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Am I the only one on DP that thinks Zimmerman was guilty?

You know I think back to when this whole Trevon Martin shooting broke. People were outraged that Zimmerman was not charged. I mean whites and blacks alike.

Then something changed. Somehow this became a race issue.

Who was really standing their ground that night. Zimmerman who had a gun, or Trevon Martin.

A seventeen year old is dead. What did he do? How did Zimmerman end up in a physical fight with Trevon Martin? Martin wasn't looking for trouble, he hadn't robbed anyone. This kid who was walking along eating skittles blapping on his cell phone just decided he was going to beat Zimmerman to death.

No one will ever convince me that Trevon Martin instigated a fight that night. Zimmerman was a tough guy with a gun, and an vigilante mind set.

Zimmerman was looking for trouble that night and he found it, he just didn't expect that Martin was going to turn the tables on him.

How the hell did this issue get turned around?

No one knows what really happened that night. I do know that Trevon was on that property legally and unarmed, and I do know Zimmerman was told NOT to follow him.

I think he obviously ignored that advice, followed Martin and attempted to detain him and it got physical.

Martin got the better of him Zimmerman shot him.

Just think for minute how this would have turned out if Zimmerman had not pursued Martin. Martin would have made it to his destination and none of this would have happened, or what id Zimmerman was not armed? He would have gotten the shit kicked out of him and learned a dam good lesson and Trevon Martin would still be alive.

Now have fun down voting me but before you do think about the original facts and how this whole tragedy began.



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Zimmerman acted recklessly

He is not a murderer, but he acted recklessly. I would hazard a guess that Dr. Paul would agree with me.

What did he do that was reckless?

Show me someone who thinks Zimmerman acts recklessly and I'll show you someone unfamiliar with the case.


"Know what you know, know what you don't know, and understand and appreciate the distinction."

Minarchism
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Again...

When you get your CWP in the state of Florida, they tell you not approach anyone you suspect to be dangerous. They tell you to attempt to get away from the threat at all costs, not leave the security of your vehicle and go in the direction they were last seen. They tell you to only use your weapon if you see someone in immediate danger of being killed, or if you have been cornered and can't escape, which would apply to Zimmerman... if he wouldn't have been stalking the person who "attacked him". Let me ask you, do you really think it's apropriate to stalk someone and harrass them, and then call it "self defense" when you kill them? He acted recklessly by NOT standing his ground, i.e. staying in his car. I don't understand why so many Ron Paul supporters think this guy was being a responsible gun owner. It's douchebags like Zimmerman who are giving Liberals ammo to use against responsible gun ownership in this state.

The Same

Argument is being used over and over, "He "Stalked" him, and Harrassed him" so it his fault." Firstly, That is false, and the evidence shows so, and secondly, You have no right to Physically attack someone, as Trayvon did, just because you are being followed.

The point is, What you are saying happened to back up your belief of guilt, IS FACTUALLY INCORRECT.

Get it, He didnt "stalk" anyone, He was attacked, and in SELF DEFENCE, shot a man.

Two acts of Agression happend,

1 - Zimmerman was bashed around the head

2 - Martin was shot an killed

Logic, Basic logic, shows which of these occured first.

It is a clear cut case of Self defence, and anyone who thinks otherwise based upon the evidence presented is in complete and utter denial.

I do not understand, how here on the DP that so many are trusting the MSM's version of events over the actual evidence presented.

I would like to think we have ALOT of trolls here, but I get the feeling that the ignorance on this subject is massive and widespread.

No

there are approximately two of you

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."-- Albert Einstein

C'mon! The reason we are

C'mon! The reason we are fighting to keep the 2A is so we can defend ourselves. Is it not obvious that this case is being politicized to a) win elections and b) discredit our right to defend ourselves and family with a gun.

Even after our justice system found him not guilty...on the count of self defense...the msm and the administration are treating him as if he was the bad guy and there is a flaw in the system. The DOJ is now going to go after him on a federal civil rights case...the MOST liberal department in the DOJ. They are going to try to discredit our state justice system and choose which cases they agree with and disagree and change the outcome to fit their liberal agenda.

I cannot believe the op still has blinders on.

I wholeheartely agree with the OP

As a Florida resident who carries a firearm, I can tell you that when you take the test to get your CWP, they specifically tell you not to go out looking for trouble. They make it clear that having a CWP doesn't make you a cop. They tell you that if you can avoid a confrontation, you are OBLIGATED to do that. While we don't know everything that transpired that night. We do know that Zimmerman left his property (his car), and ventured onto other people's property to assess the situation. Minutes later Trayvon was dead.

I keep hearing people talk about Zimmerman's right to defend himself. But what about Trayvon's right to defend himself?!?!? If a guy is following me in his vehicle. And then when I hide, he gets out of his car and approaches me with a gun. I might try to beat the s*** out of him too. The bottom line is, while this isn't 1st degree murder, his actions were absolutely reckless and he shouldn't be considered responsible enough to carry a concealed firearm. Having a CWP DOES NOT give you the right to be a vigilante. PERIOD

Your assumption is that Zimmerman ever confronted or

Attempted to confront Martin. From the 9-11 call Zimmerman was following at distance, and there is no support in your theory that he did, or intended to capture, detain, or confront Martin. As a neighborhood watch volunteer I say he had every right to walk the path that Martin walked simply to see if he entered a home through the front door, or if he was climbing into a broken window. But nothing the prosecution presented suggested that Zimmerman attempted to make contact with Martin.

He was profiled simply because Zimmerman did not recognize him as a regular member of the community, nothing more, and when a stranger is walking around or near my property late at night I would also be suspect of a stranger. What in the evidence presented makes you think Zimmerman ever approached martin at all? If you saw something suspicious at a neighbors house late at night, would you not take a double look if they were around someones home you knew they didn't beliong? Late at night, in the rain, Zimmerman saw a tall male he did not know walking through the yards of his neighbors, and being a member of the neighborhood watch he stepped into the yard to look where the individual was going, and the individual ran as if he had committed a crime. As noted on the 9-11 tape Zimmerman explains that "I lost him, he went around to the other side of the building" and from that point forward we have no idea what happened until the assault and shot was fired.

I'm not sure where anyone is getting anything more or less from the facts presented. Is it a gut feeling, or is there evidence me, the jury, the witnesses, the forensic expert, the eyewitnesses, and others in the pro self defense crowd share?

Always remember:
"It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds." ~ Samuel Adams
If they hate us for our freedom, they must LOVE us now....

Stay IRATE, remain TIRELESS, an

When you look at the profile

When you look at the profile of Zimmerman, you see someone who was really into this kind of stuff. He had made 67 calls in the past year to 911/emergency hotlines to report things like this.

Some people get a kick of those cheap thrills.

Personally, we know that Zimmerman initially followed Trayvon. We know that Trayvon was scared. We know that while being beaten, Zimmmerman feared for his life. We don't know if Zimmerman eventually stopped following Martin. If he actually went back to his car as he claimed. We don't know how aggressive Zimmerman was with Martin, except that he was very aggressive on the phone call.

On the flip side, we know little about Martin's character. Some tweets and texts about being a "gangster" does not make him one. The fact that people like Peter Schiff are immediately jumping on that really does make them racist. People talk like that; how many people on facebook say they are "gangsta".

What I have taken, is that Zimmerman is unrepentant and a liar. He's already changed his story a few times about what happened. At first, he said he followed him, then he said he didn't, then he changed his reasons why. At one point he said he never got out of the car. He lied about Martin and he struggling for the gun.

To me, I take in the fact that Zimmerman does appear to be an aggressive guy, plus the fact that he is a liar, and am more willing to believe that his and Martin's conflict was not so one-sided. Even if you say that Zimmerman did not intend to kill Martin (99% agree that he didn't), and that his life was in actual danger (not too sure; who knows if Martin wanted to kill Zimmerman), Zimmerman instigated the conflict. He bears some responsibility. He put it upon himself to do this neighborhood watch stuff, and as a direct consequence of his actions, an innocent 17-year-old is dead.

Plan for eliminating the national debt in 10-20 years:

Overview: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2010/09/12/my-plan-for-reducin...

Specific cuts; defense spending: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2011/01/03/more-detailed-look-a

Under your theory

all the residents who called the police are "wanta be cops?"

“He was so mellow and calm, very helpful and very, very sweet,” she said last week. “We didn’t really know George at first, but after the break-in we talked to him on a daily basis. People were freaked out. It wasn’t just George calling police … we were calling police at least once a week.”

Olivia Bertalan
Victim of Home Invasion
Retreat at Twin Lakes
Home with 9 month old son at the time

http://the-american-journal.com/zimmerman-neighbors-fear-bla...

But, he didn't just call the

But, he didn't just call the cops about break-ins. He called about "children playing in the street", on a "7-9 year old Black kid with a blue t-shirt", "trash in the roadway", "loud parties", etc. etc.

The record of the calls makes it seem like the guy is a combination of paranoid and as someone who is looking for trouble. Who calls 911 because there is trash in the roadway?

Plan for eliminating the national debt in 10-20 years:

Overview: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2010/09/12/my-plan-for-reducin...

Specific cuts; defense spending: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2011/01/03/more-detailed-look-a

Couldn't get passed the first

Couldn't get passed the first paragraph. He is now a criminal for calling police for suspicious people in the neighborhood?

Not what I said. I said that

Not what I said. I said that it points to a certain kind of psyche. Remember, I said that he probably deserved to get off not guilty due to the lack of evidence. But that doesn't mean that Zimmerman bears no ethical responsibility, nor does it mean that he isn't responsible for Martin's death.

Plan for eliminating the national debt in 10-20 years:

Overview: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2010/09/12/my-plan-for-reducin...

Specific cuts; defense spending: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2011/01/03/more-detailed-look-a

So an undercover cop

should not carry a gun? He is "following" his suspects. They could very well jump him. So, if the cop shoots the suspect then he shouldn't be considered responsible enough to carry a firearm?

GZ was on neighbourhood watch (similar to being a security guard - he is SUPPOSED to check out suspicious activities)- he saw something suspicious and called the cops - THEY asked him where Trayvon went to, which Zimmerman checked out and told them that he couldn't see him any longer. The cops then told Zimmerman to not bother trying to follow him any more. On the way back to his car he gets jumped - having the shit beat out of him. NO PROVOCATION FROM ZIMMERMAN. And you think Zimmerman should have just lay there and died? If Trayvon was worried about being followed why didn't HE call the cops? It was reported that he had his cell phone. Could it be that he has a record???????

George Zimmerman ISN'T A COP

If George Zimmerman was a cop, then this would be a completely different story. But he isn't a cop, and he wasn't then either. By the way I thought this group was against cops harrassing innocent citizens???

Let's remember that it turned out that Trayvon Martin wasn't breaking any law, didn't have any weapons and was a threat to no one until he was stalked, harrassed and threatend.

GZ was SELF APPOINTED neighborhood watch. The neighborhood didn't have or want a neighboorhood watch until he volunteered. Again, I am a strong second amendment advocate, and I can tell you... thanks to George Zimmerman, you'll see a change in the freedom gun owners have known here in this state. People in this state don't want vigilantes like GZ running around harassing people for walking while black.

...

Though civil rights demonstrators have argued Zimmerman should not have prejudged Martin, one black neighbor of the Zimmermans said recent history should be taken into account.

"Let's talk about the elephant in the room. I'm black, OK?" the woman said, declining to be identified because she anticipated backlash due to her race. She leaned in to look a reporter directly in the eyes. "There were black boys robbing houses in this neighborhood," she said. "That's why George was suspicious of Trayvon Martin."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/25/us-usa-florida-sho...

If George Zimmerman was a

If George Zimmerman was a cop, then this would be a completely different story. But he isn't a cop, and he wasn't then either. By the way I thought this group was against cops harrassing innocent citizens???

So according to you cops have special rights that regular people don't? If I want to follow someone in public I'll do so. It violates no one's rights.

Let's remember that it turned out that Trayvon Martin wasn't breaking any law, didn't have any weapons

Tell me what does having a gun have to do with it?

and was a threat to no one until he was stalked, harrassed and threatend.

You have no evidence of this, at all. He was never threatened, stalked or harassed.

GZ was SELF APPOINTED neighborhood watch. The neighborhood didn't have or want a neighboorhood watch until he volunteered.

Voluntarism, what a travesty of justice!!! Why does he need to appeal to the government to watch and take care of himself and his community?

Again, I am a strong second amendment advocate...

I find that extremely hard to believe.

"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."

Click Here To See The Candidates On The Record

Right Verrater

So according to you cops have special rights that regular people don't? If I want to follow someone in public I'll do so. It violates no one's rights.

That's my feeling on the subject. If Z had been a cop this wouldn't be a world wide argument.
HOWEVER - it should make absolutely NO difference. He WAS a "cop" at the time. He was talking to the cops on the phone, reporting suspicious activities in his neighbourhood. I don't care if he called them 20 times a day. Calling the cops is not a crime, unless you are making a false report. If someone is walking through your back yard, snooping around your stuff, do you have a right to watch them and call the cops? Or are you supposed to hide your head so you wont violate some possible law? Following is not a crime (I don't care if you have a CCW - it is NOT a crime to follow someone - unless they have a restraining order against you).

The Magic Badge Argument won't work here.

If it's wrong without a government costume and tin star, it's also wrong with it.

dynamite anthrax supreme court white house tea party jihad
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to be continued

You do not make sense

1) Having a CC does not mean you cannot walk in your neighborhood
2) Having a CC does not mean you cannot ask a kid wandering in your neighborhood what he is up to.

We do not "get to" own a gun in this country because the govt will let us IF we promise to not confront people wandering around near houses in our neighborhood.

A teen "defending" himself from being asked a question by an adult does not mean a right to break his nose and beat him unconscious.

Treyvon Martin committed a hate crime. He called GZ a "cracker", he punched him in the face, broke his nose, pounded him with his fists.

Treyvon Martin is not a hero and should not be honored, he is a racist.

Why didn't

Zimmerman pull out his gun before Trayvon got on top of him, you know, as a deterrent?

you never pull a gun unless

you never pull a gun unless you are going to use it.

This comment

from a prior police officer says something completely different:

http://www.dailypaul.com/292467/am-i-the-only-one-on-dp-that...

I don't see the comment you speak of

but I will say if that's what he said, he's full of shit.

In most state's pulling a gun without the intent to use it is called brandishing and will land you in jail. If you pull a gun without intent to use it you've just escalated an incident and can thus be found culpable if you have to use the firearm.

Almost every single credible firearms instructor will tell you not to do that.

"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."

Click Here To See The Candidates On The Record

See Below

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Because you cannot pull a gun over a verbal altercation

ANYONE with a CC in Florida is told that in training. You must wait until you are in serious jeopardy, with the gun completely concealed. You must believe that you are going to die or be seriously injured before that gun comes out. Otherwise, you have just committed a felony.

I didn't know

that. So in a way a CW makes you more powerful than a cop.

I can use a concealed weapon permit, conceal my weapon then go around and get into verbal altercations at my leisure, knowing if someone actually fights me (unaware of my gun) I can shoot them. Is my logic wrong?

Yes. Because if you HAD been

Yes. Because if you HAD been going around getting into verbal confrontations attempting to provoke an altercation there would be a series of witnesses who would be able to testify against you. A pattern of provoking fights while armed would not count in your favor.

Yes. You are wrong.

Yes. You are wrong.

Let me ask

you something. Somebody replied to one of my comments saying "Ninety percent of the time presenting your weapon stops the threat and nothing happens." and you never let a person get close enough to grab your weapon. Why didn't Zimmerman pull out his gun to defend himself before Trayvon got on top of him, you know, as a deterrent?