27 votes

Would you be better off under anarchism?

The only reason to institute a government is to protect liberty. People create governments to protect themselves and their property. In doing so, the people assume that the government will be cheaper to operate than what would have otherwise been stolen from them by other sources of theft.

Seeing as how the US central government is looting the people for around 50 cents on the dollar, do you think it's worth the price? Or, do you think you would be better off under anarchism? Simply, do you think thieves would steal more from you (in the absence of government) than what the government currently takes?

Further, if you believe government is necessary, what are your suggestions for successfully limiting the powers of such an institution? We've seen that constitutions - at least in their most modern forms - don't really work that well over the long haul. Are constitutions perfectible? Can government power ever really be limited for the duration?



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sitting...

I have not assumed people will always be just. I do remember the bit about "because men are not angels," but Madison was wrong on that. It is precisely because men are not angels, that one ought never agree to be ruled over by them. It's as simple as that.

When you agree to the principle that other men have the right to rule over you, then you are in no position to "limit" how they rule. And because they are not angels, you end up being ruled by tyrants.

The answer is to remove your consent to be ruled. When the predominant recognition in society has come around to this unavoidable conclusion, then you have a general rejection of the notion of authority, that is, you have anarchy.

Natural laws exist providing a framework that spells out what "just" means. That has nothing to do with government. Other kinds of laws (and there are other kinds---most of them, in fact) simply spell out how those who are perceived as rulers will exploit those who are ruled. They spell out the particulars of enslavement.

I'm not sure it is easy to mete out justice via roaming gangs. Sounds like government to me.

You said:

"I'm not sure it is easy to mete out justice via roaming gangs. Sounds like government to me."

What is government? One dictionary definition is "the governing body of a nation, state, or community". In essence we are talking about human relations.

There are many forms of governance: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government#The_dialectical_form...

Anarchy as defined at the above link:
"Anarchy has more than one definition. In the United States, the term "anarchy" typically is used to refer to a society without a publicly enforced government or violently enforced political authority.[24][25] When used in this sense, anarchy may[26] or may not[27] be intended to imply political disorder or lawlessness within a society.
Outside of the U.S., and by most individuals that self-identify as anarchists, it implies a system of governance, mostly theoretical at a nation state level. There are also other forms of Anarchy that attempt to avoid the use of coercion, violence, force and authority, while still producing a productive and desirable society.[28][29]"

...yet just like idealized Libertarianism, there are no examples of longstanding Anarchic societies because both fly in the face of real world human behavior. Both function as points of inspiration at best, dreamworlds at worst.

Of course

Broadly speaking.

But it's a little more nuanced than that about the process. It couldn't happen all at once or there would be problems.

As an intermediate step I would like to see megastates break apart. The US is uniquely equipped to do this, which is why the bad guys are so afraid. Without megastates like the feds or the EU to censor the internet I think the message will be uncontainable.

I admit I'm a bit fearful of an abrupt transition. People have had morality programmed out of them, and it has been replaced with respect for, or rather worship of, authority. An authority respecting populace is going to likely want to immediately replace a state with another that is offering them the most out of the deal.

Fundamentally what makes a sheeple is having had their morality purged. There are only wolves, but they will pick a wolf and call him 'protector', and the wolf will be happy to oblige.

So I think competing nation-states is probably the best hope, to give sheeple time to recover their humanity. Then they will reject the wolf.

I could be wrong, maybe there's a faster way.

i like the way you said this

"People have had morality programmed out of them, and it has been replaced with respect for, or rather worship of, authority".

This is a profound statement...
Thank you.

But to add my two cents.......you could get 38 state houses to pass an amendment to the Constitution nullify the Constitution and return to the “Articles of Confederation”. It is the only LEGAL, NON-VOILIENT AND BINDING WAY OF reining the USG in.

Indeed the Articles would be

Indeed the Articles would be a great step.

When the economic house of cards collapses it could happen, unless they enact a martial state.

Unfortunately all evidence points to them preparing to do this. We live in dangerous times.

As for morality, one reason I am so fond of the American stream of Christianity is they hold that morality is only determined by god. I don't feel that personally but it essentially boils down to what I do think is true, that morality is only determinable by the individual, and that ceding that authority to any other human can only lead to evil in the long run.

We are moral agents.

We can abdicate the power to make effective our choices, but we can never abdicate the responsibility for that choice, or responsibility for the actions others use that abdicated power. If we do cede some power it should only be to those we have the capacity to constantly monitor, ie very local.

If you don't see your local cop on a daily basis, and know well his doings, you really have done evil in granting him power, in my understanding.

tasmlab's picture

50-10,000 sovereigns

I agree with breaking up the mega-states. If we just dissolved the constitution and got rid of the Federal level, I doubt 50 smaller states wouldn't have enough power to start wars overseas and probably not be as attractive for corporatism anywhere near the same scale.

If we got to a 1,000 countries or more in the the geo currently held by the US, anarchism/minarchism etc., would just be continued cocktail party conversation. (It is already, but I mean our complaints would be more nit-picky)

Currently consuming: Gatto: "Underground history of education..", FDR; Wii U; NEP Football

You pose an interesting question,

but how do you figure that the gov't take 50 cents of every dollar? I think my family paid about 15-20% in federal income taxes last year, we don't have state income tax, and then maybe another 3-5% for property tax. Of course, that is still about 18- 25% more than they should be taking!

You pay a tax on each gallon of gas

Then there's sales taxes. And if you want to improve your property there's all of those expensive permits, those are a tax. Everybody you do business with is taxed and they pass that onto you. Inflation is a tax!!!!

From cradle to grave the average Amerikan is taxed 75% of everything they've earned. And if you are smart enough, or maybe just lucky enough to die with Millions, the state takes a whack right off the top!

"It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere".
--Voltaire

It's hard not to be a menace to society when half the population is happy on their knees. - unknown

No one

Hey, I'm not trying to defend the system here, and have already stated I don't believe we should be taxed at all, but no one forces you to buy gas or any other consumer goods so I don't see how sales tax should count. And while I do agree permitting costs are excessive that is not a yearly expense. I think I've spent a total of $250 in my 40 years on this earth on building permits.Please site your source for the statement that 75% of income is taxed. I just don't see how you get those numbers? Please show me the math.

I read it some years ago in a Future of Freedom Foundation

newsletter. I went looking for it on the web and can't find the article. This was when they printed out the letter, now it's via email.

I never said 75% of income is taxed, just that you're taxed and taxed and taxed. No matter where you turn you pay a tax on it. Building permits was just one example because I'm dealing with/ignoring that one right now

I don't know how you survive without gas in Amerika, so to me you are pretty much forced to pay that tax.

Here are a few more taxes you pay, you may not pay all of them, but surely some of them...

Accounts Receivable Tax
Building Permit Tax
Capital Gains Tax
CDL license Tax
Cigarette Tax
Corporate Income Tax
Court Fines (indirect taxes)
Deficit spending
Dog License Tax
Federal Income Tax
Federal Unemployment Tax (FUTA)
Fishing License Tax
Food License Tax
Fuel permit tax
Gasoline Tax
Hunting License Tax
Inflation
Inheritance Tax Interest expense (tax on the money)
Inventory tax IRS Interest Charges (tax on top of tax)
IRS Penalties (tax on top of tax)
Liquor Tax
Local Income Tax
Luxury Taxes
Marriage License Tax
Medicare Tax
Property Tax
Real Estate Tax
Septic Permit Tax
Service Charge Taxes
Social Security Tax
Road Usage Taxes (Truckers)
Sales Taxes
Recreational Vehicle Tax
Road Toll Booth Taxes
School Tax
State Income Tax
State Unemployment Tax (SUTA)
Telephone federal excise tax
Telephone federal universal service fee tax
Telephone federal, state and local surcharge taxes
Telephone minimum usage surcharge tax
Telephone recurring and non-recurring charges tax
Telephone state and local tax
Telephone usage charge tax
Toll Bridge Taxes
Toll Tunnel Taxes
Traffic Fines (indirect taxation)
Trailer Registration Tax
Utility Taxes
Vehicle License Registration Tax
Vehicle Sales Tax
Watercraft Registration Tax
Well Permit Tax
Workers Compensation Tax

I could add to this list with things like license plate registration, that's a tax. Mandatory Auto Insurance is a tax to me as well. Remember when they lobbied on how it would reduce insurance costs? Has your insurance been going down since they mandated everyone pay the Corporate Insurance Giants?

From the moment you are born until the day you die a majority of your wealth goes into taxes

"It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere".
--Voltaire

It's hard not to be a menace to society when half the population is happy on their knees. - unknown

Great point! Here's a concern

I think even in Anarchism there need to be non-governmental/non-coercive ways
to solve the tragedy of the commons... what do you think?

Has anyone heard/thought of viable solutions for this and similar matters...?

I think Anarchy can work on a local level,

trying to get all of the slaves nationwide to agree to it will be impossible. In the future there will be pockets of freedom to be found here and there

"It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere".
--Voltaire

It's hard not to be a menace to society when half the population is happy on their knees. - unknown

Anarchy cannot be "fixed",

Anarchy cannot be "fixed", it's a temporary state of transition. If you really think about it, all human created things are transitory, nothing is immortal. It's just that some states of being are longer lasting than others.