-50 votes

concerned letter from a distraught member, re: trayvon martin

Dear DailyPaul.com:

About me: I have been supporting Ron Paul since 2007 and before that I was a brainwashed neo-con supporter. The Daily Paul has been an essential website in my awakening into being and solidification as a libertarian. I don’t often post but I have in the past, most recently the Monday after the George Zimmerman verdict.

I cant wait for the attention on the Trayvon Martin case to die down. The trial has been used as a means to divide the populous, which partisans are taking advantage of to solidify the legitimacy and growth of the state.

Additionally, I want the attention to go away because the Daily Paul’s participation in the spectacle has astounded me. Not only do your reactions support a police state mentality, your exaltation of Zimmerman and celebration of the verdict have been drenched in demagoguery and unwarranted harshness. You are actively contributing to the divide of the people and falling on the side of tyranny.

Regardless of whatever stories or “facts” you believe in surrounding the death of Martin, there are certain truths that cannot be denied that place Zimmerman as a violator of liberty. Firstly, let us all agree, that self defense is a pillar of liberty. Had Zimmerman been just strolling down the street minding his own business and been attacked by Martin out of the blue, without a doubt Zimmerman would be justified in killing him. Of course this was not the case, but let us give Zimmerman the benefit of the doubt and pretend that the story his defense used during the trial is the complete, truthful account of events. Zimmerman was driving in his car and saw Martin walking down the street. Zimmerman slows down and starts following him at night, in the rain. Martin sees that Zimmerman was looking at him and continues towards his destination. Zimmerman doesn’t say “excuse me young man, I want to talk to you.” He doesn’t even say “hey what are you doing?!” Zimmerman pulls his car over and keeps an eye on Martin. He then drives towards Martin again. No one else is around. Martin, taking a short cut, is able to get out of the site of Zimmerman. Zimmerman stops his car, gets out and continues to follow Martin on foot. This is aggressive behavior! After perceiving the escalating threat, Martin, a young man not an old woman, decides to confront this stranger who has been following him back to his home. After strategically positioning himself, Martin, taking no more risks, launches his attack. Zimmerman, unable to fend for himself, takes out his gun and shoots Martin dead.

No matter how you spin it, Zimmerman was the instigator. Had he not been following Martin, the 17 year old would have made it home safely. Zimmerman, even if he was well-intended, handled the situation with no respect towards Martin’s dignity as a person. Not only did he profile Trayvon based on his appearance, he treated him as though he were already guilty of a crime. This attitude is repugnant to a free society. Because of his misdeeds, a young man was shot dead, perhaps Zimmerman is not guilty of second degree murder, but how can you think the law should not hold him at least partially responsible? Let me get this straight: you can threaten someone, and when they fight you, you can just shoot them if you are loosing and get away scot-free? (such provocative behavior by a CC-er will surely be capitalized by the gun control crowd, after all it’s much less likely that Zimmerman would have gotten out of the car and followed Martin had he not had a gun)

Alas, to my horror, too many Daily Paul users think not just that, but also deem Zimmerman a hero, a great citizen and man. One person declared they wished Zimmerman would be neighborhood watch of his neighborhood!?! (apparently killing someone who is staying inside the gated community you are supposed to protect is a sign of good watchman-ship) This is a man who never became the cop he dreamed of being, so instead he carries a gun around and chronically reports things to the police. He is a self-appointed neighborhood watchman! These are the qualities of a man hungry for power and looking for trouble. I’m sure he’ll get a job offering at the NSA in a few years.

Moreover, the Daily Paul response has been toe-in-line with the talking points of the right-wing when it comes to the issues of drugs and race. You’d think these folks have never heard Ron Paul denounce drug-war propaganda or racial discrimination. Too many of you are participating in the vilification of this dead teenager based on selected internet posts and marijuana use! Also astonishing is the completely unnuanced and insensitive dismissal of the relevance of Martin’s race to the national discussion. Astonishingly, those of you who declare Martin’s race irrelevant are also the same ones attempting to legitimize Zimmerman’s actions because Martin fit the profile of wanted criminals, of which being black was an essential ingredient. He was being profiled and followed because he was young black man wearing a hoodie, forget the fact that it’s February and raining and the 21st century and the gated community has a significant population of black people. I mean it’s not like Trayvon was walking around a village in North Dakota where black people are only seen on television. Then many of you troll, “well Zimmerman is half-Hispanic so..” as if Hispanics can’t be racist. It’s not about Zimmerman’s race and it’s not about whether he is a racist, it’s about Martin’s race and whether it is just another coincidence that a young black male has been presumed to be criminal and shot dead for it. Black people experience America very differently than people of other races do. Martin’s death became a national story; it took on a higher meaning for black people—because they know all too well what it means to be looked at walking down a street and deemed suspicious. And they are frigging tired of it and they have a right to be! Your inability to understand that is atrocious. What’s next? Will they Daily Paul mock people in the Islamic world for protesting US imperialism?

When I tried to make these points, I was met with vitriolic denunciations and name-calling. Among other things, I was accused a “Democrat,” an “idiot” and an Al Sharpton echoer. I was not personally offended, just very disappointed: this close-minded hostility does not belong on the DailyPaul! These are the very “mob-rule” tactics that you denounce the left for adopting. Both sides are guilty of demagoguery and manipulation. As libertarians, we ought to transcend the partisan fray. We ought to understand both sides and point out the truth in both. We ought to frame the issue in Natural Law. We ought to protect the second amendment by punishing those who abuse it. We need not buy into the racial politics of the left but we ought to acknowledge the legitimacy of the origins of their grievances. And we ought to always insist on the dignity of the individual as an individual. You may still be glad Zimmerman was acquitted, but don’t pretend that it would be un-libertarian to think otherwise.



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Yet

You are here telling us what happened

you are a troll

For the 10th time, that is NOT what I am doing. I am here saying that we do not know what happened - you are the one with a narrative you are trying to defend.

Yet you fit the description

Yet you fit the description of Troll to the "T".

There is the response of a person lacking any valid arguement

Everything you have stated goes against evidence from the 9-11 call to the eyewitness, yet your narrative is the correct one in your mind only. You have provided nothing to the conversation that would make one change their mind had they seen the evidence, and you continue to argue doen to name calling for lack of any valid argument to the contrary. This is pure, unadulterated emotion, and you may deny it all you want, but your argument is falling apart day by day.

Always remember:
"It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds." ~ Samuel Adams
If they hate us for our freedom, they must LOVE us now....

Stay IRATE, remain TIRELESS, an

Well...

....what pisses me off is people who come in here slamming people about Liberty, yet try to equate a lawful act by one as something that can result in an unlawful act by another and be perfectly fine.

chuch, you seem to be

chuck, you seem to be confused about what we are saying. You are overly emotional and not using reason. Take a few steps back and what we are saying is that nobody knows what really happened - you detest that notion and i do not understand why

Show me the non facts....

...that I'm talking about.

because the "unlawful act"

because the "unlawful act" was provoked by the person doing the "lawful act" before he did such "lawful act"

So...

....a lawful act is worth assault. Nice

I can walk into a bank (lawful), rob it (unlawful)......everyone is good....nothing else needs said. Hey, they provoked me. They had money, I didn't. I needed to get paid.

I COULD simply walk away, get a job, and better myself.

But going back seemed so fun!

After the punch, where Zimmerman went down, it was morally imperative for Martin to get away and call the police. Since he didn't, Zimmerman now has self defense. And this is just based on the "Zimmerman hit first" deal.

Some decisions have consequences, and not all of them are rainbows and kittens.

you really miss the point

i'm not defending trayvon's attack i am placing it within the circumstances of the scene, which when considered place some blame on zimmerman. if you are talking a whole lot of smack about my dead mother and i make it clear that i want you to stop, and you keep doin it, escalating it and then i beat you up for it, yea you can pull out your gun and shoot me because i initiated the violence, but don't act like you weren't being an insensitive asshole and aren't somewhat guilty of starting the fight.

Nobody

Nobody said it is perfectly fine - you are being overly defensive. I clearly said they both made mistakes and both idiots.

If you want to know the biggest shame, watch this - if you believe in the things dailypaul stands for - then you will recognize it as truth....
http://stormcloudsgathering.com/the-blunt-truth-about-the-tr...

No....

...those throwing around the "hero worship" are being defensive. I don't hear much about anyone saying you folks are hero worshiping Martin. Most are defending the act of defending themselves

The lines are clearly drawn.

The lines are clearly drawn. The left is rallying around Trayvon - the right is rallying around Zimmerman. Due to the divisive nature of our 2 party system, this is common. It's always good vs evil for liberals and neocons. I did not say you personally were hero worshiping but you seem to have implicated yourself

Really...

...show me that as well.

The Reason

Because you make no valid arguments. You are basing your conclusions exclusively on emotion, and that doesn't go over well around here.

Dear Family Member

I am sorry for your loss.

I am not alone. We are sorry for your loss. This is a tragedy and there's no winners, in this we all lost something. We lost a young man. That is a heavy cost.

As I speak for the like-minded, we do not hate you, we don't know exacly what we can do to help. So you tell us. What can we do?

Is there any way we can help?

Beyond that, I have lost people to tragedy and every day. Every day. Every little day helps relearn how to just put one foot in front of the other. As we teach ourselves to walk again.

I put the blessings of my ancestors upon you. May you grow strong and be restored.

I am Smudge Pot. I am of the Oyate. And don't listen to the negs and negative voices. Those who cast you down are the talkers. We are the doers.

Be brave, be brave, the Myan pilot needs no aeroplane.

What if TM was ur teenage daughter?

Now do u see how GZs following him is creepy?

If Martin were either of my daughters then this would be a non

Story, as they are smart enough not to assault anyone for following them.

Always remember:
"It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds." ~ Samuel Adams
If they hate us for our freedom, they must LOVE us now....

Stay IRATE, remain TIRELESS, an

I'm sure his profile of likely female criminals was

The reason GZ gave for involvement in the neighborhood watch was because of concerns his wife gave him over men cutting through their property who were acting more than suspicious.

Most women simply don't match the profile that a neighborhood watchman is that concerned about; even though your daughter just might fit in there. That's creepy enough!

Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them. - Frederick Douglass

I just can't fathom that

I just can't fathom that libertarians would support the notion that because some one fits a very general physical description of a crime that happened over a month prior (it's not like this was the night of the burglary people) he should be subjugated to such unneighborly and threatening treatment.

and here you are getting negged

gotta wonder sometimes......where did we miss the bus?

Be brave, be brave, the Myan pilot needs no aeroplane.

you were already

on the short bus.

I kid I kid.

"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."

Click Here To See The Candidates On The Record

I want one....

....this thing that tells you when crime is going to happen. And, yea, once a crime has been committed, it never happens again. Only one person has been murdered, robbed, raped, kidnapped......

Really?

"unneighborly and threatening treatment."

Following you in public is not a crime. That's what you can't get over, it's a public space. Zimmerman has every right to do as he pleases as long as he hurts no one else in a public place. Just because you don't like the fact that people take concern for their own well being doesn't mean it's a crime.

You know what I can't fathom? How someone who (presumably) considers themselves a libertarian would rather Zimmerman used the state to look after him and his property, would rather Zimmerman be subject to imprisonment or death for violating no natural rights of another person, and is obviously caught up on the fact that Zimmerman had a gun.

That sir, is what i can't fathom.

"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."

Click Here To See The Candidates On The Record

that's fine

you can say martin was wrong to attack (i disagree, especially given the circumstances of the night) but this opens the question of what is "public"? he's not following him around at the county fair. (what if it they were walking through abandoned woods, is that still "public"?) this is a gated community and no one else is around and its night, that's scary. you take a short cut and try to lose him and then he gets out of his car and heads in your direction. maybe you are concerned with some statute somewhere, but all common sense and basic decency shows zimmerman to be an aggressor. what is martin supposed to walk in his front door so this possible murderer or rapist or whatever can know where he is living..?

as for that gun comment, i don't get it. i'm concerned that this will be used to hurt the second amendment because most gun supporters aren't calling zimmerman out on his reckless and threatening behavior.

maybe you are concerned with

maybe you are concerned with some statute somewhere, but all common sense and basic decency shows zimmerman to be an aggressor.

So the police are correct to arrest people for filming them because it is aggression. Got ya Regardless of the "law" following someone doesn't hurt you or steal from you. It does nothing to you at all.

what is martin supposed to walk in his front door so this possible murderer or rapist or whatever can know where he is living..?

He can do whatever he wants as long as he doesn't initiate violence. It's called the non aggression principle. You don't harm people who aren't harming you.

i'm concerned that this will be used to hurt the second amendment because most gun supporters aren't calling zimmerman out on his reckless and threatening behavior.

I'm calling bullshit on this, you're deflecting. If Zimmerman had been convicted it would have been a huge blow for stand your ground, conceal carry, and self defense laws. No one denies that.

Tell me what Zimmerman having a gun has to do with anything?

"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."

Click Here To See The Candidates On The Record

cops are public servants and

cops are public servants and they are working, that analogy doesnt hold up.

If that's all you got from that long ass post

you're just trolling me now.
So cop's can't arrest people for aggression. Got yeah... Or could it be because filming in public isn't aggression.

You're view limits free speech and you can not reconcile that.

Don't bother responding if you don't want to address my post fully.

"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."

Click Here To See The Candidates On The Record

things

There are things that are legal but still morally wrong. As a small-government Constitution/Federalist, this should not be a new concept to you.

Taking someone's life should not be taken lightly if we understand natural rights. I cannot fathom a 16 yr old with no weapon doing enough harm to someone who is bigger and has a weapon which could have been used in a number of non-deadly ways. Let's face it - they were both idiots and media has used this opportunity to distract and divide us.

There are things that are

There are things that are legal but still morally wrong.

Absolutely! I just don't find it morally objectionable to refuse to ask for the state to provide for my safety. If you walk around my home, you better take heed.

A public area is a public area, if i have nothing better to do then that's my business. It doesn't harm you or steal from you. If Zimmerman had followed Martin onto Martin's property this would be an entirely different case. I'm an anti-federalist btw.

I cannot fathom a 16 yr old with no weapon doing enough harm to someone who is bigger and has a weapon which could have been used in a number of non-deadly ways.

Ok, no offense, but this is just a completely ignorant statement. He was 17 and taller than Zimmerman for one. The evidence shows Martin was on top of Zimmerman and beating him.

Secondly, what does zimmerman having a gun have to do with anything at all? (maybe you'll be the first person out of 12 that will actually answer me)

Thirdly, if you are shooting to wound, you shouldn't be carrying a gun. This isn't the movies. You can and will harm innocent people and you are endangering yourself and others. Not to mention you will be arrested and jailed for shooting to wound.

Let's face it - they were both idiots and media has used this opportunity to distract and divide us.

Sure.

Zimmerman's only an idiot so far in as he put himself in danger by pursuing Martin away from his property. Martin's an idiot for violating the natural rights of another person, and he paid the price with his life. Something every single person should expect when you decide to harm another person.

"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."

Click Here To See The Candidates On The Record