4 votes

How to Secure the Border? Your thoughts please...

Do you think the border can be secured? If so, how do you suggest the border be secured? Should a fence/wall be built? Should the border be militarized (further)? What is an acceptable amount of money (taken from the public trough) to spend on your desired program? How much are you willing to (make the people) pay per rejected immigrant? Do you think it's practical to deport all of the illegals?

Do you think the overall productivity of the US is increased or decreased by immigrants? Does the GDP increase or decrease when there is more labor capital? Should businesses be fined for hiring undocumented immigrants? Do you believe fining businesses helps or hurts the economy? Would fining businesses increase or decrease the number of immigrants taking advantage of the welfare system? Is immigration the real problem? Is the problem actually a poor economy and the existence of the welfare state?

I've provided the questions. You can provide your own answers, but I will give my personal take on the issue. Further, the above questions should be considered by anyone considering immigration reform.

I believe immigration should be much more open. Inexpensive labor can greatly benefit the economy. In my opinion, there should be an easy process whereby immigrants can enter the country and be given a residency status that allows them to work and live but prevents them from eligibility for voting or welfare assistance (including unemployment benefits). If after ten years (or some minimum time), if they can provide proof that they have worked continuously, they would be allowed to apply for naturalization. There would be no limit on the number of people entering the country, but upon entering, the contractual agreement would include that at least one family member - where a family would be defined as a significant other and dependent children - would have to provide proof of employment within six months or a year of residency. Under the contract, they would be deported without question upon discovery that the contract was broken to never be accepted for entry again (or possibly after some long duration). This solution would cut down on freeloaders and increase the productivity of the country.

Personally, I believe attempting to secure the border through militarization will never be successful and will only lead to more erosion of our liberties.

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I figured you would quit...

You're argument is untenable.

You suppose that government is the answer to your qualms with immigration. All the while you talk about how the government has been quite ineffective at enforcing immigration laws already on the books. I guess you also suppose that the government would magically become more effective if only the "correct" laws were passed. If you do not, your argument was defeated before you stated it.

Good day (night).

fireant's picture

Damn right it is, if it is being invaded.

Would you be living in a free home if every Tom dick and harry could just wander in at will?

Undo what Wilson did

Making such a statement supposes that...

a "free" nation is one that a single individual controls - analogous to a home.

Do you own the United States? Should you be able to refuse entry to a person that someone else has welcomed?

Suppose that I owned a property that I wished to sell. After negotiation, I finally reached a deal with a person currently residing in Mexico. Is it your right to interfere with that transaction - even if they don't belong to your club entitled "We the People of the United States"?

people can buy property in

people can buy property in the usa all the time.. permanent residence and political rights don't come with the deed.... entry without any property is more the norm, followed by the draining resources from generous public services... deal with reality, the typical immigrant isn't buying property... hes joining a community of what amounts to colonists angling for the amnesty they expect and will get, and using numbers and political clout to join the already existing coalition against property rights and the constitution.

Well BILL3, what is your solution?

Suppose you are correct and every immigrant comes to the US with the intention to destroy the Constitution and all it stands for, how does BILL3 suggest to stop it?

my solution is to know whats

my solution is to know whats going to happen, occasionally berate stupid people, and take care of myself. as conditions turn out as i expect they will, i take advantage of them, and the world goes on as it always has.

So you admit that you have no solution

Thus, you are full of hot air. Just as I suspected.

You were defeated before you began. Your "solution" is that (paraphrasing) "nothing can be done about it so I'll hide out in my cave." A true problem solver accepts reality and moves to find a beneficial solution. The Marines are onto something when they say, "Improvise, Overcome, & Adapt."

China is the most populous nation on earth

India is 2nd.

Their per capita annual income must be the highest, huh. It has nothing to do with productivity, education, etc.

And to those 20,000,000 unemployed or underemployed U.S. citizens ..."Screw you!" So what if your a citizen. Citizenship means nothing. I feel as much kinship and sympathy for my new found immigrant friend as I do for you.

we shouldn't stop at the

we shouldn't stop at the mexican border. we should make it known to the entire world that there is no limit or legal restriction to full entry and citizenship. if your ethics are consistent, that is ethically correct. if your economic principles are valid, global wage arbitrage to the lowest common wage for every form of employment will be a boon to everyone.

can we get a show of hand starting w dwalters on approval of the above plan?

how many people do you think we can get next year. 10, 15 million?

wut... cat got yer tongue?

You've made this response below, and I have answered it...

Maybe you should take the time to read rather than double posting.

You have continually stated how useless the government has been at immigration policy while advocating more government solutions to immigration policy. Are you actually serious? Or, are you just pulling my leg?

the govt has not been useless

the govt has not been useless at immigration policy.. this IS its policy, to keep the border open against the will of the national majority as well as the border states. the policy you support.

Then, how do you suppose more legislation will solve...

the problem?

ya took ya long enough.. my

ya took ya long enough.. my reply below lol

If everyone had to fend competely for themselves....

....and there was ZERO socialism like there was when my grandparents came, would we need to secure the border?

So, since there is socialism, what more needs be done than station the border states' national guard along their own border?

Does that require billions of dollars, drones, every piece of data in the country to be surveilled or national ID cards?

Simply permit people to defend and protect their own

property, instead of permitting the government to say, "We'll defend your property for you if you will give up the right to defend it yourself."

"Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern." ~~C.S. Lewis
Love won! Deliverance from Tyranny is on the way! Col. 2:13-15

nothing like slave labor to pick our GMO cotton

and strawberries, and build our government big money roads, and by all means we need gardeners and maids for our political elite.

Hell just scrap the Constitution and The United States, let's just have one world religion, one world government, open borders and all the rest that goes with the globalist agenda.

A ruling elite and then all the rest of us... nice.

How is it slave labor?

The minimum wage should be abolished anyway. As long as people are not forced to work and they can quit at their discretion, it is not slave labor.

Further, I think people would flock here because of the rights (supposedly) afforded by the Constitution, not to scrap them.

You're overstepping with the comments on a one world religion, one world government, and the globalist agenda.

caste labor

The institution of a caste labor system would be more accurate. An almost infinite supply of low wage workers to displace Americans who won't work for illegal alien pay. Instead of building a fence, CEOs should be tossed in prisons if they knowingly hire illegal aliens. When prisons start filling with cheating employers, job opportunities for the illegal alien caste will nearly disappear. Illegal aliens will find their way back home. Let's not fence them in.

I'm fantasizing of course. The CEO of Tyson will not be arrested for profiting from low wage illegal alien workers who replaced unionized American meatpackers twenty years ago. Sure, the chicken is 10 cents less a pound but we pay higher taxes extending unemployment, job training, and providing welfare for now unemployed Americans.

i think what he means is that

i think what he means is that there is an endless supply of desperate people in the world willing to work for subsistence wages, a standard of living akin to slavery, albeit voluntary. well, without the security slavery provides during sickness and infirmity (as a capital asset owned and requiring maintenance).

and all you need do is open all doors, knock down all the walls, and you get to compete with a potentially endless pool of such. well, unless you're protected by the government or semi govt protections on your industry like attorneys and politicians...

So your solution is more government while you profess...

how government has been useless?

no i just explained what he

no i just explained what he meant because you didn't understand, i didn't profess anything or offer a solution.

but somehow the west managed to have a high standard of living and a high degree of liberty for a long period of time know as classical liberalism without feeling the need to import millions of paupers and export all production to colonies of subsistence level de facto slave labor.

Don't give away freebies.

If people are productive and not destructive : fraud, theft or threatened force. What's the big deal?

Free includes debt-free!

Drones

Drones can enforce the border without bullets. All they have to do is snap a picture, upload it to a database, and then go catch them with evidence in hand. The technology is so advanced now that there is absolutely no need for any kind of structural fence, wall, or even border patrol agents. Local police should easily be able to remedy the problem, but their hands are being tied by the federal government.

Every immigrant crossing the border illegally can be watched from the sky...either by a drone, or by satellite.

Americans continue to act as if this technology does not exist.

If they really wanted to enforce the border, they could...but they don't because they want to eliminate borders, and the entire notion of national sovereignty.

There's a simple solution, but they don't fix it on purpose.

Never be afraid to ask simple questions.

More drone use? In the context of modern (ab)use...

I would say that would further erode civil liberties.

Essentially you are saying, "If we only allow the government to use drones to secure the border, that privilege will not be abused."

lol was this a drone

lol was this a drone commercial

I never thought I would be an

I never thought I would be an advocate of drone technology, but when it comes to enforcing the border they make sense. Let the illegal immigrants and drug runners shoot at the drones, not American border agents.

Using drone technology seems like a logical way of enforcing the law when it comes to border security, and border security alone.

Never be afraid to ask simple questions.

using drones for anything is

using drones for anything is prob the dumbest thing anyone ever sold to the public lately. those hang gliders cost like 50 million a piece to shoot bullets from the sky? the government isn't interested in stopping drug runners, if it was it would stomp them out like pests and bomb out and poison their crops lol. as for the people walking across non violently... not sure what good drones would be. 1 year of sending back the majority that come on foot w a a few poland spring bottles, they trickle would stop of its own accord. really not a difficult problem if anyone in charge wanted to solve it.

Bombing Central America seemed to work in the 80's

Not offering a buffet of benefits for coming may help. (just kidding about the bombing)

I would say

just don't secure the border. Any terrorist threats should be dealt with by an educated and responsible society armed to the teeth. Immigration is not a problem unless it is subsidized so just stop subsidizing it. Problem solved.

not to take the bait, but you

not to take the bait, but you can probably find enough volunteers among the 70% of americans who want the border controlled to cross hands across the border twice and provide tour guides back to mexico for groups of 7.

or you can just ask mexico how they do it.

the idea that its actually logistically difficult to make attempting crossing the border more trouble than its worth is a little dumb.

if you think the government is trying but just can't figure it out, with its 21,000 border agents, its x million dollar budget, infrared satellites, motion detectors, fences, basic geographical intel on where the routes and crossings actually take place, and giant falcon headed drones w laser beams coming out of their eyes... you're pretty naive, or just willfully obtuse.

however, if your principles are correct, let's carry them to their logical conclusions.

we shouldn't stop at the mexican border. we should make it known to the entire world that there is no limit or legal restriction to full entry and citizenship. if your ethics are consistent, that is ethically correct. if your economic principles are valid, global wage arbitrage to the lowest common wage for every form of employment will be a boon to everyone.

can we get a show of hand starting w dwalters on approval of the above plan?

how many people do you think we can get next year. 10, 15 million? lets get it so that the wage and living standard disparity between the poorest and richest countries reaches parity and equal average by 2020.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yM3MCzycoM