. His “blood,” His strength and righteousness and sacrifice, joined to the “word of their testimony,” is powerful to overcome Satan. Our personal knowledge and love of Jesus binds us to Christ and His saving power. Our advocate says to Satan, “The Lord rebuke thee. Is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?” Zechariah 3:2.

Christ’s faithful people “loved not their lives unto the death.” They would rather die than dishonor Him. They love Jesus more than the trivial pleasures to be gleaned from a few decades of mortal existence. With Jesus as their Shepherd they do not fear the devil’s “great wrath.”

12:13-17 All heaven rejoices over the great victory. But the dragon now vents his wrath on his remaining earthly target, the woman. Whenever Christians remain true to Christ and will not be turned or compromise their beliefs, Satan’s anger is aroused and he excited persecution against them. The church was forced to flee to the uninhabited “wilderness: for “a time, and times, and a half a time,” the 1,260 year period of Papal domination. Millions of Christians were martyred during this time because they chose to obey the Bible instead of the decrees of Popes and church councils. The mountains of Europe and the wilds of Africa and Asia became their refuge, and the new land of America seemed divinely ordained as a stronghold of religious freedom.

At the end of time, shortly before Christ returns, the dragon will inspire his agents to make “war” on the “remnant,” those who have remained true and not apostasized. This remnant is said to “keep the commandments of God.” They are not trying to earn their way to heaven, but they keep them because they love their Creator and Savior. Jesus said, “If ye love me, keep my commandments.” John 14:15. The Holy Spirit living in them brings them into harmony with God’s law and with His character. As Jesus says through His prophet, “’I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.'” Psalm 40:8.

Jesus gives His “testimony” through His prophets. In the end of times the gift of prophecy will still be active in the remnant church. Acts 2:17; Revelation 19:10; 22:9.

: )

I own all but a very few of Walters DVDs. Total onslaught is a life changer !
But here, on this thread, my intent is to unfold the word completely, from it's original intent in context from the language it was written in Gods word. Once properly understood, the word then leads the open heart to receive all truth and the believer is thusly convicted of it upon their own investigations of it, and receive it gladly even if that means changing everything they thought they knew.
Thanks for your post...

God Bless
Stēkō Parrēsia

Drew, by the very grace of GOD through the blood of Christ Jesus.
"there shall come after us men whom shall garner great wealth using our system, and having done so shall seek to slam the door of prosperity behind them." George Washington

Too much for my brain to put in a short (or longer) comment.

But, I thank you for an interesting post and would ask that you keep an open mind, as many do not believe as many others do. Still, others might balk at what they could perceive as being preached at (i.e. my way or the highway). Actually, it took me a while to see where you were coming from with this post and I now know I am not being preached at. Rather, this is a difficult subject and it could make for interesting discussion. For that, I thank you.

I don't see the Woman as "A" Church. I see her as "The" Church. No buildings, no names, no organization, no labels, just faithfilled people of all walks of life and faiths which comprise God's "Church". I think it was Robert Schuller who said take away the ch from the front and back of the word and you're left with UR the Church.

The image John gives is fascinating and can be seen in different terms, depending on how a person perceives things. (See my earlier comment about how God wrote His message in many forms.) Deacon and I wrote comments about astrology/astronomy (both were the same back in the day, as the Magi show). The Sun, Moon, and 12 Stars have ancient (pre-Christian) meaning and the ancient meaning could well apply to these symbols. Deacon mentioned about the star/planet alignment at the time of the Savior's birth. The symbols in John's vision could also imply an alignment at the time of the Second Coming. (Maybe Venus being illuminated by the Sun, with the Moon directly below.)

I agree with you about "12" being the number of the Patriarchs and the Apostles; those who carried faith through to many generations. Could mean that faith crowns the Woman. Still, I can't help but think of the 12 Gates into the City. Seems to me the number 12 holds a deeper meaning that we cannot discount.

The Sun and Moon symbols, well, that gets a whole lot more complicated, yet they, in their ancient meanings, shed much light (no pun intended) onto the message of John's amazing image. Too much for one comment and I'm not saying I am correct. I am just presenting another view of that image.

“It is the food which you furnish to your mind that determines the whole character of your life.”
―Emmet Fox

No preaching, I like that.

Your idea of a " church " is precisely in line with who is Gods church; the word/term church was never meant to become indicative of a physical building but is meant to be " those who are abiding in Jesus ". I've personally been a member of 8 different Christian denominations in these last twenty odd years, it's been my experience to know that God has people in every single one of these " buildings ", some more, some fewer, but some in all. Denominations are representative of the title over a doorway, and not necessarily representative of Jesus, in other words the word/term denomination has become synonymous with building rather than being of Gods people.

In this study, I can only illuminate upon that which scripture actually references directly, those things that are deeper or parabalized the word does not go into detail upon. I would be untrue to the heart of the intent of my posting, to expand knowledge based upon the written word from the original by speculation into these hidden things no matter how true they are, for they are not written and thusly I must abstain from bringing them into my PRIMARY posts for each day.

Assuredly, God is in everything, most specifically, the stars which he calls each by name and holds the fast in their places. The wise men ( from Abrahams home town of Ur ) knew when and where the messiah was born by reading the stars and following one. Prophecies concerning stars ( fulfilled, America's dark day and night the stars fell 1833 ) , and other scripture all point to the truth you allude to.

God has laid it upon my heart to be thorough and to let Him lead others to Him in my doing so, the truth will " pop off the page " without my pointing it out, those who read, will not be able to deny it because Gods Spirit will convict their hearts and not my many words preaching.

God Bless

Drew, by the very grace of GOD through the blood of Christ Jesus.
"there shall come after us men whom shall garner great wealth using our system, and having done so shall seek to slam the door of prosperity behind them." George Washington

Confidence in Religion.

"Israeli Haredim rebel against army draft plan " -

Ultra-Orthodox Jews say Torah studies can protect Israel better than an army.
Read on ~

The true church has ALWAYS been of faith.

There is always a physical church, whether it was the physical seed of Abraham in the OT or the physical church in the new. Within that physical church, you find those who are of faith, those who trust in God and not on their own works or merits.

If that church

Is comprised of those of Faith , then yes.
But there were many times a building of wood and stone was absent.
Take all of Jesus's ministry as an example, a whole lot of church and nary a building iwith a name on it.
Or the church in 70ad, fleeing Jerusalem into the desert, then into Pella....

The church is of flesh, saved by faith, sanctified through faith, and purposed into action by faith unselfishly.

God Bless

Drew, by the very grace of GOD through the blood of Christ Jesus.
"there shall come after us men whom shall garner great wealth using our system, and having done so shall seek to slam the door of prosperity behind them." George Washington

The whole first century, and practically up to the 4th Century

met in each others 'homes, not in a 'church' building.....'sanctified' by the Magistrate. When Constantine, the first 'Christian' Emperor, came to power, all that changed, and the visible church has been trying to be part of TPTB ever since. The 'underground' or 'invisible' church still is a part of the 'visible' church, even in places where that church is severely restricted.

"Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern." ~~C.S. Lewis
Love won! Deliverance from Tyranny is on the way! Col. 2:13-15

My thoughts on your question:

"at what point did the Church go from the physical Israel into those who by faith become the spiritual Israel"

It would seem to me that there is no specific point in which this took place, it was rather, transitional, starting with Jesus and his birth, ministry, his death and resurrection, the continued spread of his message by the apostles, and finally the end of the temple system altogether with the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 A.D.

I suppose if one wanted a pivotal moment from the old to the new, it would be that destruction, the abomination of desolation, as it was prophesied by Daniel, and by Jesus in his Olivet Discourse.

It occurs at the cross.

But here's my issue, I'm getting side tracked into ten thousand different conversations, thank God for His Spirit abiding lest I go haywire remembering which is what. so please bear with me , it might take me some time to get back and forth on this thread.
At the rending of the curtain in the Hagai hagaion ( most holy place, curtain thereof ) from top to bottom, the old system perished. Then at 34 AD when Stephen was stoned the prophecy in Daniel 9:24-27 was fulfilled and the physical nation Israel was no longer the " sole heir" to the message, but it was then to the Gentiles and the Jew through Faith in Jesus to carry Gods message to the world. ( make note that when the Gentiles inquired directly to Jesus at the temple He said " Now my hour has come ..... ". ). But when the old passed, the new began, first to the Jew, then to all the world.

God Bless

Drew, by the very grace of GOD through the blood of Christ Jesus.
"there shall come after us men whom shall garner great wealth using our system, and having done so shall seek to slam the door of prosperity behind them." George Washington

I can't say that I disagree

with you. Of course the cross is important and a pivotal moment in more ways than one. What I am suggesting is it was not the final act in the drama occurring at that time if you will, as with Stephen

NKJV Matthew 24:1 Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

Wailing Wall.

+1, the verse you quoted Matt 24:2, is prophetic, and the believers have faith that it is True. It occurred exactly as mentioned, all toppled.
This verse raises a very important issue, that of the Wailing Wall.
Quoting yours, from above = "not one stone shall be left here upon another,".
We often see pictures/videos of the wall, with stones on top of each other. The jewish priests escort visitors to the site in JeruSalem, for prayers, and even inserting little notes/chits of paper with prayers in the cavities within the wall /space between stones, as if these are the walls of the destroyed temple. This is very misleading, and a cause of great disturbances before, & more strife later.
I wonder how many on DP have read any reports on this vital subject.
i.e. is the wailing wall part of the destroyed temple ?? No.


Your house is left unto you desolate....Matt 23:38, Luke 13:35
In the Matt. 24:1 Jesus is referring to the literal destruction of Jerusalem and its temple, which as you stated happened in 70 ad.
And it was in a sense the end of the system of blood sacrific, and because the Pharrisees failed to understand the type that system represented, the very life and ministry of Jesus, they missed the savior. They had long ago left off attending to Gods plan for them, and they never really got around to doing it, that is to carry the gospel of the savior the " sanctuary TYPE " pointed too that was coming for everyone. Jesus was constantly pointing this out to the Pharrisees in parables , the vineyard workers, the bad steward, the talents, the 10 virgins, the sower, the prodigal son........... The salvation message begins within 40 days after Jesus rose from the dead, and went from @120 men to well over 4120 men in a few weeks time by the outpouring of the spirit. But these Jews, now Christians ( but then were still called Jews for @ 100 years, or " the way ". ) we're in the NEW and Not the Old, the old, or " preview of Jesus " passed away upon the cross, it went to ALL MEN when Stephen was stones and Saul converted by Gods very grace. but it was supposed to have always gone forth to all men.
I think we are talking about the same, and we both agree, but I'm putting more into the picture in that all of it was going on then.

God Bless

Drew, by the very grace of GOD through the blood of Christ Jesus.
"there shall come after us men whom shall garner great wealth using our system, and having done so shall seek to slam the door of prosperity behind them." George Washington

I really have to ask these questions.

If it is your intent to begin a serious study of John's Apocalypse, then why did you start smack dab in the middle of it? Revelation is to be read from beginning to end, from its start to its finish. It's like sitting down to watch a movie and skipping the first half of it.

Why would you think that the entire theme of Revelation pertains entirely to us, when clearly it was written to the 7 early churches as chapters 1-3 clearly state. Even the 70 to 80 years after Christ crucifixion dating has been refuted and rather well I might add.

That said, may I humbly suggest you start from the beginning of John's vision.

Introduction and Benediction

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

First Things 1st.

+1, for yours = "to begin a serious study".

No problem

i will just go do this somewhere else, to many control freak trying to write my script and play God here.

Let me know how that works in your " revolution ".

god Bles

Drew, by the very grace of GOD through the blood of Christ Jesus.
"there shall come after us men whom shall garner great wealth using our system, and having done so shall seek to slam the door of prosperity behind them." George Washington

Sorry Steadfast

It was not my intent to "play God" with your script. John's vision is hard enough for people to wrap there heads around. Including myself. Start at he beginning, go slow and let it unfold before you, as it was done for John, and let it sink in for others.

Now if your intent is to teach and preach, and not be challenged with an apposing view, then I assure you, your on the wrong site. Never the less I was interested in what you had to say. Good Luck and God Bless.

Actually it wasn't you

And I owe you an apology , I thought I had responded to another's comment further down, and posted to you. And because of my hurt feelings I didn't do the right thing and change it from you to them, and for this I am appolgizing.

Please read my reply to the comment just below this this one for my reasons for doing a Rev 12 study. But your correct, it would be better to start at the beginnings of a book.

What irked me is this: someone had the audacity to say I'm ( and about 2 billion others ) are using an incorrect name, and we don't know our savior because of this. Like God almighty would let billions be deceived in such a manner.
God has scant favor for those who teach " private interpretations and secret understandings ". God does not change, and he does nothing without first telling his prophets of it to tell us.

God Bless

Drew, by the very grace of GOD through the blood of Christ Jesus.
"there shall come after us men whom shall garner great wealth using our system, and having done so shall seek to slam the door of prosperity behind them." George Washington

No apology needed.

Yes I agree the name issue is a little ridiculous.I have found that people convict themselves of all sorts of things. What most fail to see however, is it is their convictions and theirs alone, but most importantly they fail to extend liberty to one another, which we all have in Jesus Christ. They would rather convict you as well.

"Humbly Suggest",

Steadfast, please do Not take offense, No one wants to control 'your' script. Please read Jpadgett's post again, re - "I humbly suggest" that you start from the beginning.

He is so right, = follow the Text, & consider it as an encouragement, we will enjoy & share your work & endeavor, to explain & magnify the Word. Hope you will continue. With best wishes.

Thanks, but

I'm questioning why I'm even involved here, not that I don't want all to be free....but how God gets us there is vastly different from what's here.
I'm going to take a few days break, in prayer to discover my Lords will on this....

God Bless

Ps. It was a good suggestion, and IF I return to post at all, I will heed the advice and start from the beginning.
My intent was to clear up a bad misconception I saw someone spouting about Rev 12 on another thread. Rather than embarrass them, or hijacking someone else's thread, I just started a new thread here. I didn't state my reasons, because I didn't want anyone to go " searching " for the other thread and causing consternation.
I know that everyone's got feelings, and I earnestly try to do no man harm, especially when discussing Gods word. To many people lost because of appearance of ego, unkindness, controlling, judgement, and all around bad evangelizing.... And those ARE my good days ! I am so tired of turning people away from my Lord, my heart burns that they know the love, grace and overwhelming goodness of Jesus.... Please dear Lord, fill our hearts, give us right spirits and cleanse us from inequity.

God Bless

Drew, by the very grace of GOD through the blood of Christ Jesus.
"there shall come after us men whom shall garner great wealth using our system, and having done so shall seek to slam the door of prosperity behind them." George Washington

I apologize, Steadfast...

... if my questions below contributed to your decision to break off your Bible study. I meant them as honest questions, not as criticism. God bless, Liberty patriot.

A Constitutional, Christian conservative who voted for Ron and stands with Rand

Not you either Andrew.

And since I've made a mess here, I might as well apologize to you for leaving you with the thought it might be your fault as well.
One of these days my Lord will be done sanctifying me, He promises me He will, but alas that day was obviously not today.

Are you aware that although I'm clearly a Protestant now, that I was born and raised a Catholic?

If you want to link, please feel free to do so.

God Bless

Drew, by the very grace of GOD through the blood of Christ Jesus.
"there shall come after us men whom shall garner great wealth using our system, and having done so shall seek to slam the door of prosperity behind them." George Washington

Steadfast, since you have put your content back up...

... please allow me to offer a piece of friendly technical advice. You are placing your sections of Scripture study within the Original Post itself, and there is probably a size limit that you will end up exceeding if you continue with that technique. I suggest that you switch to posting the verse studies as responses to the OP (the Mod Suggestion Box now has over 3000 responses, so there appears to be significant "response capacity"). There will be an added benefit, in that commentators can respond to the particular "verse study" that they wish to comment on.

Regarding another issue, you wrote:

"Are you aware that although I'm clearly a Protestant now, that I was born and raised a Catholic?"

I admit that a concern that I did not broach motivated my earlier questions to you, in that many who raise the "Who is the true Church" issue from within the Book of Revelation end up pushing a stridently anti-Catholic message (I am not saying that you would have done so, but the concern did cross my mind). While I am not Catholic, I do not want to promote (through cross-linking) an anti-Catholic thread.

Respectfully, I am not sure that it is helpful to pursue an answer to the "Who is the true Church" question. I think that we need to keep in mind that, from God's point of view, the period of time since 1054 (the Great Schism between West and East) is only a moment, and that, really, the current disunity within the Church is just a temporary "family feud." We therefore, in my opinion, should be spending our energy not on arguing about who the "true Church" is, but on trying to reconcile with our brothers and sisters. We will be one united Bride of Christ in heaven, so shouldn't we start acting like it here on earth? I don't mean this as a criticism of you, only as food for thought.

If you have not already done so, you may be interested in browsing through the content of my Agape' Forum, particularly my posts on The Christian Priesthood and Confession and Sexuality: Divine and Human. (My shorter pieces include What I Believe, Confess, and Hope For - Part 2: The Gospel, which is actually an electronic reproduction of the "Gospel flier" that I hand out when witnessing; Reconciliation, which illustrates my own perceived ground of assurance; and A Letter to Christ, which reveals and applies my spiritual emphasis.)

Something else I posted just today is A Hymn and a RANT, which you might find thought provoking. (Even if you don't care for the "RANT" you will get a beautiful hymn out of it.)

On a personal note, I lived in Olympia, Washington from 1984 to 1994. While I do not miss the weather, the scenery is pretty, and I was impressed by Bellevue the couple times that I made my way over there. God bless, Washingtonian Liberty patriot.

A Constitutional, Christian conservative who voted for Ron and stands with Rand